[Rick Rubin]
What was the first hip-hop line
you can remember hearing
where you realized
more was going on
in the words than what
was on the surface
-of what was being said?
-Mm.
The one that sti-- one that
comes to my mind immediately,
I did a, um...
Fresh Gordon was a producer
out of Brooklyn...
and a friend of Jazz.
And we used to go
by Gordon's house and make tapes
before we had any kind of thing
going on for ourself.
And we would make, I guess
mixtapes, that's what they--
You know, and these
freestyles we would do.
One time we went over,
and Jazz and Big Daddy Kane
was meant to-- now, like,
Kane is Kane in Brooklyn.
I don't think he has
an album out yet,
but he's performing with Biz,
and he's like writing songs
for Biz Markie
and everyone hearing
about this guy, Big Daddy Kane,
who's a rapper from Brooklyn.
And Jazz already had
a name in Brooklyn.
And so, through contacts,
these two guys
were meant to make
like a-- a mixtape together.
They were gonna do
a freestyle at Gordon's house,
and Jazz brought me.
"You want to get on it?"
He's like, "You mind
if my man get on it?"
And Kane's like,
"I don't care. Cool."
And I rap, and then Kane goes.
Kane comes setting it off.
This is before the record.
We don't-- this is
the first time we're hearing
these-- these lyrics.
"Setting it off, letting it off,
beginning, rough to the ending.
"You never been in,
to move the groove
with the smooth rap lord,
"bottle of juice,
rhymes are getting poured
"down your ear, crisp and clear,
as I prepare
"to wear, smear, and tear,
and then I'm outta here,
"with a mark left
that you can all cling,
"'cause rocking a party
is just a small thing.
"I rock the site
on a regular basis.
"I've been there
and there at the party.
The mic left the prints
and on it was a body."
And I'm like, okay.
"So put a quarter in your a*s
'cause you played yourself."
In the-- the arcade games,
you put a quarter in,
and blah-bah-bah.
and "you played yourself"
wasn't a popular phrase yet.
And I was like, wow! Whoa.
-Yeah.
-"So put a quarter in your a*s
-'cause you played yourself."
-Yeah.
And it's like, oh, okay.
I got a ways to go.
It just opened a new door in you
of what was possible.
Yeah. I remember leaving there
thinking,
oh, I got a ways to go.
You know, I'm not there yet.
But the strange thing
about that whole thing is it led
to me and Kane working together,
'cause that tape
started traveling.
-There was no internet,
obviously.
-Yeah.
So, if this tape
made it to Florida,
-it was like, how?
-Yeah.
-People was like--
-Tell me about mixtapes.
Tell me about the whole
mixtape culture.
So, you know, you just
created this--
It was a freestyle, really,
and you made a cassette tape.
And those days, those cassette
tapes was like equity.
It showed how cool you were.
That's why people
stayed up late night
recording pirate radio,
The Supreme Team Show...
-Yeah.
-...and all these things because
when you move with these tapes
and you put this on, it told--
It informed the world
who you were.
Yeah.
"You had a Supreme Team.
Wow, that's cool.
Where'd you get that from?"
"No, I stayed up.
Stretch and Bobbito."
Um, you know,
what was the one that was--
um, Chuck D was on
in Long Island?
-HBI?
-HBI.
And these tapes said something
about who you were.
-Yeah.
-So, this tape made it
up and down
the Eastern Seaboard.
Everyone was talking
about this tape,
and everyone's talking about,
"Who's the kid?"
They knew Kane, they knew Jazz.
-Yeah.
-They was like, "Who is the kid?
He's nice."
Everyone was asking,
"Who's the guy?"
-Yeah.
-"Who's that young guy?"
That's how me and Kane,
so Kane like Jazz.
"Yo, Jazz, you mind
if I work with, um, homeboy?"
And that's how me and Kane
started working.
I ended up going
on tour with Kane.
So, you went on tour with Kane
before you had any records?
-I had nothing out.
-Yeah.
-Years before I had
anything out.
-Wow.
-Yeah.
-Good experience?
Great experience.
Actually learned how to put
a show together watching him.
He would do things
like cut the record off.
-He wouldn't let it play
all the way.
-Yeah.
-He-- he's playing,
"setting it off, letting it--"
-Kept it exciting.
-He kept it exciting.
-Yeah.
So, he would just
switch records,
"Setting it off,
letting it off, beginning.
Mm, mm, mm."
And then go into another record,
and it was like, "What?"
-Yeah.
-Not that quick, but, you know.
-Yeah, yeah, yeah.
-Like he was cutting
records off,
going to another record, and it
was driving the crowd insane,
'cause he had so many records
he could play like that.
He didn't have one record.
I remember one time
he had, like, the Top 8 at 8,
he had like six records
out of the eight.
-Wow.
-You know, when he had
Smooth Operator
and Warm It Up, Kane,
and he was the first rapper
that I was seeing, like,
dominate radio
in this space like that,
with like, more than one.
Like, Run-DMC dominated,
they had Sucker M.C.
And then, they came back later
and they had It's Like That,
or they had, like,
one at a time.
He had multiple
at the same time.
What's the first time
you remember hearing hip-hop
from outside of New York?
I think it was Ice-T or--
either Ice-T or N.W.A,
around-- around there.
'Cause Ice-T was out
for a long time...
-He was out before them--
-...but we-- we didn't
really hear about him
-in New York so much.
-Yeah.
-I wasn't aware
of Ice-T until later.
-Yeah.
When you heard N.W.A,
what was your reaction?
This was incredible, it felt
like Richard Pryor albums.
-Yeah.
-It's-- I felt like,
should we be listening to this?
It was like...
-Dangerous.
-Dangerous. Yeah.
I actually visited the studio
when they were making
Straight Outta Compton.
-Really?
-Yes.
-Wow.
-That was the first time
I was really around
a lot of g*ns in hip-hop.
-Mm-hmm.
-Before that,
it wasn't really like that.
Right.
A lot of people
with a lot of g*ns.
-Right.
-It was different.
Yeah. And you-- you listen
to those early Dre records,
you realize the-- the influence
that Public Enemy
and Hank Shocklee.
-For sure.
-That's what he was--
he was trying to make.
"All of us are in da--"
[singing melody]
He was making Public Enemy,
and, like, he was-- he was
emulating Hank Shocklee in it.
Yeah, and when Ice Cube
left N.W.A, he made a record
with The b*mb Squad.
-Exactly.
-Exactly.
He was like, "Oh, I'm gonna go
to who you looking to."
-Yeah.
-"Who you look up to,
-I'm gonna make
the record with," and it worked.
-Yeah.
It's also interesting
that The b*mb Squad and Dre,
even though Dre was inspired
by The b*mb Squad,
-they sound
nothing alike, really.
-Exactly, yeah.
-Yes, there's inspiration.
-Uh-huh.
But it's a whole
different thing.
Yeah, because his music bed,
where their music bed
was James Brown.
-Yes.
-It was the basic music bed
-that they drew from.
-Yes.
He was drawing from
Parliament-Funkadelic
'cause it's the music
of the West Coast.
-Yes.
-It's the sounds
that he was listening to.
His application of it
was over that music bed.
It was the same
and it sounded different
because he had a-- he had
a different music bed to it.
The other difference I'd say
is that the Public Enemy sound,
Chuck liked the dissonance.
Like, Chuck liked
that it was noisy and crazy.
-Mm-hmm.
-And I don't think
Dre's stuff is like that.
-Yeah.
-Like, Dre may have
had a high line.
-Right.
-You know, a high synth line,
but it-- everything was smoother
-and nicer on the ears.
-Right.
-Because his music bed
was smoother.
-Yeah.
-Whereas Chuck's was more
like almost punk rock.
-And-- and--
and it's sunnier.
The weather had a lot
to do with it.
-Absolutely.
-Who wants to be
hearing high things
-when it's sunny outside?
-Yeah.
You wanna...
[singing melody]
♪ One, two, three,
and to the four ♪
It worked
because it's sunny out.
You can't be like,
"All of us are in danger.
I want to fight--"
it's like, that's...
Have you ever been
misunderstood?
Yeah, sure.
All the time. Yeah.
Rap is misunderstood, right?
So, my voice is definitely--
being one of the people
at the forefront of this genre,
I've been misunderstood a lot.
-Mm-hmm.
-Yeah, definitely.
Definitely.
This music is just all about,
like, glorifying the lifestyle,
or all about money and cars,
or all about being--
it's like, you're not listening.
Oh, Renegade is,
"Do you fools listen to music
or do you skip through it,"
was like one of the lines,
is like everyone talk about.
Like, it's one of the lines
that carried on, like, when
people are trying to explain it.
It's like,
"Do y'all listen to music
or do y'all skim through it?"
You're not listening, obviously,
because you're picking up
on buzzwords.
-Yeah, taken out of context.
-Everything taken
out of context.
Money, Cash, Hoes,
"Money, Cash, Hoes."
Listen to that song
or 99 Problems.
-Yeah.
-You would come out
with a different thing.
That song is not about
what you think it's about.
Yeah, it's easy to miss it
if you're not paying attention.
-Mm-hmm.
-The savvy necessary...
to understand
the complexity of the verses.
I can't fault people.
-But they are missing out.
-Mm-hmm.
-That's right.
-They're really missing out.
That's great, that's--
that's a great thing to say.
-It's true.
-Yeah, yeah.
-Most people don't know
the lyrics.
-No.
Listened to a song 1,000 times
and don't know the lyrics.
You know, like a song like, um,
Bridge Over Troubled Water.
-Mm-hmm.
-I've been hearing
that song my whole life.
I never knew the words.
And I did a cover of it
with Johnny Cash,
and when he sang it,
it was the first time
-I ever understood the words.
-Right.
I nev-- it never
registered before.
And part of the reason
was Simon and Garfunkel
have these beautiful,
like, operatic voices
and they're singing in a way
where the sound of their voice
is so beautiful,
it's not really about the words.
-Yeah.
-It's about
this beautiful melody.
And Johnny doesn't have
that kind of a voice.
-Mm-hmm.
-He's telling you a story.
-Mm-hmm.
-And when you hear him
tell the story,
-you know that story.
-Right.
And you believe the story
'cause that's his gift
as an artist is if he says it,
you know it's true...
-Right, right.
-...because he talks
with the authority of truth.
So, I understood it
for the first time,
-and it was a great experience.
-"Johnny Cash, I'm a real G.
I cut myself today
to see if I still bleed."
-It's on a song called
Nickels and Dimes.
-Yeah.
I was trying to think
of that earlier when I was like,
I've always been
a Johnny Cash fan, I'm--
"I cut myself today
to see if I still bleed.
Johnny Cash, I'm a real G."
[both laughing]
Um, have you ever been betrayed?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
As I told you, my friend--
a friend of mine shot
three times at me
from this distance.
He tried to k*ll me.
It's a-- there's a really long
story about entitlement,
was a reoccurring thing
in-- in my life.
We had a town...
and these guys
came to our town.
Guys I knew from the projects,
from Marcy, from Brooklyn.
And we set 'em up
with a situation.
And my friend after a while
believed it was his situation,
but it was really the guys
that was with us
that was helping them
and working with them.
And I'm still working
with the guy.
And he thinks, "Why are you
trying to cut my throat?
You're working with my guy."
I'm like, "Yeah,
but he's not your guy.
I gave you the guy," it was--
And then when I say
it's-- it's a reoccurring thing,
'cause it happens within
the music business.
When you hear
Kanye made the song,
"I told Jay I made a song
with Coldplay.
Next thing I know--" he's got
a song called Big Brother.
"Next thing I know,
he got a song with Coldplay."
It was over most--
if I betrayed him
by having a song.
Chris is my friend.
I introduced him.
-[chuckles]
-But that's how he says it.
And then, the world hears that,
and they take it like,
"Jay fouled.
Like, he tried to..."
It's not off the table that
I'm doing a song with my friend
-'cause you did a song.
-Mm-hmm.
But that's the sort of thinking.
That's why I'm saying
it's a reoccurring thing.
But you could put yourself
in his shoes and understand it.
-I can. Doesn't make it right.
-No.
-Yeah.
-I-- I would say, we never
really know what's right.
-Yeah.
-You know what's right for you.
Yeah, but part of it
is an entitlement.
-Mm-hmm.
-We don't own people.
We don't own people.
He could do 1,000 songs
with 1,000 artists.
-Whether you did the song
first or not, who cares?
-Yeah.
So, he my friend, has a guy.
He likes him
'cause the guy's good.
I put him with a guy
that was amazing.
So, he thinks it's his guy.
And now, we're arguing over it.
And that's when
the sh**ting happened,
and, like, we're--
we're fighting over that.
And the guy who was
my best friend at the time,
was the guy who brought him
down there against my wishes.
I already knew
this was gonna happen.
It's like, that's not a person
that you bring where we are.
You have to-- we're over here
thinking every day,
-how do we stay out of trouble?
-Yes.
How do we stay low-key?
And this guy's Sonny...
from Godfather.
Like, he's a hothead.
If any problem's gonna happen,
he solves his problems...
his g*n is coming out.
Hence the three shots, right?
Like, that's how he solves
his problem.
With a problem, the g*n
is coming out, for sure.
And we're thinking men.
We're different.
Yeah.
Don't bring that
into this element.
But because he wanted to be cool
with this guy,
he brings him down anyway
against my wishes,
and this is how
the whole thing happens.
So, betrayed by...
one friend I grew up with,
and my best friend at the time.
And that was just
the beginning of betrayal.
But, yeah, I've been betrayed
many, many, many times.
Did either of those
ever get resolved or not?
-No, it...
-Too much.
-Too much.
-Yeah.
Too much. That's--
-That's too much on the thing.
-Yeah. No, I understand.
[chuckles] Yeah.
The best thing I could--
the best way-- and this
is an act of friendship.
The best way I can resolve it
is by not acting
-on doing something, too.
-Yes.
-I just remove myself.
-Yes, no revenge.
-No revenge.
-Yeah.
-"I love you."
-"Move on."
That's the highest form
of love I can...
-Yeah.
-...I can-- I can show you.
Have you ever been the betrayer?
Yeah.
-Yeah, um...
-What would motivate that?
No-- no malice,
not-- not consciously.
You know, it has to be,
again, emotional IQ,
like an oversight.
And I have a--
I have a thing where
if the communication
isn't there,
a lot is left--
left to assumption.
So, if you put someone
in a certain box
without having the conversation,
you don't know what's happening.
And obviously, in relationships,
that's easy, right?
Not to be flippant about it,
but that was like, again,
not having the emotional IQ
to, like, properly nurture
a relationship until now.
I'm just trying to, like,
create a scenario
where someone could
feel like that, like--
like I betrayed 'em.
It's like, if there's
no communication
and I feel like someone's done
something to me
and I put 'em in a--
a certain box,
everything's off the table.
I don't have any reason
to be loyal to you.
But not like I'm trying
to hurt you, just like,
-you're in a certain box--
-You've moved on.
And I move on like that.
Irv Gotti one time.
Irv, who was like my DJ...
in London, like,
it was like early-- early days.
I've done everything for Irv.
I do a song,
and then his artists
start talking crazy about me.
So, he's allowed that,
-you know what I mean?
-Yeah.
So, then he tried to sign Nas,
and at the height of our beef,
I did a commercial with 50 Cent.
That's betrayal because
that's his-- that's his rival.
But in my-- in my estimation,
I'm justified in it,
'cause I put him
in a certain box already.
You already showed your hand
and you already done moves
to take you out of the space
of a person
that I have to have loyalty
and integrity to.
But it's still betrayal.
Did you ever discuss it
with him or no?
-Yeah, yeah, yeah.
-And better or not?
Did it ever get worked out?
Irv is like a serial
line-stepper.
He'll never stop.
It's just who he is.
Like, he'll calm down
for a second, and the minute
he gets a little bit of air,
he's gonna do whatever.
He's just ambitious that way.
He's gonna knock you--
he gonna knock all the china
off the table
if you invite him to dinner.
-Just who he is.
-And if you know who it is,
you know how to-- it's like--
-You're not invited to dinner.
-Yeah.
-[chuckles]
-And it's okay.
And that's okay.
But we-- I still, you know.
A couple years ago, I help--
walked in a room
for a meeting for him
to get a movie deal with BET.
-Yeah.
-He's-- he's still my guy.
But it's-- it's changed
and it's different.
And I know you're gonna
knock the china off.
You can't help yourself.
Call me for anything,
I'll-- I'll help him out.
But as far as like the dinner,
no dinner.
-Understood.
-Yeah.
[Rick] Tell me the Nas story.
How did the rivalry start
and how did it end?
[Jay-Z] I think it just ended,
it just...
It fizzled out at the end.
And I-- you know, the whole--
during the whole thing,
we had so much respect
for one another.
Um, it got personal,
but it wasn't really personal.
-Yeah.
-It was just like
more of competition.
-Yeah.
-From my lens,
I came out with
Reasonable Doubt,
and then Stoute
was in both of our ear,
you know, who was a friend
of both of ours, but he's--
he's a competitive chap,
that Stoute. [chuckles]
And I come out
with Reasonable Doubt.
Nas come out in '94,
I come out in '96.
Nas was supposed to be
on my first album.
He just never showed up
to the studio.
And I'm not really
a guy like that,
like you just say you come in,
and don't come.
So, I-- I moved him over there.
-You can't count on him.
-Can't count on him.
Not gonna ask him ever again.
-That was that.
-Yes.
Never asking him again,
but not a problem.
-No, no, completely understood.
-We don't have a problem.
-Yeah.
-Never asking him
for anything again.
That's the end of it.
And then, on his second album...
he came out, and, like,
one of his lyrics was like, uh--
everyone know I had the Lexus
with the TV sets.
And he goes,
"Lex with TV sets the minimum.
Ill sex, adrenaline."
Like, he was taking,
what I perceived to be shots.
-So, that began like a Cold w*r.
-Do you think it was shots?
I'm almost sure it was shots.
-Could be.
-I'm 99% sure.
[chuckles]
And that-- that began like a--
like a Cold w*r of-- of sorts.
And then, you know,
it just escalated to a point
where it was like a-- a full-on,
like, just a battle.
-But no violence.
-Yeah.
-Rap battle.
-And-- rap battle.
And then, we just--
we just moved on.
And now, we're like,
really good friends.
Would the competition have
made you both better, you think?
Oh yeah, definitely,
'cause you had to be sharp.
-You rose to the occasion.
-You had to rise
to the occasion.
And to his credit,
he really rose to the occasion.
I'll-- I'll say that.
You know, I don't think
he was like--
I don't know
how interested he was
at being a recording artist
at that time.
Like, he would make a--
an album or something,
and he was just gone.
He would disappear.
And then after that, he was
making music on a regular basis.
I'm not saying
that I was the cause of it,
but, like, you--
I'm answering the question.
Like, I'm sure that it--
it lit a fire under him.
And for me,
I was rolling at the time.
This is Blueprint, you know,
Volume Two era.
I was, you know...
selling five,
six million records,
going on tour,
I was, like, unstoppable.
And it definitely kept me sharp
in that-- in that--
in that, uh, in that space.
How did you decide to do
Life and Times One,
Two, and Three, as opposed
to different album titles?
-Mm-hmm.
-And how do you decide to do
Blueprint One, Two, and Three?
Why the series
and why the threes?
I think the series started out
of-- of Godfather.
-I was a super fan of.
-Yeah.
I think that the idea
sparked from there,
and then once that happened,
it was like,
okay, continue another series.
I remember on Blueprint Three--
-that's the one with
the three bars on the cover?
-Mm-hmm, yeah.
It felt like there was a shift
in your sense
-of the graphics.
-Mm-hmm.
Like, up until then,
it was usually a photograph,
but this was like
a piece of art on the cover.
-That's different.
-Yeah. Yeah.
-Do you remember what changed?
-Yeah.
I started getting into art
at the time.
So, I start--
I was collecting art by then.
And my focus was
becoming more worldly.
If you listen to that album,
that's why all--
it has so many big records
on that album
'cause my intention...
and this was a thing that was--
that's fascinating for me,
is even when you set
your intention to do something,
even if you don't do the thing,
you typically reach your goal.
The intention that you set out,
even if you don't do it
the way you thought
you was gonna do it.
So, my intention with
Blueprint Three
was to make a world album.
-I reached out to Femi.
-Mm-hmm.
-Um, Fela's son.
-Mm-hmm.
Called him up, "Hey, man,
I'm gonna come there."
So, I was gonna go to Nigeria,
go to all these places,
-connect with musicians
in the town...
-Yes.
-...get all these sounds...
-Yes.
...and create this album.
I end up having
my biggest world album,
I make in New York.
A song about my hometown.
I didn't have to go anywhere.
-I made it about my hometown.
-Yes.
It was the song that went
everywhere around the world.
My biggest-selling single,
my first number-one single.
And it was the song
about my hometown,
'cause I set the intention that
I want to have a world album.
-And it was just a different
version of a world album.
-It's just a different version.
Like, I didn't do everything
I set out to do.
-Yeah.
-But it accomplished
the same exact thing,
-which is amazing.
-Yeah. Maybe better.
Yeah. Yeah.
Intention,
that's how strong it is.
[Rick] Yeah.
You have a line about, um,
-"This spiritual sh*t works."
-[chuckles] Yeah.
Tell me about that line
and what was going on.
You know, you grow up
all the time
thinking like, "What you on,
some spiritual sh*t,"
and bah-bah-bah, you know,
in your immature stage.
And then at some point,
you find, you know,
things happen.
Like, we're talking about
coincidence,
things like that and, you know.
The more--
the more living you do,
the more you tap into yourself
and the more you notice
something bigger than yourself.
And I was being funny there.
Like, you know, "This spiritual
sh*t really works."
And you, like,
you-- you're talking
to yourself really, right?
In that line,
I'm talking now to my wife,
"This spiritual sh*t
really works."
But it's like, all the things
that we didn't believe in
that we was doing.
"Therapy?
"That's for crazy people.
Not gonna be in therapy.
Are you..."
My nightmare is to talk
to someone.
-Right? Back to--
-Yes.
Back to everything we said.
That's-- that's--
If you wanted to--
If I had to, like,
describe a nightmare to me...
talking to a stranger about
my most personal business,
-insane.
-Sounds insane.
-That's insanity.
-Yeah.
And a nightmare
for me, personally,
as someone who come
from where I come from...
-Yes. Yes.
-...never speaking about
my personal business...
and never speaking to strangers.
-[laughing]
-[Rick] Yeah.
It's like, everything.
So, like, that's the--
that's pretty much
what the line is saying,
like, doing things
that you wouldn't have done,
and be like, "Oh, man."
And you grow and be like,
"No, actually,
that is the right--
that actually helped us."
[Rick] Yeah.
Do you remember the first time
you sat down to do therapy?
I don't think it was in person,
I think it was on the phone
-the first couple times.
-Yeah.
And were you able
to do it at first?
-No, I was-- the mo--
-Yeah.
-It was the most
difficult thing ever.
-Yeah.
I remember the first time
I went to therapy.
It was a long time ago,
but-- but I remember
I didn't know--
I didn't know how I felt.
I didn't know how
to talk at all.
-I mean, I knew how to talk
to my friends.
-Yeah. Yeah.
But talking about me
and what was going on in me,
I had no idea.
And then, like,
your therapist, like, push you
to do, like, sh*t
you would not do.
"Okay, well, have
the conversation with your dad
if he was here."
I'm not gonna pretend
on the phone
and be talking about that.
This sh*t is not natural.
[chuckles]
It's just-- all-- everything
was, like, just counterintuitive
to everything that I've done
my whole life.
You know, and then when
you surrender to the process,
it becomes a different thing,
but that takes a minute.
It's like...
-Absolutely. Absolutely.
-Knocking the ice off
the-- the sculpture,
and, you know,
stripping the armor,
and all the cliches
that people say.
But that's what
that line's about.
[Rick] Tell me about, um,
the difference
between your recording process
and your wife's
recording process.
My wife's recording process
is wild.
She'll record her vocal...
and then she'll stack it up
a thousand times.
She'll try-- Her creativity,
a lot of it is in the melodies,
and the harmonies.
She'll find some
amazing harmonies,
and she'll stack that
just to find that right thing,
and she'll try anything.
Like, she'll scream, "Ah!"
[growls]
And it's-- for me, I'm like,
it's kind of liberating.
I'm-- I'm kinda like, uh...
uh, like, "Damn,
I wish I could do that."
I would be too conscious
to try anything.
Like too-- too self-conscious...
-Yeah.
-...to try, uh, to be screaming.
"Ah!"
And then, she get
these great pieces.
And mine's pretty much
my voice straightforward.
And I'll play in that, you know.
[vocalizing]
And I'll play with the music
and melody
more so than characters.
I just say her thing
is way more layered.
I do-- I'll run the verse.
Sometimes I'll run it down
one time.
Maybe throw an ad lib
on there, maybe not.
-Mm-hmm.
-You know, depending on how raw
the vocal sounds,
and-- and I'm done, you know.
-So yours, would you say
is more spontaneous?
-Yeah.
-Or improvisational?
-Yeah.
And hers is much
more layered, much more.
-Yeah.
-Like, again, 30, 40 harmonies
-in different places.
-And does she know the song
before she's singing it, or...?
-Yeah. Yeah.
-So, it's already written.
-Yeah.
-So, the processes
are really different.
-Mm-hmm.
-But you each found
the way that works for you.
Yeah.
Tell me the feeling in your body
when you record something,
like you finish doing a verse,
and you like--
like, you know you did good.
-Mm-hmm.
-Tell me what
that experience is.
-Euphoria.
-Yeah.
Just like, it feels like
you're solving something.
Like, yes, this didn't exist
a second ago.
This is unbelievable,
like, you know,
it's like this feeling of,
like, accomplishment,
euphoria, like...
-and amazement.
-Yeah.
Like, wow,
where'd this come from?
You know, still reverence of it.
Like, still is like-- almost
like I'm separated from it.
-Like, man,
where'd this come from?
-That's the beauty.
-That's the beauty,
the reverence.
-Yeah.
-What a great word.
-Yeah.
-And then, we play it
-Yeah.
And the reverence
is not of yourself.
-No, it's of the thing.
-The thing.
-[chuckles] Yeah.
-It's like this thing.
-Yeah.
-Yes, it came out of me.
But this thing here,
can you believe that this
is here in the world now?
Yeah. This didn't exist
And listen,
we're listening to it.
-Thank you. Thank you.
-[chuckles] I do that often.
-Same.
-Finish one little song, like...
-Thank you.
-Thank you.
-Yeah.
-Yeah.
Would you say the stakes are
higher for you now in your life,
-or when you were on the street?
-Oh, definitely on the streets.
-This is like...
-Now you're playing
with house money, it's okay?
Yeah, exactly.
It's like, that is nothing.
You gonna cut me off the radio?
Okay.
-[laughing]
-That's-- that's why
I was conditioned for that,
-'cause it was like...
-'Cause now it's not
life and death.
"What are you talking about?
You gonna take me off the radio?
"They tried to take me
off the Earth.
-Are you kidding me?"
-Yeah.
Do what you would do,
do as you may.
-Yeah.
-It wasn't a threat to me.
-Yes.
-The things that they believed
that they had weight over,
their bargaining chip,
didn't mean a thing to me.
They lost all power
when they were speaking to me
'cause they were speaking
to somebody who was like,
"I don't care what you do."
It doesn't matter to me.
That's nothing
compared to what this is.
I came here with nothing.
-I'm way up.
-Yeah.
I'm way, way up.
Was there any point in time
where you lost faith
in the process,
where you thought,
"This is not gonna
keep going good"?
Or, like, bumps in the road,
or anywhere along the way
-where it felt like open--
-There was bumps,
but we just adjusted.
Again, we were prepared.
This was nothing.
This was like child's play
based on the things
we had to overcome.
You know,
Reasonable Doubt came out,
was a darling in--
on the streets,
and culturally,
everyone loved it.
It didn't sell
a bunch of records,
but it was the album.
Then, we tried to create
commercial success
with Volume One.
One-- One, I wish
I could get back.
-We spoke about regrets,
that's a--
-Yeah.
If I could get Volume One back,
that one I would wanna do over.
I want a mulligan on that.
Because the first song
I made for that,
which is the last song
that Biggie heard,
was, Streets Is Watching.
And I remember playing Big
Streets Is Watching,
and his mouth just like...
And then he said,
"Play it again."
I played it again.
"Play it again."
Played it about five times.
I gave him the tape.
"Just keep it, man, like..."
And he looked at me.
And he was like...
"Whole album gonna sound
like that?"
I said...
-[laughing]
-Wow.
-I was like, "Yep."
-Wow.
And then, you know,
I made a couple records
trying to mimic that, like,
commercial success,
and that wasn't for me.
-Yeah.
-I think it came to, like,
number two,
or something like that.
It was a graduation
from the last album...
-Yes.
-...as far-- in terms of sale.
But as far as like the feeling,
it wasn't the same
because everyone knew
I was trying to do something
that wasn't naturally me.
So, right after that
we went and we made a s--
the movie Streets Is Watching.
We got "The Streets" right back,
so we took all the great records
and just got rid of the other--
and made it with those records.
So, Streets Is Watching
was on there,
Where I'm From,
uh, You Must Love Me.
-Yeah.
-So, we took all the good pieces
and shot visuals around 'em.
-Yeah.
-So, whenever there was like
this second guessing
and things like that,
those hardships,
we just adjusted,
because we were so used
to adjusting to life.
It was just second nature
to say,
"Okay, that's not working,"
not harp on that.
Yeah, you never felt like
it was out of your control.
-Yeah.
-Because you could just
make the next move.
"Okay, what do we do?
How do we fix this?
Let's get in the room.
Let's talk about this."
Boom.
Streets Is Watching thing.
Everyone loved it.
It was like a straight-to-DVD...
-Yeah.
-...VHS underground thing
that just--
"Streets" was just back.
-And then, Volume Two.
-And then after that,
it was Lights Out.
And then Volume Two came,
and I was like,
"Oh, okay.
I know how to make songs."
It's not compromise
to reach a certain audience.
It's not about being
a commercial artist per se.
It's about melody.
I know how to make great melody,
but it'd be about...
what I'm about.
I know how to source that.
And that's when
Hard Knock Life came,
and then, Can I Get A... came.
Those big records from there,
because now I got it.
I know how to make songs now.
Hard Knock Life was
the first song of yours I heard.
That's the first one
I remember hearing.
-Right.
-Tell me the story
of making that.
-Did you hear the sample first?
-Yeah.
-It was a great story
about that.
-Tell me.
It's '97.
I'm on Puffy No Way Out Tour.
I'm going on super early
with the vest on,
you know, because it came
a thing 'cause of the cover.
And they treated me horrible.
It was like closet for
a dressing room and all that.
And Puff knew who I was.
So, he kept intervening like,
"Yo, make sure," boom-boom.
But only so many times
I'm not that kinda--
Remember, I'm a different guy,
so I'm not gonna let Puffy
come talk to me.
And-- and at the time
it was like getting--
I had a couple guys
with me still,
so it was contentious.
I was like, "I'm not gonna
mess this guy's tour up,"
you know, 'cause that's where
this is going.
-Like, we're not having
any disrespect.
-Yeah.
And it's gonna be
a fight one day,
and it's-- maybe a stabbing.
So, I tell him after New York,
I'm leaving the tour.
When we get to New York,
I'm playing New York,
and then I'm gone,
I'm off the tour.
One of the last shows,
I perform,
and I'm walking off stage
and I hear...
[singing melody]
♪ It's a hard knock life ♪
...with this beat under it.
I'm like, literally, like,
getting off the stage,
literally stopped everyone,
"Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait."
-What's that?
-What is that?
Yeah.
Get off the stage,
around the back to the DJ.
-Kid Capri was the DJ.
-Yeah.
He was in the house.
So, we go around.
You know the hallways.
-Yeah.
-We go, like, by the dressing
rooms and all that.
And we go to the other opening.
"Yo!
Come here."
Comes down in the tunnel.
"Who is that?"
Mark 45 used to make
these instrumentals.
-Yeah.
-And one of the fa--
most famous one is that...
[singing melody]
-Yeah, yeah.
-And he would just put out
an instrumental.
And he made this instrumental
with Hard Knock Life.
So, now, "Mark the 45 King."
"Give me his number."
He was in Maryland
or Virginia somewhere.
-He was-- you know, he was off
the scene of music.
-Yeah.
And...
I find him, I go...
I don't know if he--
I don't know if he came back
and we made it in New Jersey.
I'm almost sure
that I went to him.
-Mm-hmm.
-I didn't make this
in the studio.
Like, I made it
in like a house.
-Mm-hmm.
-So, he must have come back
and we made it in-- in his house
or somewhere.
And I knew it.
I got this tape.
Now I start playing it.
I remember pulling up on Juan,
who was-- who was a continuing
character in the story.
-Yeah.
-And we were in--
he was higher than me.
He was in the truck,
he was in the Range Rover.
I think I must have been
in a-- like a coupe.
And I remember looking up to him
and saying,
"This record is gonna take us
all around the world.
It's gonna change our lives."
And he's listening to the song
like, "You sure?"
I'm like, "Trust me,
this is the one."
I remember playing that song
for Lyor,
and Lyor says to me...
I'm excited.
Like, "No, no, no.
You don't understand.
This is it."
Remember, I did
Reasonable Doubt.
-I did Volume One
where I tried it.
-Yes.
I'm like, "No, no, no.
I got it now."
-Yes.
-"I know what I'm doing."
-Yes. Yes.
-"I got it. I got it."
And I played it.
And he was like,
"Jay, don't do that.
"You can't put that record out,
it's a Broadway show.
"And it's so, like--
you're going to ruin
your street credibility."
[laughing]
And I took the tape
and I was like,
"I'm gonna show you."
And, two, I don't have
street credibility.
I'm from the streets.
-That's different.
-It's different.
-Yes.
-I don't have
street credibility.
-No, you don't need it.
-I don't need it.
-There's no such thing.
-Yeah. Yes.
Either you're from
the streets or not.
-Yeah, that tells you it's fake.
-[chuckles] Yeah.
-Yeah, it's fake.
-Yeah.
And left the office, and then...
-the rest happened.
-Yeah.
First rap album,
number one five weeks in a row.
-Amazing.
-You know, et cetera,
et cetera, six million.
And that was it.
We were gone from there.
I remember when we finished
our song for The Black Album,
we had worked--
I remember that week,
tried a few different things.
I was just making
some different beats.
I don't make beats. This was--
I hadn't made
a hip-hop record in 10 years.
And I tried some different
things, you know, like,
"Oh, try something else,
try something else."
And then, finally,
you came in and was like,
"Okay, let's do this one."
And then, you wrote the words.
And then when we finished it,
I remember you saying,
"Do you know what this is?"
-[chuckles]
-And I said, "No."
-[both laughing]
-And you're like,
"We'll-- I'll show you."
It's like,
"This is more important
than you realize."
Mm-hmm.
And I had no idea, you know,
I'm just making--
-I just make music.
-Yeah.
But you definitely--
-you said it, you called it.
-Feel those, you feel 'em.
-You feel 'em.
-You called it.
Like, there's certain ones
when you make.
I remember making "New York,"
and I called--
'cause I was going to put
Mary on "New York" first.
-Yeah.
-But because of the keys,
the... [singing melody]
-Yep.
-I thought it would be
a better performance
with Alicia because she can
really play the piano,
and it was like such a major
part of the song,
the piano licks.
And I called her and I was like,
"I promise you, this song,
"if it's not considered better
than the Frank Sinatra version,
"it would be talked about
in the same way.
It would be up there."
-And I know that sound crazy.
-Crazy.
She was like, "What?"
-Yeah.
-Like, I'm telling you.
You know, you just know
them certain ones.
You don't know
all the time, you know.
I didn't know when--
I didn't know Big Pimpin'
-would be as big as it would be.
-Yeah.
-I knew when I heard that.
-I didn't know.
-I just thought it was--
I liked it.
-I knew when I heard that one.
-Obviously, I thought
it was great...
-Yeah, yeah, yeah.
...and I love Pimp C's
performance on there,
-and I thought it was--
-Yeah, it's just so catchy.
-It was so-- it was so good.
-So crazy ca--
-and the video's so great.
-But, and it's called
"Big Pimpin'."
-Yeah.
-You know, I didn't think
that it would--
it would be a pop record.
-You know what I'm-- like,
it's called "Big Pimpin'."
-Yes, yes, yes.
And we're talking about BLADs,
which is Blades.
They call 'em Blades
'cause they look
-like they chopping grass.
-Mm-hmm.
-So, they call they rims blades.
-Yeah.
So, I'm like,
we're talking about rims.
The song is called
"Big Pimpin'."
-Yeah. It's too inside.
-It's too inside.
-Yeah.
-I knew the feeling
of Hard Knock Life,
everyone could relate to.
-Yes.
-Everyone could relate
to being an underdog
feeling like they getting,
"instead of treated,
"they getting tricked.
Instead of kisses,
we're getting kicked."
Who can't relate to that?
That's-- I knew everyone
could relate to that.
You know, I knew everyone could
relate to the feeling of hope
in Empire State of Mind.
"Oh, I can go somewhere
and I can make it?"
-Yeah.
-Like I could be some--
♪ New York, concrete jungle
where dreams are made of ♪
"There's nothing you can't do."
You tell a person there's noth--
like my mother
saying, "You can be anything."
You tell a person that? Oh.
They'll believe it.
I knew that-- that--
that had a message
-that could relate
to the entire world.
-Yeah.
I did not know Big Pimpin'.
But that tells how the world
changed because of hip-hop.
The world changed
to where Big Pimpin'
-could be a hit song.
-Yeah.
-Yes, this is true.
-That's what happened.
Yeah.
How is success different
than you envisioned it
before you had it?
Um...
it's-- yeah, it's way, way...
I-- it's-- there no way
I can envision any of this.
I thought I was gonna
have one gold album.
So, everything is different.
I envisioned having
a gold album...
one album,
and being able
to make a living.
I had no idea,
zero idea, that it--
it had no ceiling on it,
no limits, no governor.
What? What is this thing?
How powerful is this music?
-Yeah.
-How far can we go with this?
This-- this is-- this is wild.
I had no songwriter's heart,
I had no aspirations for that.
By the way, I didn't have
a dream to have a Grammy.
-Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
-You know, most musicians' dream
is-- was like, "I wanna perform
at the Grammys.
I wanna win a Grammy."
Obviously, a gold record,
like, that was part
of the dream.
I had one of them.
I had a gold record,
and everything else?
-Yeah, bonus.
-Everything is a change
above the gold record.
That was my goal and dream.
-Yeah.
-That's it.
The experience of success,
if you envisioned
what it would be like
to be successful in the world
versus the actual experience
of being successful
in the world...
is there any disconnect?
-I-- I can answer that
in a different way.
-Okay.
And I told my grandmother this.
My grandmother, again,
and she's like where my mom
get it from,
is a super proud woman.
You know, like,
she can-- she'll have
a heart attack quietly.
I remember,
she was sitting on the step,
and I know that's not
my grandmother.
She's sitting on the step
for a little too long.
-Yeah.
-She don't sit down
for that long.
And I was like,
"You okay? You good?"
I know.
Going back to body language.
-She doesn't--
-Something's up.
Something's wrong.
She don't do that.
But, you know,
let me calm this thing down.
Remember, I told you
how to turn it down
because we in the music business
and I'm not gonna die.
So, let me turn it down.
Maybe I'm reading
too much into it,
maybe she's just--
she is 89 at the time.
-She's 96 now.
-Wow.
She is 89.
She's sitting down.
Some point, she gotta sit down.
You know what, turn it off.
The next day, next afternoon
when I'm driving,
me and B,
we're going on a date.
We-- we're coming back
from a date, my phone rings.
Grandma's having a heart attack.
She's in the hospital.
I knew it.
Now, I'm mad at myself.
-I knew it.
-Something was wrong.
I knew it something was wrong.
Artery-- arteries was clogged,
so she wasn't getting
all the proper...
-Mm-hmm.
-...circulation, so she wasn't
getting the right oxygen,
and she was tired.
So, she won't tell you
when she's sick.
Yeah.
So, the way I explained it
to her was like,
you know, success for me,
I never wanted to be successful.
That was not part of the deal.
I never wanted to be famous.
In fact, it's a nightmare...
for me to be famous,
'cause that's not who I am.
I don't wanna be famous.
I never wanted to be famous.
I never wanted to do interviews.
I never wanted to do
any of that stuff.
I never let cameras
go around me.
Became part of the thing.
It became part of it.
So, part of how
I rationalize success is...
I can get you
any doctor in the world.
That's how I weigh it
against paparazzi
waiting outside my hospital
when I have my daughter,
and I can't have
that moment to myself,
where I gotta go hide
in the Hamptons
so I can just enjoy
my daughter outdoors
because I can't take her outside
because there's
So, in order for me
to stay sane,
I weigh it against, that's fine,
because you know what?
The good side of this,
it afford me access
to any doctor in the world.
You gotta tell me.
You have to let me know.
-And that's how I view success.
-Mm.
-Mm-hmm.
-You see the-- it's funny.
It's a funny way
to think about it, of...
it gives you acces to things
you wouldn't
have access otherwise.
-Mm-hmm.
-And the price you pay
is a nightmare...
-Yeah.
-...for you.
Yeah, and that's nothing.
I can do it.
And be-- if I can do this
for you...
I can deal with that
all day long.
-It doesn't bother me.
-It's the whole benefit
-of your position.
-It's the whole benefit.
Some people like it.
-And some people like it.
-Some people like it.
-And some people like it.
-Some people are driven by that.
-Exactly, yes, a lot of people.
-And you're not one
of those people.
-Yeah.
-A lot of people, and I'm just
not one of those people.
So, this is the thing
that makes-- helps me.
-So, allow me to--
-You can do good.
-Allow me.
-Yes.
-Allow me to do that.
-Yeah.
-[chuckles]
-[♪ "Anything" playing]
♪ Uh-huh, yeah, yeah ♪
♪ Duro, you gotta
let it bump, unh ♪
♪ Unh, unh,
like that, yeah ♪
♪ Come on,
bring the chorus in ♪
♪ I'd risk everything ♪
♪ For one kiss, everything ♪
-♪ Yes, I'd do anything ♪
-♪ Anything? ♪
♪ Anything for you ♪
♪ Yeah, I'd do a bid,
lose a rib ♪
♪ Bust a cap, trust in that ♪
♪ Run up to heaven doors,
exchange my life for yours ♪
♪ Leave a steak out the door,
mi casa su casa ♪
♪ Just remember to turn
the lights off in the hall ♪
♪ My brother from another pop
minus one shot ♪
♪ We Nino and Gee Money,
man, we all we got ♪
♪ From the stoop
to the big dudes ♪
♪ Stopping us
from playing hoops ♪
♪ And us getting mad,
throwing rocks off the roof ♪
♪ Straight thugging, man,
I thought we would
never progress ♪
♪ But look at us now, man,
we're young execs ♪
♪ My n*gga Dame,
my n*gga Biggs ♪
♪ My n*gga Ty, my n*gga High,
my n*gga Gotti ♪
♪ We embody all that's right
with the world ♪
♪ No matter how pretty she is,
you never liking my girl ♪
♪ That's how we run,
when you ain't around ♪
♪ I spank your son,
keep him in line ♪
♪ If you should die,
I'll keep him like mine ♪
♪ God forbid, keep this
in mind, my n*gga ♪
♪ I'd risk everything ♪
♪ For one kiss, everything ♪
-♪ Yes, I'd do anything ♪
-♪ Anything? ♪
♪ Anything for you ♪
♪ I'd risk everything ♪
♪ For one kiss, everything ♪
-♪ Yes, I'd do anything ♪
-♪ Anything? ♪
♪ Anything for you... ♪
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01x07 - Episode 7
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Rick Rubin sits down with JAY-Z to discuss his music, lyrics, life experiences, and creative process.
Rick Rubin sits down with JAY-Z to discuss his music, lyrics, life experiences, and creative process.