01x03 - Chapter 3

[bunniefuu]

[♪ "You Must Love Me"
by Jay-Z playing]

-♪ Throughout my life ♪
-♪ Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh ♪

-♪ No matter what I've done ♪
-♪ Right ♪

♪ You've been merciful ♪

-♪ And your love endureth ♪
-♪ Yeah ♪

-♪ Through all things ♪
-♪ Yeah ♪

♪ For that,
I am eternally grateful ♪

♪ Say that you love me,
yeah ♪

♪ You must love me ♪

♪ All I know, say that
you must love me ♪

♪ You must love me ♪

♪ Ohh, yeah ♪

♪ You must love me-- ♪

-[♪ music stops abruptly]
-[Jay-Z] Man.

I can't believe
I wrote that at--

So again, I was 27.

-But still early in my career.
-Yeah.

-Second album.
-And you're saying
that as a person,

-you wouldn't have said
these things in real life.
-No. Not a chance.

Not a chance.

That's crazy.

And I was saying also,
like the first time, you know,

hearing this would be on record.

It wasn't like
it was a heads-up, either.

It wasn't like some--
"Let me sit down.

This is what I'm saying."

-Yeah.
-Like, 4:44 is way different.

When I wrote that, uh, Smile,

-about my mom...
-Mm-hmm.

...it was a conversation, like,

"Hey, this is-- Listen to this."

The first-- I remember
the first time hearing it,

she was like,
"No. That's my story to tell."

And I was like,
"Yeah, but, you know...

let me mentor you
through this process."

And it was like
a-- a real conversation.

Until, like,
maybe a month later

she came to LA and she had
wrote-- written that poem

on the plane, and she came like,
"Listen to this."

And it was like--
Uh, it was like

her saying yes
and the blessings

-and, like, the completion...
-Yes.

...of a real healthy
conversation...

-Incredible.
-...about speaking about
certain things, you know?

This was unhealthy,
it was just...

Like you said,
it was therapy for me,

but it wasn't all the way fair
to people...

[Rick Rubin] Let's talk about
what's going on in your head

to allow this to come out

-in your art.
-Yeah.

Even that is radical.

-Yes, exactly.
-These are the words

not to be said,
and you're laying it out.

This was the only place--
was my only outlet

for-- to release these.

You know, you can hear
the shame and guilt

-in all of these verses.
-Yeah.

I say later on a thing,
"In more than one way,

-cocaine numbs the brain."
-Yeah.

Like, you-- you start
numbing yourself...

-Yes.
-...to things that
you would never do.

-Yes.
-Like, you start
losing yourself in that.

Like, it's always like--
I always say

there's two sides
of substance abuse.

You know, people get addicted
to that feeling

and the adrenaline
to being hustlers

and being in that life

that like, you know,

you start look--
overlooking things.

You have to-- you have
to compartmentalize.

-Absolutely,
to be able to do it.
-To be able to do it.

-Yeah. Yes.
-Yeah. Yes.

You know what I mean,
you have to, like, make
these versions of yourself.

-Yeah.
-You have to splinter off
into all these little versions

to justify what you're doing,
say, "I'm gonna do that,

"but I'm not gonna do this.

"I'll sell drugs to this person,
but I won't sell it

to a pregnant woman."

But you end up living in
a really small box.

Yeah. A-And I could hear,
like, just dealing with that.

Like, dealing with that,
and dealing with--

in a real-- there's like--
like in a real way, like--

-In a real way, in a poetic way.
-Real emotions.

-Yeah.
-You feel the emotion in it.

-Yeah. Yeah.
-And in the context
of someone who's--

you hear bragging on records,
this is shocking.

-Right. Yeah.
-It's shocking.

It was always the moment,
and this one,

I believe was the last song
on the album.

Like, when the last song came in
where I was super introspective.

Even on the first album,
the last song is Regrets.

-"When I was young,
you used to hold me."
-Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was a rapper saying,
"You used to hold me."

-Yeah.
-"You told me I was--"
Another song to my mom--

"When I was young,
you used to hold me.

"Told me I was the best.

Everything-- only thing I want
is all that I regret."

Oh, "In order to survive, had to
learn to live with regrets."

Again, this compartmentalization

of like, I had to put away
those feelings.

I couldn't deal
with regret and mistakes.

You gotta--
you gotta keep going.

You can't dwell on it.
"Oh man, I did that? Ah."

[claps] Keep going.

And once you start doing that,
obviously,

you burying your feelings
and burying those feelings.

-They're not going anywhere.
-No.

They're there.

They start filling up,
filling up, filling up,

-until either you snap...
-Yeah.

...or, you know,
something happens.

-You know?
-That also can explain why...

the album a year,
the-- the need...

-Yeah.
-...to move as fast as you
were moving as an artist.

-Yeah.
-Was for that purpose of,

you need to get this information
out of yourself.

Yeah.

Do you remember if you felt
any sense of peace

when you-- once you said it?

Any memories of...

I don't have a distinct
memory of peace, but...

I can definite--
definitely relate,

connect to being able
to say that...

-Yeah.
-...for someone
who doesn't speak,

would be so freeing.

I'm sure in the booth
it was just like...

-Yeah.
-You know.

You know, um...

I don't even remember
being in the booth.

It must have been
one of those times.

-Yeah.
-'Cause, you know,
where you just...

-Yeah, yeah, yeah.
-...you just go somewhere else,

-and it's just like...
-Yeah.

You know, soul takes over.

[Rick] Yeah.

It doesn't even sound
like your voice.

I know, it's like much deeper.

Yeah.

I think I was--
I think the bravado

of that-- of still being--
I remember,

this is-- this is two years
removed from the street.

-Yeah.
-And I think it did something
like you had to, like...

[in deeper voice]
"Yo, what's up, you know
what I'm saying, like..."

-Yeah.
-I-- there's a--
I can't even, like,

listen to, like, a lot
of my interviews

'cause I'm like,
I don't even-- I don't--

You don't relate to that person.

-I don't even talk like that.
-Yeah, yeah.

-[chuckles] Yeah. Yeah.
-Yeah.

[g*nsh*t]

Tell me the story of that verse.

-That... [sighs]
-[laughing]

-Okay.
-[both laugh]

So, my brother,
who was my hero,

at one time was like really--
was on drugs.

-Mm-hmm.
-And he was stealing
things around the house.

And we knew this.

But there was this ring,
it was like a three-finger ring

that-- I was dating a girl
at that time-- that bought me.

And she was at the house.

And I had just left the room

and I put the ring down
and, whatever.

And I came back
and the ring was gone.

I'm like, "Who took my ring?"

Like, looking around,
Eric took the ring.

Like, "Yo, you took my ring,"
and he had this look.

I knew he took it.

And I think that because
of the embarrassment

and the girl is there as well,
you know,

and maybe the--
just the frustration

of how many times he was
stealing from out the house...

it just kept...

it kept escalating.

And it was like...

it wasn't like-- even in--
in the verse, I say,

"Hoping that you said no,"

or maybe-- maybe he was
looking for that.

Like, he just kept pushing
the-- the issue,

and I just kept going further
in my-- my-- my ego

and, you know,
my embarrassment.

The gi-- this is my big brother,
stole my ring

in front of the girl,
and da-da-da-da.

And it just, like,
kept escalating.

-Mm.
-Kept escalating.

And I never thought
it would end

the way it end, like...

It just-- it got to a point.
It was like, wait, what?

It seemed like it happened
like this. [snapping]

It's like, what the f*ck
just happened here?

And again, like, to his credit,
the next day he was like,

"Yo, tell Shawn--
tell Shawn, you know,

-come see me and..."
-That's the line.

-Yeah. Yeah.
-That's the line
when I'm listening

-that hits me just like,
I can't believe it.
-Yeah.

It's so beautiful.

It's so beautiful
that you tell the story

and that that's how that--
that verse ends.

Yeah.

-So much there.
-Yeah.

-Incredible.
-And it's-- and again,

you look at those things
and it's like,

how could you, like, man.

It shows how far away
from who you are

you-- you become.

-Yes.
-It's kind of frightening, like,

how desensitized
a person could come.

I'm really just a regular,
normal kid.

-Yeah.
-All my years of hustling,

I always stayed away
from violence.

There was-- I wanted--
I was a hustler, not a gangster.

-Mm-hmm.
-The big difference.

You know what I mean?
I didn't want to hurt nobody.

-Yeah.
-I didn't wanna
embarrass nobody.

I didn't wanna bully anybody.
I hate bullies.

-Mm-hmm.
-But I would fight.

I would do whatever.
I wouldn't allow myself

-to be bullied at all.
-Mm-hmm.

-You know what I mean? Like,
that's just not gonna happen.
-Yeah. Yeah.

But I wouldn't seek out
any problems.

I didn't wanna move anybody
by hurting them.

"Let me take your block."

I ain't wanna rob people.

No way.

-Straight up, you give me...
-Yeah.

"I owe you $5? Here's $5."
You know what I mean? Like...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, transaction.
Straight up transac-- business.

-Straight. Straight.
-Doing business.

Reputation golden. You know?

-Yeah.
-Um...

How did people treat
you differently

when you were a kingpin
in your old life

versus a kingpin
in your new life?

In-- in that life,
you're a-- you're a star.

-Yeah.
-Like, people see your car,
they know who you are.

A lot of similarities.

I think that music
and entertainment is just...

more widespread.

-For everybody.
-Mainstream and worldwide,

-and little kids coming up...
-Yeah.

...saying, "Can I have
your autograph?"

-Yeah.
-There was no autograph signing.

-[chuckles]
-And you said earlier

that in those days

you would not want
your picture taken.

-Exactly. Yeah.
-It's kind of the opposite

in terms of where
the spotlight is.

Yeah, that's right.
And we were talking about--

when the music started,
we were talking about how--

how you're hiding,
but meanwhile, we have Acuras

and Legends with TVs in 'em
and, you know,

-all these foreign cars.
-And dressed obviously.

But we would do things like,

we're not gonna drive
our cars in the town.

We drive 'em
to the edge of the town

and then we either ride a bike
or ride, like,

-what they called a hooptie.
-Yeah.

It's like a-- like a older car.

-Yeah.
-Like an older beat-up car
so you-- you...

-Low profile.
-Like incognito, low profile.

-Yeah.
-We ride to the edge of town.

Obviously, the police
was watching us, right?

-Yeah.
-At some point we realized that

-when Emory went to jail.
-Mm-hmm.

They ride to the edge of town,
take our cars,

park those little things,
jump back in like a foreign car,

and then we was like...

-Amazing.
-"What? It's ridiculous."

[chuckles] Like, where do we
think we're going?

But in your mind, again,
you move the line

to, like, this makes
perfect sense.

-I'm not driving it.
-No.

-I'm not sh1tting where--
-No, you're being careful.

-I'm being careful.
-Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah.

[♪ "Lyrical Exercise" playing]

♪ One, one, two, two ♪

♪ Three, three, four,
breathe easy ♪

The "drop the set" line.

Had you already worked out
with trainers and stuff?

-How would you know
about dropping a set?
-I must have.

-That's like some
weightlifter talk.
-Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

-Very specific, again.
-Yeah. Yeah.

♪ Breathe easy ♪

Sometimes, you know,
I-- I will--

I will always say,
how would I know that?

-How is that even possible?
-Yeah. 'Cause I meant-- Yeah.

That's my favorite line
right there.

I'ma-- I'll tell you
about that line.

♪ One, two ♪

-[♪ music stops]
-[Jay-Z chuckles]

-That was fun.
-Yeah.

Um, I was saying my fir--
my favorite line

was "Jigga Man is diesel
when I lift the eight up."

So, "diesel" meaning strong.

-Yeah.
-He's got that-- you know,
he's c*ck diesel.

-Yeah, yeah.
-And then, the "eight,"

referencing a g*n, a .38.

-Mm-hmm.
-He said, "D-Diesel when
I lift the eight up."

But the second meaning
of that, when Kobe...

and Shaq won the championship,

there's a famous photo of Shaq
holding him in his hand.

"Jigga Man is diesel."
They call Shaq "Shaq Diesel,"

'cause he was so strong.

"Jigga Man is diesel
when I lift the eight up."

-Kobe number was eight.
-Wow.

So, he had Kobe in his hand.

-So cool.
-[chuckles] Yeah.

Would you ever
research for a song?

Like, I was asking you
about the "drop set" lines.

Like, I don't know how
you would know that terminology.

Look at all the detail in this.

-No, then I would...
-Look, it's...

There were times where I--
where words,

especially in the first album,

like, there was, like, us--
the word usage.

It's like, I don't even know
how I-- how that entered my...

-my lexicon, I guess, you know?
-Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, I don't know how
that entered my body.

-I never used that word.
-Yeah, it's funny.

I have the experience
sometimes where the right word

comes to my mind
that I've never used before,

and I-- I know what it means,
but it's not in my vocabulary.

-Right.
-And it's just like, oh,

that's just the right word
to use now.

And I say it, and I--
I'll laugh to myself

-if I say it or write it.
-Uh-huh.

Because it's just like,
I don't use that word,

but it's so specific
and it's the right word

-for the right case.
-Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

-Amazing.
-Yeah, it is.

-It's one of those, again...
-Yeah.

...being tapped
into our subconscious,

being able to find
the stuff that's there.

Yeah, we don't know
what we know.

That's right. I love that.

-Yeah.
-Mm-hmm.

I love these clipboards.

[chuckles]

-Oh, man.
-[♪ "This Can't Be Life"
begins playing]

[both laughing]

♪ What's up? ♪

I love these, your song
selection is fantastic.

-[chuckles]
-I mean, obviously.

-[laughing]
-♪ Everybody got a story ♪

♪ We all ghetto, B ♪

♪ Here's mine ♪

♪ This can't be life,
this can't be love ♪

And I almost had to do it
to, like, cope with the pain.

-Yeah.
-I'm talking about
the painful stuff right there.

-Yeah.
-"Tears... [mumbling]

"She got her palm to it."

I had to figure out...

you know, almost like
when-- when someone--

something bad's happened,
someone laugh.

-Almost like a nervous reaction.
-Yeah.

It's like, why are you laughing?
It's like...

-Too much.
-Too much.

-Yeah.
-Um, I was seeing a girl,

um, and she had just had
a-- a miscarriage.

And I was like, super excited,
I'm about to have a baby

and all these things,
and it's like...

I wasn't ready for a child.
You know what I mean?

And it's just like...

Um...

It's like just going through
those-- those emotions.

It's like, anytime--
"Guesstimate the weight you--"

I'm talking about
just coming up.

-Yeah.
-My mom's old car

that we used to jump in.

My brother crashed that car.
[chuckles]

And seeing the game, like,

wanting to be a rapper,
and, like,

Biggie and Craig Mack
had a campaign

-called "B.I.G. Mack."
-[patting table]

-It was a really
brilliant campaign...
-Yeah.

...when they first album
come out, and--

And this is me watching it.

"It's like '93, '94,
about the year

that Big and Mack dropped
and 'Illmatic' rocked."

Illmatic came out like '94.

"Outta every rag drop
and the West had it locked.

"Everybody doing them.
I'm still stretching

on the block like, damn,
I'm gonna be a failure."

And, like, my reality,
"surrounded by th*gs...

-Yeah.
-"...drugs and drug
paraphernalia.

"cops, courts and their--
and their thoughts
is to derail us.

Three-time felons in shorts."

You know, still young boys
wearing shorts.

-Yeah.
-"With jealous thoughts,

trying to guesstimate--"

Uh, "Trying to figure
where your mail is."

"Guesstimate."

I don't even know why
I would guesstimate. What?

-"Guesstimate the weight
you're selling."
-Yeah.

"So they could send shots
straight to your melon-- wait.

It gets worse."

Yeah, then, that flow
comes to, like,

"Baby mama water burst.
Baby came out stillborn."

It wasn't-- that--
again, creative license.

-Yeah, yeah, yeah.
-It didn't go that far,
she just had a-- a miscarriage.

No, but-- but it works so good

and it paints
such a clear picture.

Yeah. Yeah.

-[♪ music resuming]
-♪ This can't be us ♪

-♪ This can't be life ♪
-[♪ music stops]

-Wow.
-It's unbelievable.

-Wow.
-Yeah.

And that-- everything happened
exactly like that.

So, he was coming
to do this song,

and he walks in the studio...

and he gets on the phone
and, uh...

the whole expression changed,
and he's just like,

you know, he's gone.

And then, he gets
the phone, like, man.

And he calls his wife...

tells his wife what happened
and he's-- he's done.

Like, he-- You can see
he's visibly in pain.

And I say, "Hey, man, you know,
we-- let's do this another time.

Like, let's-- let's not, uh,
let's not do this now."

He's like, "No, Jig."
He call me Jig.

"Nah, Jig. No, well, we need
to do this right now."

And then, um, he goes in.

Now, "As I walk
into the studio--"

I'm listening--
"to do this with Jig,

"I get a phone call
from one of my nigs

"said my homeboy Reek,
he just lost one of his kids.

And when I heard that,
I just broke into tears."

And I call-- And he said--
He said he called his wife,

"and I broke into tears.

"And the second hand,
you don't really know how it is,

"but it hits that close to home.
You feel a pain in your crib.

-So, I called mines."
-Yeah.

You know, you think,
"Man, I can't imagine
losing my child."

-No.
-And-- And you call your house.

"So, I called mine.

"I saddened my wife
with the bad news.

"Now we both depressed,
counting our blessings

'cause Brad two."
Like, and you start

-thinking about your kids.
-Yeah. Yes.

You know, it's not selfish,
it's like...

-No.
-...a reaction to think

-about your own kids.
-Yeah.

And then he says,

"Brad two,
praying for young souls

"who laugh at life
through the stars,

"loving your kids
just like they were ours.

And I'm hurting for you, dog."

-And something as...
-I'm getting chills.

...as simple of a line as,

-"And I'm hurting for you, dog."
-Yeah.

-'Cause it's so real.
-That's right.

-That's not rap lyrics.
-Yes. Exactly.

-That's just real life.
-Yeah.

He was able in the moment

to turn that experience
into this.

-And he used...
-Mm-hmm.

...that tragedy
to make something beautiful.

And then another part,
when he says,

"I could have rapped about
my hard times on this song."

-Yeah. Yeah.
-In that moment,
that would've been wrong.

-He wasn't saying,
like, in general.
-Yeah.

-No.
-Like rapping about himself.

-In this moment.
-In this moment.

"I just got this call."

-"I could--"
-"I'm lucky."

-"I'm here."
-He is-- he is--

I don't know if there's ever
been a more aware

or conscious verse.

Well, I haven't witnessed.

'Cause he's talking about
what's happening right now.

"And I could have rapped about
my hard times in the song.

"But heaven knows
I would've been wrong.

It wouldn't have been life.
It wouldn't have been love."

-Yeah.
-"I wouldn't have been right.

"It wouldn't have been us.
This can't be life.

"This can't be life.

-This can't be love."
-Wild.

It's one of my favorite hooks.
Just so simple.

"There gotta be more.
Gotta be more.

"This can't be us.
This can't be life.

-This can't be love."
-Yeah.

I think that was one
of Tupac's, um, superpowers.

He was able to say
really simple things,

really powerful things.
So, you know, his--

The knock on him is like,
he's not a "great rapper,"

like a technical rapper.

And I-- you know, I argue that
with, it's hard to do that.

It's hard to say
really powerful things...

you know, just like in
simple phrases.

"Dear Mama."

-"Dear Mama," like that--
-Says a lot.

-Says so much.
-A lot.

That's harder to say
than, you know,

"I got a mama like this
'cause my mama is like--"

Like, yeah, I get the technical
playing with words,

but it's-- you just
playing with words.

[hitting table]
He struck a real
emotional chord.

Like, he took a piece of you
and brought it to the forefront.

Like, he tapped into an emotion
that we all feel.

Those things are hard.

Like, that's why it's one
of my favorites.

Back to the point,
it's like, this can't be life.

This can't be love.
This can't be right.

It's just a question of,
you know, a hard life.

And when those
sort of things happen,

like someone's son, like--
and if you believe in karma,

he's like, "What if this kid--
what could this kid have done?"

And now it gets
to a different place of,
"How do I explain this?"

I-- I experienced that
with my nephew.

-Yeah.
-Like, you know,

when, uh, people pass,
it was like...

we're in life, so I could see
that happening.

You know, friends of mine
that were close to me,

and young-- young boys,


Black Eric, Vance, T. Lowe,

I could go on and on and on.

-People that I grew up with
and was around.
-Yeah.

We know that
these things can happen.

-Yeah.
-So, my nephew
was in a car accident.

I'm like, this kid
was so beautiful.

This kid was so pure,
never done a thing in his life.

Went-- going to school.

I actually bought him the car
as a graduation gift.

You know, and it was like,

for the first time it was like,

"I can't really explain
why that is."

Yeah.

And there was just like
no explanation for it.

Until, like, a year later,

it was like,
his girlfriend's pregnant.

Another kid.

He had a kid.
And it's like, you know,

it doesn't put it all
in a neat box...

-No.
-...but it--
it certainly is like...

"Oh, my goodness."
You know what I mean?

It's just like...

In these moments,
when it's like, why him?

All these people doing all these
terrible things in the world,

-take them.
-Yeah.

And it's just not neat
like that, it just--

-No.
-Everything happens for a reason

and the reason may not have
anything to do with you.

And it's beyond our scope

-of understanding.
-Yeah.

-It's bigger than us.
-That's right.

-There's some
other thing going on.
-Right.

-We're just playing our part.
-That's right.

Best of our ability.

And it's not bad or good
or anything.

-No.
-It's just happening.

-It just happens.
-It's just how we relate to it.

There's a verse you have.
I'll talk about it now,

even though we're probably
gonna hear it at another time,

because it hit me
in such an emotional way

when I was listening,
where it's a verse

-to your nephew.
-Mm-hmm.

You're giving him, um,

-fatherly advice.
-Mm-hmm.

The first time I heard it,
for some reason

when I'm listening to it,

I didn't hear
that it was to your nephew.

-Mm-hmm.
-I just heard you

-giving fatherly advice
in the verse.
-Right.

And I started crying.

Because what I--
what it struck me as was...

it felt like you were saying
this for everybody listening...

whose father either isn't there

or isn't savvy enough

-to give them good advice.
-Mm-hmm.

And you were sharing
this fatherly wisdom

for everybody listening.

And I'm thinking about the kids
who really need to hear this.

And it just struck me as,
this is unbelievable

-that this is in a song
that's so beautiful.
-Mm-hmm.

And that's when rap
has really worked.

That's the beauty of it,
like when you hear certain songs

and it's like, "That's it.
I can relate to that.

I'm going through the same thing
with my nephews."

-You can't make that up.
-Yeah.

Those are real emotions,
and real feelings,

and real words, and I need that.

I can't even imagine what
this verse did for the family.

[Rick] Yeah.

How healing it was to them,
to this specific family,

and to people
who just went through...

-...similar tragedy. Yeah.
-Anyone who goes
through a tragedy.

-Yeah.
-That's Scarface.

Was he...

the first one that you heard
do something like this?

And when I say "something
like this," I don't mean...

-I mean, this is very specific,
but I mean...
-Yeah.

-He always writes like this.
-Always.

-He's always like...
-Yeah. Yeah.

...ripping his chest open
and tearing his heart out.

"Never seen a man cry
till I see that man die."

"Man die." It's like, what?

He's one of my favorite
of all time.

-Yeah.
-Because of that.

-Yes.
-'Cause he was so emotional...

and then talking
about Mr. Scarface,

-talking about the hardest
sh*t ever made.
-Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then the next song,
he's just like, you know,

"And my mama told me...
[mumbling]

and my mama gave me blessings."
It's so spiritual.

-Yeah.
-And it's just like,

it's so real and so just like...

-Again, so vulnerable.
-Yes.

The pictures of these people
are not just stereotype...

-Exactly.
-...gangster bad guy.

-Exactly.
-We get to see

-the whole picture.
-That's right.

We get to see the emotion
and the depth.

-Some people can't get it
all the way there.
-Yeah.

And he was one who could go
all the way into the emotions.

Speaking of going
for emotions...

-[chuckles]
-...let's hear 4:44.

-Mm. Come on, man.
-♪ Do I find it so hard ♪

-Come on, Rick.
-[both laughing]

♪ When I know in my heart ♪

[Rick] Had 'em stacked up
in order for a certain reason.

-[laughing]
-♪ I'm letting you down
every day ♪

♪ Letting you down every day ♪

♪ Day-day ♪

[singer vocalizing]

It's sad.

[chuckles] Thank you.

♪ Oh, no, and I'm never
gonna treat you ♪

♪ I'm never gonna
treat you like I should ♪

♪ Ohh ♪

[Rick exhales sharply]

-Yeah.
-[both chuckle]

♪ And I'm never
gonna treat you ♪

-Can I give you
a hug up in here?
-[both laughing]

♪ Treat you like I should ♪

[indistinct]

♪ Oh, no ♪

♪ I'm never gonna treat you ♪

♪ Like I should ♪

♪ Mm ♪

-[♪ music stops]
-Okay. [chuckles]

-On that note.
-On that note.

I think that's maybe the s...

-The-- it's on par with
You Must Love Me.
-Yeah.

Probably heard that song...

less than any song
that I've ever written...

except for, You Must Love Me.

-Wow.
-You know what I mean?

Like, just listening to it
is hard.

-Yeah.
-Like, doing it
was difficult enough.

-Yeah.
-Then, hearing it back.

-Yeah.
-You know, it was just like...

at-- at some point...

um... we got taught
so many other things.

Again, like I say,
you get taught to spot that

you-- you know this,
I know that.

I know not to pull up
to a car too close

'cause you wanna make sure
you can go to the left or right.

I tell my driver,
"Don't pull up so close,"

you know, 'cause I learned that
from the streets.

I never would pull up
too close, and--

Like, all these things
that you would know,

like this kind of wisdom,
but you had--

we had zero
emotional intelligence.

[Rick] Yeah.

We've never seen
healthy relationships...

-No.
-...in-- in the spaces.

And even when you think
you're ready--

So, when I thought I was ready,

when I met my dad
and all those walls came down...

-Yeah.
-...I still didn't
have the tools.

-Yeah.
-Now, you need the tools

to know how to communicate
and how to have a relationship.

[Rick] There's a line
about, um...

"'Don't embarrass me'
instead of 'be mine.'"

Oh yeah, that was--
that was really--

That's-- that's how
we started going together.

I was so, again, immature,
and so, like,

-afraid to be vulnerable.
-Yeah.

So afraid to be vulnerable
that I like this person.

-Yes.
-I like this woman.

-Yes.
-And I'm like, how do we go--

like, how do we take the step
from just, you know,

talking on the phone
and being friends

to boyfriend and girlfriend?

And instead of saying,
you know, like,

"Would you-- just can--
let's try this thing."

-Yeah. Yeah.
-Boyfriend and girlfriend.
I still can't even say it.

-I don't even know
how to say it first.
-Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's-- I was like,
"Don't embarrass me."

-[laughing]
-It's like, "Are you asking me

-to be your girlfriend?"
-Wow.

And that was-- that is like--
that was my--

That was the only way
I could get to being vulnerable.

-Yeah.
-Like that. It was like,

-luckily for me,
that she was able to see.
-Yeah.

"Oh, you're struggling
with this, let me--

let me help you out
with it," you know?

'Cause that's a horrible,
not engagement,

but that's a horrible proposal.

[both laughing]

And there's some beauty
in it too.

It's some kinda like...

Well, she met you
where you were.

Yeah. Exactly.

-Yeah.
-Wow.

-That's real.
-You know, that's real.

That's real.

And...

man, I didn't hear that
song since I made it.

-Is that true?
-Yeah.

-I didn't know that.
-Yeah. So, this was like...

So raw, so honest,

-and just like...
-It's unbelievable.

[Jay-Z muttering indistinctly]

A-And then you, like,
the last verse,

you're dealing
with your children

and the-- and the day

they're gonna hear this,
they're gonna grow up.

-Absolutely.
-And they're gonna
hear this song

-and they're gonna know, like--
-Absolutely.

"I regret the day
that the mask goes away

"and Santa Claus is fake.

"And you go online and see
for Blue's tooth,

the tooth fairy didn't pay."

Like, the-- just the loss
of innocence,

like, seeing their parents

as something other
than their parents.

You-- growing up,
your parents are superheroes.

-Yeah.
-And then one day, you realize,

-"Who are my--"
-They're people.

My parents are people,
and they make mistakes,

and they're not perfect.
And so, that feeling,

that loss of innocence is like
what I was dealing with too.

Wow. When you say it, it's--

-Yeah. Yeah.
-It's so heavy in the song.

And it's like...

But this is--
we love each other,

-and a soulmate.
-Yeah, and you choose--

-And you choose it.
-You choose-- we choose
each other

and, like,
you know, let's do it.

Let's-- let's heal it.

Let's heal this--
let's heal this pain

and let's be there
for each other

and let's-- let's, um...

you know, I don't wanna say
do it right

'cause there's no right,
but let's--

Let's just-- Let's
do the work, I guess.

Do you feel like
there's been, uh, progress?

-Oh, yeah. Definitely.
-Great. Great.

-Definitely. Yeah.
-I hope so.

-Yeah.
-I want you to be happy.

Yeah, thank you, yeah. Yeah.

[♪ "Blueprint 2 [Instrumental]"
playing]