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01x03 - Episode 3

Episode transcripts for the TV show, "Conversations with a k*ller: The Charles Manson Tapes". Aired: August 12, 2026.*
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Follows cult leader Charles Manson's rise, the 1969 murders committed by the Manson Family, and the 1971 trial through unreleased prison recordings, firsthand accounts, and interviews.

01x03 - Episode 3

Post by bunniefuu »

[tense music playing]

[reporter 1] The Los Angeles Police

has assigned 17 sergeants
and two lieutenants

to investigate the brutal murders.

As it stands today, they have two crimes.

They have seven people who are dead,

and they have no solid suspects.

[reporter 2] Lieutenant,
do you believe there was one person

responsible for the murders?

Uh…

We've been through this several times, uh…

I believe we do not have
anything of a definite nature

to state that there was
more than one assailant.

However, from the physical facts,
as we found them there,

it is our opinion there was more
than one individual involved.

[James Buddy Day] The LAPD,
they really had not made any progress

in the Tate-LaBianca Murders.

And it's the largest, most expensive,

most public investigation
in the history of Los Angeles.

They really had no idea
the hippies were involved.

They had no idea who Manson was.

[film reel whirs and stops]

[Catherine Share]
We had been in the desert before.

Before the raid, before all of that.

And it was always to the point

where we weren't ready
to stay there forever.

But now there is no choice.

[tense music continues]

In the desert, Charlie is talking
about the race w*r and Helter Skelter.

[clamoring]

He is reminding them constantly

of the fate that will befall them
at the conclusion of the w*r.

If they're anywhere near civilization,
they'll either be k*lled by the Blacks

or they'll become sl*ves to the Blacks.

And Charlie, he starts dealing
in a new story about the Bottomless Pit

that's out there.

There's a bottomless pit
in the Book of Revelation,

and they will find
this place in the desert.

They will go down into the pit
where there is a city.

And this is a place
where time no longer matters.

It gives him a way to occupy his followers
besides isolating them.

Crazy? Yes. I feel crazy
just running this by.

But that was the thought.

That there was a bottomless pit
that we were gonna go live in,

and that we were gonna help
repopulate the world

with our beautiful children.

[baby's cries echo]

Charlie wanted us all pregnant.

We didn't use birth control.

I'm thankful that I didn't get pregnant.

We're hiding from whoever's
going to do violence

until this race w*r, apocalypse,

whatever you want to call it
that was gonna happen, happens.

This is Charlie.

This is, you know, fantasy,
Scientology, Bible,

just all woven together into, ah,
a place we can go and live forever.

[tape player starts]

[Manson] I want the whole world, man,
and I'm gonna get it.

I'm gonna get my world sooner or later.

Our Father,

who art in Heaven.

Charlie Maddox Manson.

Thy kingdom come.

Thy will be done

on Earth as it is in Heaven.

That's dead.

Nobody's forgiving anybody.

Everybody will pay what they owe.

The debts will be paid.

[haunting music playing]

[dark music playing]

[Stephanie Schram] At night, Charlie
would get us all in a circle around him

so he could be the big boss.

There was no talk of a m*rder.

And, in fact, I wonder even now
how many people knew there was a m*rder.

I did notice that some of the girls
were gathering in smaller groups

and speaking in tones
that they didn't want everybody to hear.

[uneasy music playing]

[inaudible]

[Lake] I believe we took acid.

And the girls started talking.

Susan Atkins talked about Sharon Tate
and how she wanted to save the baby.

She thought about
cutting the baby out and saving it.

And they strung somebody up.

[distant screaming]

And then Leslie and Patty talk about
what happened at the LaBiancas'.

[screaming]

It was all so wrong.

I was terribly afraid.

I mean, who am I?

They're telling me what they did.

Now I have this secret,

which, of course,
they want me to keep it secret.

[Schram] The mood at Barker
was fear, anger.

We had to be armed. We had to be ready.

I don't know where I got the courage.

I got together
with another girl named Kitty.

We wanted to go home.

[uneasy music continues]

And once everybody
was settled in for the night,

we crawled out of our sleeping areas
and slowly crept away.

We knew with all this talk,
they wouldn't hesitate to k*ll us.

And I'd already been told by Charlie
that if I left, he'd k*ll me.

[film reel whirs and stops]

[Day] The irony of Barker Ranch
is that it was incredibly isolated.

And the family probably
would have just lived out there

and no one would have been the wiser.

Except they then decide
to commit an act of vandalism.

They see that a commercial developer

is developing the area around them
with this large excavator,

this kind of earthmover,
to clear the ground so they can build.

And they are incensed
that this beautiful desert

is being encroached upon by the man.

[Share] Charlie thought
it was messing up the desert,

and so he lit it on fire.

That's not a swift move for people

that want to be under the radar
and not get noticed.

[police siren blares]

The Sheriff's Department
have no problem figuring out who did this

because there's no one else for miles

except this weird little group of hippies
that have moved in.

They drive out to Barker Ranch
and just arrest them all.

[officer] 3-4-10,
behind a fast Camaro, northbound…

[Lake] I got arrested in the kitchen.

I'm washing my hair,
and suddenly the door, puh, bangs open.

"You're under arrest. Put your hands up."

[Day] Charles Manson
is nowhere to be seen when this happens.

So they start scouring
this little property.

And after hours and hours of looking,

they find Manson
hidden in a little cupboard.

The sheriffs opened the door,
and he looked up and said, "Hi."

[chuckles]

And they… they said,
"What were you going to do with that?"

You know, they were so shocked that
this little guy was saying "hi" to them.

[Day] They pull Manson
out of this little cubby.

Manson is dressed in a homemade
deerskin suit with kind of tassels.

He looks like Davy Crockett
or something like that. He's filthy.

That's the last moment
of Manson's freedom.

[somber music playing]

Manson was taken to the courthouse
and jail in Inyo County,

where he is booked
as Charles Manson, "Jesus Christ," "God."

[Day] So now the authorities have
the Manson Family in custody again,

and they still don't realize
that any of them were involved

with the Tate-LaBianca Murders.

It's really crazy to think about,

that the family at that point
is actually getting away with the murders.

And it's the hugest news story
in the history of America at that time.

[Oney] But it just so happens
that Susan Atkins

tells fellow female inmates
at the facility where she's imprisoned,

"You know those murders that happened
up there in Beverly Hills, don't you?"

"Who do you think did them?"

[Atkins] I used to hear Charlie in my head
over and over and over again.

Telling me things like,

"When you're in jail
and people pick on you,

you be big, you be bad, and you be mean."

That I had to somehow convince people
that I was big, I was bad, I was mean,

"leave me alone and stay away from me,"
in order to survive.

She just mentions this to them,
like in passing.

Like, "Oh, you know those people
they're looking for

that m*rder*d Sharon Tate?
Yeah, that was me."

And these two inmates
tell prison authorities.

And the LAPD immediately comes
and interviews Susan Atkins.

[Share] She just started talking about

all the movie stars
that they were gonna k*ll.

And one of the murders she talked about
was the Tate m*rder.

And there was a lot of detail

that only someone
that had been there would know.

[Oney] Until now, the LAPD didn't think
these criminal cases were connected.

But Susan Atkins' story
provides the connection

between the Gary Hinman m*rder
and Tate and LaBianca cases.

The LAPD knew they broke the case
purely by accident,

thanks to Susan Atkins.

It was embarrassing.

[reporter] Police apparently
got their break in the Tate case

when this girl, Susan Atkins,
a member of Manson's family,

was arrested and talked to a cellmate
about the Tate killings.

Charles Manson is the mystical leader
of the hippie cult

suspected of k*lling Sharon Tate

and at least six other people
in Los Angeles.

Among his followers,
members of the family,

Manson is regarded as a saint.

Many called him "Jesus."

[indistinct chatter]

[Oney] Now, the L.A. County
District Attorney's Office

had the evidence they needed
to build a case against Charles Manson.

And it would become
the ultimate trial of the century.

It shocked this town like nothing
had ever shocked it before. It was huge.

[film reel whirs and stops]

[reporter] It was
six and a half months ago

that the Manson Family was arrested
for murdering Sharon Tate and six others.

All the elements are present

for one of the most sensational
m*rder trials in American history.

[Davis] When Charles Manson showed up
in court on the first day of his trial,

he had an "X" carved into his forehead.

[Oney] It was deeply disturbing.

It terrifies everyone in the courtroom.

[Deutsch] The courtroom was packed.

And I think you could hear
everyone suck their breath in.

"Oh, what has he done?
And why has he done it?"

With the X, Charlie said it was because
he was X'ing himself from society.

[Davis] His message was,
"I am taking myself out of society,

and this is my insignia to prove it."

[reporter] Manson said he did not accept
what was called justice here.

I spent a lot of time covering Hollywood
and dealing with movie stars.

Charles Manson instinctively
was a showman.

This was gonna be his opening performance.

This was his close-up.
This was his moment.

[Manson] The ultimate judge is,
uh, Manson.

In other words, I judge the whole thing.

It was my judgment that put it in motion.

[interviewer] How do you choose
who gets to live and who gets to die?

[Manson] If you're not honorable,
you don't belong in my world.

What do you think Sharon Tate was?

That was my courtroom.

[tense music playing]

[Deutsch] The strangest thing
probably about the trial

was that Manson's female followers

made the exterior
of the courthouse their home.

[Oney] His family members took bobby pins
and made X's into their heads.

So there was always a coterie
of family members

sitting outside of the courthouse,
chanting, with X's in their heads.

I found it very disturbing
that they would do that.

[Deutsch] I was in my twenties.

Many of the young women
were my age or younger.

How do you wind up in that position
if you are a smart woman?

They were following his orders,
quite obviously. It was crazy.

They set up a whole camp.

They talked to passersby,
people coming into the courthouse.

They vowed that if Manson
was ever convicted,

they would, uh, immolate themselves

like the Vietnam monks had been doing.

[reporter] If Charlie
were convicted of these charges,

where do you go, what do you do?

There's no "if."

Charlie will get out.

All the people in jail will get out,
then we'll all go to the desert together.

[singing indistinctly]

[Share] When the trial was going on,

I was into singing Charlie's music
with the girls at the Hall of Justice.

All of us would be
standing vigil at his jail,

loving each other,

helping each other.

I was completely into Charlie.

At that point,
I was just so happy and everything.

[Sandi Gibbons] Most of
the women members of the family

thought that Charlie could do no harm,

that he loved them,
that he cared about them.

Forget that he allegedly
sent them out to k*ll people.

They thought that,
uh, Charlie was perfect.

[Deutsch] Every lawyer in town
wanted to represent Manson

because it was a big case
and he was famous.

Charlie sent out word that he wanted
the worst lawyer in Los Angeles.

And he got him.

Irving Kanarek did not literally know
how to try a m*rder case.

[Davis] I think Charles Manson
chose Irving Kanarek,

who was an incompetent lawyer,
because it was a lot about control.

Control that Manson
wanted to exert during the trial.

-[reporter] How are you doing, Charlie?
-Good.

Uh, it's, uh, it's all a play, isn't it?

It was Charlie Manson
cold-bloodedly directing his own play,

in which he was gonna be the star
and, by God, get all the attention.

[Deutsch] I think Charlie was aiming
to make this trial a circus.

He was very dismissive
of the justice system,

of society in general.

[tense music playing]

[Gibbons] The original prosecutors
on the Manson case were Aaron Stovitz,

who was the head of major trials.

And the other attorney
was Vincent Bugliosi.

Bugliosi was a good lawyer

that was a bright and shining star
in the DA's office.

[Deutsch] Bugliosi was very ambitious.

He wanted to be the top dog in the case.

I think he was watching Aaron
to see if he could get him bounced.

[Davis] Stovitz was a clever man,

but he had a big mouth.

He became very friendly
with all of us, the media.

He would come out
and chat with us in the hallway.

And the judge warned him to keep
your mouth shut outside the courtroom

because the journalists, the press,
were writing whatever they could.

But Aaron didn't stop.

Despite being warned by the judge,

Aaron Stovitz gave a very,
very detailed Rolling Stone interview,

in which he basically laid out
the prosecution's case.

Aaron is called in by the judge and told,

"I warned you. You're gone."

I think the press suspected Bugliosi
may have had something to do with this.

No, I can't comment on it.

[Deutsch] He told everybody
that he was horrified,

that he thought Aaron
should not have done that.

And that was it.

[Stephen Kay]
Vince Bugliosi was, of course,

thrilled that he was now
the chief prosecutor.

I intend to fight this case
and win this case.

You have seven million citizens?

[Kay] I ended up on the case at age 27
as his second chair.

I found it very exciting.

Vince was quite an actor.

After court, he would come out
and do TV news interviews.

I asked him one time, I said, "Vince,
I mean, you seem so well-prepared."

And he said, "I practice every night
in front of the mirror."

I do work seven days a week.
I put in usually about 16 hours a day.

Uh, at least superficially, I feel good.

[Deutsch] Bugliosi saw himself as becoming
rich and famous from this trial.

He quickly hired a book author
who took notes, watched everything.

Vince knew that this
was his ticket to stardom.

[Deutsch] Vincent Bugliosi
and Charlie Manson

had some things in common.

They were both extreme narcissists.

[Share] They had the same huge egos.

They were very controlling.
They wanted to win.

Vince Bugliosi thought Charles Manson
was an uneducated genius.

Bugliosi and Manson were rivals.

When they looked at each other,

you could see the hate rays
burning holes in each other's body.

[tense music playing]

Bugliosi knew this was
his big moment in the sun.

He would have done anything
to get the conviction.

[Kay] Manson, Watson,

Atkins, and Krenwinkel

were charged
with the Tate and LaBianca murders.

Van Houten was charged
with just the LaBianca murders.

[Davis] Manson refuses
to have his own separate trial.

Charlie said, no, it was gonna be
one for all and all for one.

So the cases were never separated.

But the prosecution had a problem.

When they interviewed
members of the Manson Family,

they realized that Charlie never showed up
at the house of Sharon Tate.

He wasn't with the K*llers.

And the LaBiancas, Charlie was never there
at the time the murders were committed.

The leader of the k*ller pack
was Charles "Tex" Watson.

He physically committed
these horrendous Tate murders.

And the LaBiancas.

[reporter] Any change in the disposition
of Charles Watson out of Texas?

No, he's still resisting extradition.

[Davis] Tex, once he knew
he was gonna be arrested,

fled to Texas.

And he had a relative who was a sheriff
who was blocking extraditing Tex.

So Tex sat in a Texas jail
while this case unfolded in Los Angeles,

which meant that he avoided being
prosecuted with the girls and Charlie.

Tex had his own trial later.

Some people thought the case
against Charlie was unwinnable

because Tex did the stabbing,
Manson didn't.

Charlie just said,
"Go there, and you know what to do."

He didn't say,
"Go there and k*ll them all."

[g*nshots echoing]

He was the manipulator.

He pulled the strings.

Can you get convicted
for pulling the strings?

[Kay] To get a first-degree conviction,

Vince Bugliosi and I needed a strategy
to convince the jurors

beyond a reasonable doubt
that these people were guilty.

Especially Manson, who wasn't there
at the scene of the Tate murders.

It's almost impossible
to prosecute someone

unless they took
direct participation in the crime.

We needed to show that Manson
had control over all these people

and could convince
these followers to k*ll innocent people.

And this is where Bugliosi's genius,
I think, emerges.

Bugliosi came up with a motive,
and that motive was Helter Skelter.

Bugliosi proposed Manson was obsessed
with The Beatles' White Album.

He was obsessed
with the song "Helter Skelter,"

which he thought
it was meaning the end-times,

the beginning of chaos in the world.

[unsettling music playing]

And "Healter Skelter" on the refrigerator
at the LaBianca kitchen.

That was essentially Charles Manson's
signature on these crimes.

Bugliosi claimed that Manson
heard The Beatles speaking to him,

telling him to start a race w*r
in the United States.

To Charles Manson,
Helter Skelter means the Black man

rising up against the white establishment
and murdering the entire white race.

That is with the exception
of Charlie and his family,

who intended to escape to the desert
and live in the Bottomless Pit,

a place that he got from Revelation 9,

which is the, uh, last book
of the New Testament.

Now, if you look at this White Album,
there are many other songs.

One of them is called "Blackbird."

[Kay] "Blackbird singing
in the dead of night."

"Take these broken wings
and learn to fly."

Charles Manson said the blackbird
meant the Black man.

[Kay] And they were waiting
for this moment to arise.

There's also a song called "Piggies."

[Kay] It was "Piggies out
with their piggy wives

clutching their forks and knives
to eat their bacon."

"What they need is a damn good whacking."

Well, I can tell you, to whack somebody
is a gangster term meaning to k*ll them.

[reporter] Why the LaBiancas
and the persons in the Tate house?

Why were they selected by Manson?

Well, you have to realize that if you're
going to have a bizarre motive like this,

it doesn't really make
any difference who the victims are,

uh, except the victims, by necessity,

have to be white
and preferably in the white establishment.

[reporter] How'd you come
to the conclusion this was the motive,

"Helter Skelter"?

Well, I've probably spent
between 300 and 400 hours

interviewing former members
of Manson's family,

a few who are still
members of Manson's family,

and I came to this conclusion
that "Helter Skelter,"

as far out and as unbelievable
and as bizarre as it is,

was one of the prime motives
for these murders.

[Davis] I remember sitting there

when Vincent Bugliosi
told the jury about "Helter Skelter,"

and I thought,
"This guy is off his rocker."

[Deutsch] The point
at which I ran to a phone

is when he said that Charlie Manson
thought The Beatles were talking to him.

It was bizarre and it was crazy
and it was fantastical.

[screaming]

[Davis] I knew The Beatles.
I traveled with The Beatles in 1964.

And I spoke to John Lennon and he said,

"What has 'Helter Skelter' got to do
with f*cking knifing people to death?"

I mean, it made no sense.
Nobody's going to believe this.

I thought the Helter Skelter theory
was bullshit.

[Share] Starting a race w*r
and Helter Skelter

had nothing to do
with the motive for the murders.

It was to get Bobby out of jail.

[Lake] We thought The Beatles
were talking about this race w*r

that Charlie had been saying was coming.

But Charlie wasn't
gonna start the race w*r.

Why would he start Helter Skelter?

[suspenseful music playing]

[Day] Basically, Vincent Bugliosi
comes up with this theory

that explains the murders,

primarily because
it ties everything together,

ties all the evidence together for him.

But also,
it could help him convict Manson.

[Guinn] A trial is a search for the truth,

but a trial is also
trying to make sure that the jury

buys into what you want them to buy into.

What Bugliosi was trying to do
was get the death penalty.

The question is,
was this enough to get a conviction?

[Manson] Reality is created by a courtroom
whether I want it to be reality or not.

The district attorney
created Helter Skelter.

I didn't create Helter Skelter.

I wouldn't say The Beatles
created Helter Skelter.

That's your Helter Skelter.

That reality you can thank
the district attorney for.

[Davis] From day one of the trial,

Charlie tried to exert influence
over the prosecution's case

to an outrageous degree.

[Guinn] During the trial,
Manson and Susan Atkins,

Patricia Krenwinkel, and Leslie Van Houten

met in the little soundproof room
off the courtroom,

and there Charlie would detail
what they would do that day.

[reporter] Before the hearing began,
Manson held his news conference.

With one of his family,
Susan Atkins, mouthing his words,

Manson said that they had already
been tried by the press.

I feel good feelings towards everything.

I feel no bad. I know no bad.

I'm not against you. Huh?

-Are you bitter?
-Bitter? No.

They were always
parroting what Charlie says.

They were so obviously under his control.

They were his puppets in the courtroom.

[Gibbons] They would do whatever
Charlie told them to do,

which, actually,
I think helped the prosecution

because it showed
the control that he had over them.

And he used them all through the trial.

The prosecution saw
Susan Atkins as a key to their case.

[reporter] Most of
the district attorney's case

is based on the testimony of this girl,

Susan Atkins, who has admitted being
at the Tate house the night of the murders

and at the scene
of two other murders in Los Angeles.

She was going to testify
for the prosecution.

[Deutsch] But apparently,
Charlie got to her.

And he said, "You're not testifying."

And she recanted everything.

[interviewer] You're the man
everybody loves to hate.

[Manson] It's not me that they're hating.

Everybody got all screwed up

because they thought
I was making everybody do something.

I wasn't making nobody do nothing.

[film reel whirs and stops]

[Deutsch] The prosecution thought
they could lose the case.

But there was another witness
waiting in the wings,

and her lawyer had plans for her.

She was offered to Bugliosi
as the star witness.

Her name was Linda Kasabian,

and she became world-famous.

[Oney] Linda Kasabian was there
at both crime scenes,

but had not taken part.

So it made her
a great narrator of the crimes.

Linda Kasabian told Bugliosi
the only way she would do this

was if she was given immunity.

So the prosecution
gave her total immunity.

It ended up being
a good deal for the prosecution.

[Deutsch] Her testimony was just dazzling.

It was stunning.

It was something like you have
never heard in a courtroom before.

She was present
at the Sharon Tate k*lling,

and she told everything that happened
from the minute they began.

Next thing I know, a man comes stumbling
out of the house covered in blood…

and, um, falls down,
and Tex starts stabbing him.

And in the background,
I see a white figure

of a lady in a nightgown,
and Patricia was on her, stabbing her.

[Deutsch] I still remember her saying,
when she was down on the lawn,

and Abigail Folger was
being stabbed to death, she said,

"I said to myself,
'Oh God, make it stop.'"

Well, God was not gonna make it stop,

and she did nothing
to try to make it stop.

She just watched.

[Gibbons] She talked about what she saw
as Manson's control over the family.

That he had this hold on people,

and he made them do things
that they didn't want to do.

I remember looking at his face,

realizing that Charlie
was definitely the devil.

He was not this wonderful man
that I was led to believe.

[reporter] You don't feel
you've been a stool pigeon,

a rat fink in testifying
against you people?

No. They don't want
to realize what they've done.

Linda Kasabian was gold,

and she was the mainstay
of the prosecution's case.

With Linda's testimony,
Bugliosi was trying to show the jury

that Manson had gained control
of the minds of his family members,

and that they were puppets in his hands,

so much so that they would
commit mayhem and m*rder on his order.

The prosecution won a huge victory.

The cards were stacked
against Charles Manson.

[Manson] I didn't k*ll anyone.
I didn't hurt no one.

I didn't tell nobody to do anything.

[interviewer] All those people that did
do it are saying you made them do it.

[Manson] No, they didn't.

That's bullshit.

Linda Kasabian was the only one
who thought that I said something.

[interviewer] Yeah, you have a code
that you have to live by. No snitching.

If you snitch, then you end up
with your tail in your mouth.

[Davis] Manson believed
he was being ripped apart by Bugliosi,

and so he was very angry.

And that's when it became a madhouse.

Suddenly, he demanded
to cross-examine one of the witnesses,

and the judge said, "No way."

[Oney] When Judge Older denied Manson,

Manson leapt across the railing

separating the defendants' table
from the judge's bench,

almost like a feral cat
coming seven feet in the air.

[Davis] Manson dived at the judge
and screamed something like,

"I'm gonna k*ll you, old man."

He was gonna stab him in the eye
with this pencil.

[reporter] A bailiff
tackled him in midair.

As he was led away, Manson screamed,

"In the name of Christian justice,
someone should cut your head off."

We were sitting there
astonished at what's happening.

[Deutsch] Manson was dragged out
of the courtroom.

Wow.

[reporter] It happened
in full view of the jury,

with the three female defendants
chanting in the background.

[Davis] The jury were horrified.

Charlie wanted to create fear.

Horror was his nirvana.

Judge Older was terrified.

And for the remaining part of the trial,

he wore a p*stol in a holster
underneath his black robes.

[Gibbons] But it wasn't just Charlie
who scared the heck out of people.

His followers also threatened people.

[Davis] One day, as I walked
through the Hall of Justice,

one of the Manson girls

smilingly faced me and said,
"Hey, Ivor," in a singsong voice.

"Do you know what it's like to have
a sharp knife put down your throat?"

Well, I took that as a bit of a threat.

[Share] I had a snake for a pet.

And Charlie had an idea.

He said, "I want you to go
to the Beverly Hilton,"

where Bugliosi was staying,

"and bring your snake with you."

The idea was to intimidate him.

And so when Bugliosi came out,

I called over to him,
and we called him "Boogeyman."

I said, "Hey, Boogeyman,
want to pet my snake?"

And he looked into my eyes.

At first he was kind of smiling,
and then he went blank.

-[unsettling music playing]
-[hissing]

He was scared to death.

I knew it wasn't okay.

I did a lot of harm.

But I had no choice.

Charlie was still controlling everybody
in the family and controlling everything,

even more than before

because he wasn't
making suggestions anymore.

He was giving orders.

[women] ♪ He's calling all to City Hall…

[Share] We all slept in a van
right next to the Hall of Justice.

And one day, one of the girls,

she handed LSD to all of us and said,

"Charlie wants us to show the world
how much we love him."

[tense music playing]

She said, "We're gonna
go by the Whisky a Go Go

and crawl all the way up
to the Hall of Justice."

It's about ten miles, maybe, or more.

So we get driven there.

And by that time,
the LSD is in full effect.

So we start crawling on the sidewalk.

All of us, while we were extremely high,

we didn't hardly feel anything.

And then people gave us socks
to put on our hands.

But when the LSD wore off,

then it was t*rture.

It was just like crawling on knives.

Excruciating.

I thought, "Well, that's it."

Pfft. "I'll be crippled after this,
if I'm even alive."

It was getting too much.

Deep down, I was getting to the point
where it was wearing thin on me.

I just wanted to get away from it all.

[Lake] How did this little imp of a man
control all these people?

It's mind-boggling.

But at that time,

I also wanted to make Charlie happy.

And that's a pretty powerful thing.

After we were arrested at Barker Ranch,

they tried to get a hold of my parents,
but we didn't really know where they were.

And so the officer that arrested me
up at Barker Ranch,

he'd fostered kids in his home.

It ended up probably saving my life.

[film reel whirs and stops]

During the trial,
I was the last witness to testify.

I was scared.

I'm only 16,
and I did not want to face Charlie.

I was so afraid
to look at his disapproval.

It was scary.

Getting into the courtroom,
I've got to pass the girls,

these girls that I had loved,

and they're taunting me.

It was hard.

I was stunned

that these people that I was a family with

and had made love with

have committed these murders for Charlie.

[man 1] Dianne, over here.

[man 2] This way.

[Lake] But I just wanted
to tell the truth.

One of the first things
they asked me is, like,

"Did you love Charlie?"

And I said, "Uh, I guess so."

Because I did love him.

So Charlie stands up and says,

"She loved everybody!
Don't pin it all on Mr. Manson."

And I just thought, "Yeah, there he is."

"There's the antic Mr. Manson
performing for the crowd."

That was just such a big relief
to look at him and not be afraid,

but to see him as this little con man…

who I had loved.

But I was not under his spell anymore.

And it still makes me cry when I say that
because it was so emotional for me.

[Kay] After Dianne Lake testified,

the prosecution rested the case.

And that's when the defense
made a terrible error.

[Davis] When they said,
"The defense can call its first witness,"

the lawyers said, "The defense rests."

"There are no witnesses for the defense."

You could hear a pin drop.

It was pretty shocking.

[reporter] Are you disappointed
that the defense did not call witnesses?

[Bugliosi] As a prosecutor,

I tend to welcome
a spirited, vigorous defense.

I like a good courtroom battle.
That's about all I can say.

[Davis] Why didn't the defense
call any witnesses?

All I can think of is that Charlie said,

"We don't want anybody to testify

because the jury's gonna see
we are innocent."

[Manson] You think I didn't know
what I was doing every second?

I didn't put on a defense
because everything was done

just exactly like I wanted it done.

I did it just exactly
like I wanted it done,

right up to this moment.

Can you understand that?

[Gibbons] The defense
called no witnesses during the trial,

but Manson did want to tell his story.

[Deutsch] Charlie agreed to speak
only if the jury was not there.

He did not want
to cooperate with the system,

and so to speak to the jury
would be cooperating.

I think he was sticking his thumb
in the eye of the justice system.

He said, "You want to hear from me?
Fine, but the jury can't hear it."

And the judge said, "Go ahead."

When Charlie started talking,
you couldn't make a sound.

Everybody was hanging on his every word,
which is what he wanted.

He wanted to be listened to.

[Davis] His speech I would categorize

as a 90-minute diatribe on me,
Charles Manson, the victim of society.

[Gibbons] Poor Charlie.
He was always in trouble.

People picked on him.

He didn't want to k*ll anybody.
He just wanted to make people happy.

That's all Charlie ever wanted to do.

Uh, I didn't buy it.

[Deutsch] He also said
to society at large,

"These were your children."

"You threw them away,
and I picked them up."

That was his excuse for starting his cult.

It was kind of a sob story that might
have sat rather well with the jury.

[reporter] Charlie,
look up here, will you?

[Deutsch] But when Charlie finished,

he said he was not gonna
repeat his testimony for the jury,

and so it would not
be admitted in evidence.

That was it. That was the whole defense.

It was quite astounding.

[film reel whirs and stops]

[reporter 1] Now, after seven months,

the longest case
in the history of Los Angeles County

is finally coming to a close.

[reporter 2] You spent
six months on the trial.

Do you have any disappointments
about how it turned out?

Well, I'm not gonna know
until the jury comes in with its verdict.

I feel that the prosecution
did everything possible in this case.

Now it's in the hands of 12 people
chosen from this community.

[Oney] Bugliosi felt confident
that he had convicted Manson

in the majority of the jurors' minds,

but it's hard to convince


And the defense
were hoping for a mistrial.

They were hoping
that just one juror would disagree,

and that was Bugliosi's fear.

[Davis] Vincent Bugliosi
was obsessed with this case.

This was his life.

He wanted to win.

[reporter] It took 42 and one-half hours
of deliberating

before the jury sent out word
that it had indeed reached a verdict.

They filed back into the courtroom,
and the verdicts were announced.

[Oney] Guilty.

Unanimous.

[reporter] Manson and three girl members
of his so-called Family

were found guilty
of m*rder in the first degree.

[Davis] All hell broke loose.

After months of speculation and fear,
there was a great relief.

The District Attorney's Office and I
are very pleased with the verdict.

That goes without saying.
We're all very, very happy.

[Kay] I was thinking,
"Eat your heart out, Perry Mason."

[laughs]

I mean, the rest is, uh, is history.

[Davis] Several months later,
Tex Watson came back from Texas

and was convicted
in his own separate trial.

[man] Down in front!

I was just stunned
that Bugliosi pulled it off

and that the jury were able to believe

that The Beatles were the reason
Manson had ordered his acolytes

to go out and k*ll.

I know it sounds strange,
but the whole idea of Helter Skelter

was reinforced
by Charlie Manson and the girls

acting like madmen
and madwomen in the courtroom.

Bugliosi convinced the jury

that the Manson girls
had to surrender their free will

and k*ll for him.

And I think
it's a huge triumph for Vince Bugliosi.

[Deutsch] After the verdict,

the judge scheduled
the penalty phase of the trial.

[reporter] That is all that remains,
to decide if Manson and the three girls

should be sentenced to die
in the gas chamber at San Quentin

or get life sentences in the penitentiary.

[Davis] The same jury
that found them guilty

has to decide on life or death.

And Family members came along
and testified for them.

[Share] I remember when
I was at the ranch with Charlie.

When we were sitting in the circle,

he'd talk about how people fear death.

And if they are willing to die,

then death doesn't have a hold on them.

But the person that said
he had no fear of death

had more fear of death than anybody.

Manson would do anything
not to die in the gas chamber.

I think Charlie talked the girls
into taking the blame for everything

so that he wouldn't die.

I remember the girls,
they passed me a note.

And it said,
"Will you help us, uh, save our man?"

They wanted me to testify.

They wrote it all out,
exactly what I was supposed to say.

And the story was just crazy.

Basically what it said was that
Charlie had nothing to do with it,

that it was all Linda Kasabian and Leslie.

And throwing all the girls under the bus.

I didn't want to do it.

But as with everything else,
Charlie controlled it.

He asked me to lie, which is perjury.

And, um, I remember Bugliosi,
we sparred a little bit.

He said, "Isn't it true
that you're trying to make sure

that Charlie doesn't go
into the gas chamber?"

I was in total survival mode.

I was just absolutely beaten
to the point of…

there's no way out.

So my whole testimony was all made up.

I just said everything
they wanted me to say.

[Gibbons] Charles Manson,
as far as I'm concerned,

he hated women and used them.

He wanted to be the only one
that was thinking.

And that's just to be blank
and just follow.

[film reel whirs and stops]

[reporter] Today, the judge
formally passed sentence

on Charles Manson and his girls.

"The death penalty," he said,

"for seven senseless murders."

[Deutsch] But neither Charles Manson
nor any of his followers

were ever put to death.

Because the death penalty in California
was outlawed months later.

[Oney] Manson's life was spared,

and he would live out
the rest of his natural existence

as a state of California prisoner.

Bugliosi had a very interesting
reaction to this.

He felt that because
Charles Manson had lived

the majority of his life in prison,

he felt at ease in a prison,
and so it was not a punishment.

Bugliosi felt Charles Manson had won.

[Deutsch] But Bugliosi wanted
fame and fortune from this.

And when his book Helter Skelter
came out, it became a bestseller.

[Oney] Without the book Helter Skelter,

Charles Manson
wouldn't live on in our imagination.

[Day] Helter Skelter is

the biggest-selling
true crime book of all time.

I remember picking Helter Skelter off
of my family bookshelf

and reading it, opening it
and being like, "This is crazy."

The success of that book
convinces the world that Helter Skelter,

this idea that Manson
wanted to start a race w*r,

that's the motive, that's the only motive.

There's no alternative, and that explains
somehow the Tate and LaBianca murders.

That belief is widespread today,
even though Manson Family members

and others who have studied the case
say that Charlie masterminded the murders

only to free his friend
Bobby Beausoleil from prison.

[Oney] I also think
that it was no accident

that Charles Manson
sent Susie and Tex and the others

to the former Terry Melcher house.

I think Charles Manson

was sending a message
to Terry Melcher, the record producer,

for breaking his heart on a record deal.

I think that was part
of his motivation too.

[unsettling music playing]

Charlie was a tiny guy, five-foot-two.

And when he went to prison,
he was incredibly famous.

He could have had the sh*t
beaten out of him by other inmates.

[Day] Manson needed protection.

So what he did is he turned
the "X" on his forehead into a swastika.

Prison is very racially segregated,

and Manson endeared himself
to white nationalists and the neo-Nazis.

And that got him protection in prison.

For Manson, it's whatever
he needs to do to keep himself safe.

[Gibbons] When he was in jail,

I don't think that
Charlie ever regretted a thing he did.

He didn't think he did anything wrong.

[interviewer] Do you feel
any responsibility

for what happened that night?

[Manson] None.

[interviewer] You feel no remorse
for what happened that night?

How am I gonna feel remorse?
What am I supposed to feel remorse about?

"You feel no remorse."

I said, "Can't you understand
I'm not guilty of anything?"

[Day] Psychopathology
is a more recent area of study.

So they never formally
called Manson a psychopath.

But he definitely had a disinterest

in what was happening
to other people at times.

And he definitely didn't care
if other people got hurt.

[Manson] All my life, I've been a crook.

Not because I chose that.

Because I was born into it.

Everybody tells you,
"Well, the choice is yours."

But the bottom choice is
you can either commit suicide

or continue on living in hell.

[interviewer] Good frequently
triumphs over evil. You know that.

[Manson] No, no, it doesn't.

That's where you're wrong.

Evil always wins.

[film whirs then stops]

[reporter] Charles Manson,
the infamous cult leader

behind one of the most
notorious killings in American history,

is dead at the age of 83,

passing away overnight
at a California hospital

of natural causes.

[photographer] Charlie, look up here.

[Guinn] Charlie died, in some awful way,

a very fulfilled man.

He wanted to be important.

He wanted to be famous.

And by God, he did it.

[somber music playing]

For me, the draw to Charlie
was he made me feel like I belonged.

I didn't call it a cult then,
when I was in it.

But now that I'm out,

it has all the earmarks of a cult.

I kept living with Charlie a secret
from most of the people that I knew.

I certainly did not want
my children to be thought of as,

"Their mother was a Manson member."

I'm always amazed
at the depths of depravity

that humanity can go.

But in the end,

every experience shapes us
physically, mentally, emotionally.

And I want to tell my story
for that reason.

[Share] We can't change the past,

but we can learn to become
better people because of it.

The harm that I did
was being Charlie's mouthpiece

and hurting people's hearts and souls.

I'm making the best of it now

by trying to be kind to others
and help others all I can.

[Schram] After I escaped
from Barker Ranch in the desert

and got home with my folks,

I was not okay.

However, they were
unbelievably supportive of me.

And I was very grateful for that.

And luckily, before they both died,

I was able to tell them, "Thank you."

I'm ashamed about my behavior
when I was with Charlie.

It wasn't me.

It was somebody searching for something.

I was trying to run to a place
where you could love and be loved.

And I thought I had found it,
but it didn't turn out that way.

[sniffles]

[Oney] Joan Didion famously wrote

that the 1960s ended
on the morning of August 9th

when the maid at the Cielo house
found the bodies.

Charles Manson k*lled the hippie movement.

[Oney] It showed that those peace,
love, and understanding values

could be twisted and perverted

if a cunning enough con man
like Charles Manson took control.

For the family members of the victims,
this is a case that never dies.

[interviewer] Do you hate
certain members of the press

for the way that you were treated
after your wife's m*rder?

Well… yes. To be honest, I do.

I despise the press tremendously
for its deliberate cruelty in all this.

[Doris Tate] This mother,
eight and a half months pregnant,

how can an individual
go in and slice them up?

What mercy did you show her?

What mercy did you show my daughter
when she says,

"Give me two weeks to have my baby,
and then you can k*ll me"?

The sad fact is that this case
shined a light most destructively

on the victims
who were butchered and brutalized

by a man who has usurped them in history.

It's an American tragedy that long after
the names of the dead are forgotten,

Charles Manson's name will live on.

[somber music playing]

[haunting music playing]

[music fades]