03x71 - Buyer Seller Showdown

[bunniefuu]

[Tami] He told me he had a car available
for me to purchase.

I had to have it towed
because it broke down.

You did vandalize the car, sir.

When she stopped making payments on it?

-Well, I...
-You have to think about that?

-She's been driving it.
-No, I... That's...

The defendant's counterclaim
is the balance on the car.

And lost wages.

I should charge myself for lost wages
from having to endure this case.

[announcer] This is Judy Justice.

[theme music playing]

Tami Joseph is suing car seller,
Jonathan Holmes,

for the return of a down payment,

vandalism, tow fees, and lost wages.

[Kevin] All rise.

Have a seat, please.

[Kevin] Hello, Judge.

Case 3124, Joseph versus Holmes.

-Thank you.
-Thank you.

Ms. Joseph, you purchased a used car
from the defendant.

You started to have
some car trouble with it

within the first week or so.

You want your money back.

-You bought this car from him in November?
-November 21st.

Mr. Holmes wants the balance
that you owe him on the car.

Yes, ma'am.

What year car is it?



So it's a ten-year-old car.

Twenty-year-old car.

[Judy] Twenty-year-old car.

-Did you see an ad for it?
-[Tami] No.

He was an acquaintance
and I had wrecked my car

and he told me he had a car available
for me to purchase.

How is he an acquaintance?

Just from my place of employment.

He was a customer
at my place of employment.

-You had this 20-year-old BMW.
-Yes, ma'am. That's correct.

-When did you buy it?
-About five years ago.

-From whom?
-A gentleman in town.

-Did you know the gentleman?
-No, ma'am.

-How much did you pay?
-I paid $5,500 at the time.

-You sold her the car for $3,000.
-That's correct.

-You gave him a $1,000 deposit.
-Correct.

And agreed to pay the rest
in installments.

Correct.

-That was a purchase and sale.
-[Tami] Yes.

I also paid the $1,000,
plus I paid another $500

'cause that was the agreement.
$500 until paid off.

$500 a what?

-A month?
-Yes, correct.

I paid $1,000
and then five days later I paid $500.

And then the agreement
was the $500 a month.

-[Judy] So so far you paid $1,500.
-Correct.

When did you start
to have trouble with it?

Nine days after I bought it.

-So you drove it for nine days.
-Yes.

What happened on the ninth day?

-I had driven it around town...
-By the way,

-is there a bill of sale for this car?
-We never made one.

-Okay. Did you get the title?
-No.

I wasn't supposed to receive the title
until the car was paid off.

-Did you have insurance on the car?
-No.

-Did you have insurance on the car?
-[Jonathan] Yes, ma'am, I did.

-At the time she drove it...
-At the time I sold it to her,

but I took the insurance off.

She never gave me another $500.
She only gave me $1,000.

And then she gave me $200
towards that $500, so...

It's probably $1,200 total.

So, at the time you were driving the car
you had no insurance?

Correct. But I wasn't driving it around.

I don't care if you were driving it
to get your mail.

You were driving the car.
You already told me in your complaint.

Right, I did drive the car to the DMV
to see if I could get it registered,

what the costs was gonna
be to have it registered.

I never got it registered
because it was... I never got a smog.

I couldn't get a smog
because of the damages on the vehicle.

-Did you ever take the car to be smogged?
-No.

There was too much damage.
There was so much that I...

So the answer is you didn't take it
to be smogged.

-No, I did not.
-When you purchased the car,

-did it have an up-to-date registration?
-No.

-Is that right?
-[Jonathan] That's correct.

How long was it
since it had been registered?

I wanna say two, three years.

Then you didn't have insurance
if it wasn't registered.

-No, well, I... I...
-[Judy] Be very careful.

Be very careful what you say.

-Understand?
-Yes, ma'am.

If it wasn't registered for three years

-it didn't have insurance.
-Right.

Am I correct that he told me
it had insurance, but took it off?

He said he did,
but he took the insurance off

-once he sold it to her.
-So that was not true.

-You have to think about that?
-No, I'm trying to figure out if...

My wife usually takes care
of the insurance stuff,

I'm not sure if it was on there.

We've had some vehicles on there
that we weren't driving before, previous.

[laughs] You know what you just said?

You want me to have her read back
what you just said?

Sounds like a lot of gibberish.

What you just said,
it sounds like a lot of gibberish.

I do off-road racing,
so some of them I keep.

I might not be registered,

but I have insurance
in case something happens.

Off-road racing?

You went off-road racing
in this 20-year-old BMW?

Not in that one,
in previous vehicles I have, so...

I don't care about previous vehicles.

We're not here about previous vehicles.

-We're here about this car.
-Yes, ma'am.

So now both of you have this car
with no insurance.

And it hadn't been registered
in three years.

-You don't have a bill of sale.
-That's correct.

And you've had the car in your possession

from November 26th to December.

December to January.

-January to... Almost three months.
-I've been trying to give it back.

No, you haven't tried to give it back.
You wanna sell it back.

There's a difference.
Giving is giving.

Selling it back, wanting your money back,
that's two different things.

-Right?
-Correct.

Okay. I mean,
we're gonna get all the warts out

because when we get all the warts out,

it's gonna come down to a simple question.

Right now, both of you
were driving around in 2023

in an unregistered, uninsured vehicle.

Right?

-[Tami] Yes.
-Right?

I'm no longer driving it,
I have not been driving it.

-You've not been driving it?
-No.

-Where is the car currently?
-At my house.

Has it always been at your house
since you purchased it?

No. I had to move it because
he flattened the tires in my driveway.

-Just a second. So you moved it?
-Yes.

-You moved it where?
-Around the corner to my friend's house.

-So you moved it?
-I did.

-Unregistered?
-Yes.

-Unlicensed?
-Yes.

And you want me to buy that? Correct?

We'll get into this business
with him vandalizing the car.

You did vandalize the car, sir,
did you not?

When she stopped making payments on it?

-I wouldn't call it vandalize...
-Just a second. You vandalized the car.

[theme music playing]

You would agree, Mr. Holmes,
you know, you're a smart man,

that if you purchased it
and there were 176,000 miles on the car...

Yes, ma'am.

...and if, when you sold it to her,
there were 126,000 miles on the car,

that would've been someone on your team
turned back the mileage?

[theme music playing]

[announcer] Tami Joseph claims car seller,
Jonathan Holmes,

sold her a damaged vehicle

and refuses to return the deposit.

Jonathan is countersuing Tami
for the remaining car payments.

-Now, did you touch the car?
-Yes, ma'am, I did.

-How did you touch the car?
-Took the battery out.

That's vandalizing the car.
Why do you think you can do that?

-She hadn't paid me...
-Did you tell her

you could do it because it's your car?

I told her I still own the car

due to the fact I had the title
and she hasn't paid me.

-So I wanted to make sure...
-So you can do it to the car

because it was your car?

Correct. That's what I said to her.

[laughs] Quite a pair.
I think they actually deserve each other.

[soft laughing]

So you've had possession of the car
for three months?

According to you,
you paid for half the car.

-Yes.
-Right?

When you purchased the car,

you purchased the car,
it was 15 years old.

-Is that right?
-About right. Yes, ma'am.

You're familiar with cars?

Enough to do the basic stuff on them, yes.

Ms. Joseph said that the odometer
on the car was turned back.

I did not know at the time.

Me and her discussed that
when she found that out,

and she agreed that she knows
I didn't know that.

I was not aware of that.

[Judy interrupts] I'm not following you.

-Are you following him?
-Hardly.

When she had found that out
she had notified me of it.

I told her I was unaware.
I did not know.

She had to grab the Carfax to find it out.

I didn't grab a Carfax
when I purchased the vehicle originally.

-Carfax would tell you that.
-Yes, ma'am.

-You have any proof...
-[Tami] Yes, ma'am.

-Ms. Joseph. Pay attention to my question.
-Sorry.

You have any proof that the defendant

turned back the odometer on the car?

Other than the Carfax report, no.

Well, do you have the Carfax report
from the time he purchased the car?

Yes.

How many miles was on the car
when he purchased it?

Not when you purchased it,
when he purchased it.

He didn't buy it new.

Right. Can I look 'cause I don't remember?

I know it said 176,000
when he purchased it.

Right now, it says 123,000.

-Oh, can I see that?
-Yes.

Oh, absolutely.

Because you would agree, Mr. Holmes,
you know, you're a smart man,

that if you purchased it
and there were 176,000 miles on the car...

Yes, ma'am.

...and if, when you sold it to her,
there were 126,000 miles on the car,

that would've been someone on your team
turned back the mileage?

That's common sense.
I mean, I'm not a wizard.

-Uh... You're right.
-I'm not a wizard.

-You're absolutely right.
-You know.

If I married my first husband
when I was 21

and my second husband
when I was 16 on my marriage license,

somebody could do that math.

-Right?
-[soft laughing]

In 2018, I see the mileage on the car

was 111,000 miles.

-Right?
-[Tami] Correct.

-And when you bought it...
-123,000.

That would be right.

[Tami] Okay. Before that,
if you look a little farther back,

-the 176,000...
-That means that he didn't turn it back.

He bought the car in 2018.

I asked you what proof do you have
that he turned the mileage back.

He didn't get the Carfax. Duh.

But when he got the car,

it showed 111,000 miles
when he purchased it.

[Tami] I gave him the same Carfax report

-when I obtained it.
-Look.

In 2014, he didn't own the car.

It had 176,000 miles on it.

Then, the next sale of this car

was in July of 2018,

when he purchased it.

'Cause you've had it about five years?
It's a little bit longer than that.

But when you purchased the car,
it had 111,037 miles on it.

That's what it says. "New owner reported."

Everybody should get one of these things.
It's really fascinating.

In 2010, it had 122,000 miles on it.

-Right.
-He didn't turn it back.

I never said he turned it back.

I was just showing him that in the Carfax
the odometer had been rolled back.

That's why you're supposed to
get the Carfax before you buy the car,

-not after.
-You're right.

I was never even aware of Carfax

until my friend Kristina told me about it
when we had to have it towed.

-That's certainly not my fault.
-No, I'm sorry.

That's not his fault.

That's not his fault.

[Tami] The problem that I'm having is
nine days after I bought it

I had to have it towed, because
it broke down 40 miles out of town,

when he assured me
it'd be a good running car.

He's selling a 20-year-old car
for nothing.

I'm not even able to have it smogged.
There's so much damage to the emissions,

it would cost $6,000
to have it even brought up to smog.

I understand, but that's what happens
when you buy a used car.

When you buy a 20-year-old car.

-I trusted that he...
-The answer is,

unless you want a guarantee,
which you get in writing,

you buy a used car, you buy it as is.

That's the answer. What?

[Jonathan] Sorry, Your Honor.

I have older BMWs
that I have that I use for parts

-and I told her...
-What do you mean

you have old BMWs that you use for parts?

I have bought previous BMWs
that I've used for parts,

-just whole from a junkyard...
-Where do you keep them?

-I keep them at, um...
-Oh, just a second. [laughs]

-[Jonathan] My cousin's property. Okay.
-[Judy laughs]

[sighs] I have to tell you, I have very
little sympathy for either one of you.

You drove around a car
for two and half months,

or for two months,
certainly enough to get it around,

without insurance
and without registering the car.

I moved it from one point to another

because he said
he was gonna take it from me.

Then you sue him for taking the car.

But you don't drive it
from one place to another to hide it

and not pay for it.

-I'd love to give it back.
-He offered to take it back.

-Is he not giving my money back?
-No.

He said he would give your money back,

but he would take off the time
you actually had possession of the car.

Isn't that what he said?

-Yes.
-Just a second.

That's a pretty good deal.

On the 5th is when I told him
I didn't want it.

[Judy] I don't care what you told him.
You're not entitled to anything.

You're not entitled to anything.

It's your car.

If the defendant, who's slick,

said, "I'll take the car back
and I'll give you back your money,

less the time
that you had the car in your possession,

that I didn't have it,"
which sounds like a fair deal.

If he says you gave him $1,200,
not $1,500,

unless you have proof
that you gave him $1,500.

Do you have proof
that you gave him $1,500?

Just text messages between both of us.

I'd like to see in the text messages

that he acknowledges you gave him $1,500.

He also said he would pay me back $950.

You buy a 20-year-old car,
unless you have a guarantee for that car,

you buy it as is.

If it breaks down half a block away
from his house where you bought it,

it's still your car.

-Do you understand?
-I guess so, yes.

Now, Mr. Holmes said he told you

that he had other BMWs.

'Cause there's something going on.

He acknowledges he said to you
for 90 days, if it needs parts,

-I'll give it to you. Remember that?
-Yes.

Did you know what parts it needed?

[theme music playing]

If he has video of you
driving the car two days ago,

what do you think I'm gonna do?

You're probably
gonna rule in his favor.

[Judy] Correct.

-Were you driving the car two days ago?
-It's been sitting in my garage.

I'd like to see it.

-Is that the car?
-[Jonathan] Yes, it is.

Who's that getting into the car,
Ms. Joseph?

[theme music playing]

[announcer] Tami Joseph has accused
car seller, Jonathan Holmes,

of selling her a damaged vehicle

and lying about the mileage.

Jonathan is countersuing Tami
for the remaining car payments.

-Did you know what parts it needed?
-No.

If you didn't know what parts it needed,
that's the only guarantee he gave you.

For the first 90 days you own the car,

he will replace the parts
if parts need replacing.

He'll cannibalize it from old cars

that he's got on a junkyard
in his cousin's property.

Your Honor, may I say... Can I say...

All I wanna see
is his acknowledgement of $1,500.

Do you have it?

-[Kristine] Uh, no.
-Good.

He wouldn't make
any kind of connection with her.

[Judy] I don't care.

He doesn't have to
make a connection with her.

She bought an as-is used car.

He told her he would give her back $1,000,
he didn't show up.

Then he said I'd give you back,
is 12 okay?

He just kept blowing her off.

And said he was gonna meet with her
and he never did.

He kept telling her
he was gonna give her money back.

He didn't go through with it.

[Judy] No. What she says is,

"I told him to refund my deposit

and I would give the car back."

He said...

"Even though he was the one
who committed a crime

by tampering with the odometer."
That's what you say.

There's no proof
that he tampered with the odometer.

That was an owner ten years ago
who tampered with the odometer.

"Instead of being civil,
he came by my house

and he let the air out of the tires."

-Did you do that, sir?
-Yes, I did.

[Judy] And stole the battery.

And you put in a new battery?

I put in the battery
from my old car, yes.

So I can move it into my garage
so it'll be safe.

-I never...
-I thought you said... Just a second.

Am I correct that she said
she moved the car around the corner?

To a friend's house? Not into her garage.

-"Around the corner..."
-Don't speak.

"Around the corner to my friend's house."

[Tami] That was the second time
I did that, yes.

The first time
I pushed it into the garage.

What was the offer
that you made to her, Mr. Holmes?

-What was the offer...
-Regarding once

-we found out about the vehicle?
-Yes.

I told her, ultimately, I would drop
the car payment down to $2,000 total

and give her an engine
as well as the parts she needed.

[Judy] Let's go slowly.
Would you read back what he just said?

I told her
I would drop the car down to $2,000...

-Two...
-Which means, if she gave him $1,200,

which is what he acknowledges.

-Right?
-Right.

That means she would owe
another $800 on the car.

-Is that correct, Mr. Holmes?
-That's correct.

And you'd give her the parts she needed.

That's correct. I have the texts here.

-I'd like to see it.
-There's explicit language in there...

Kevin.

[Judy] Would you tell me
what this $375 is?

"I'll give you the $375 back

and you take the car back
if you don't want it?"

That was when I told her
that we'll figure out

how much it would be for her
having the vehicle for a whole month.

I told her rental cars are about $50.

I'll charge you $25 a day
for how long you had it.

And that comes up to about $375 left,

overall, of what you'd have
from what you paid me that deposit,

and I can give you that,
or give me the car back.

What are you willing
to do for her today, sir?

-Nothing.
-You want her to keep the car?

I want her to give my money back.

I have video
showing her driving it just two days ago.

You driving the car two days ago?
Okie-dokie.

Let me ask you this,
if you were driving the car

-two days ago?
-Yes, ma'am.

If he has video
of you driving the car two days ago,

what do you think I'm gonna do?

You're probably gonna rule
in his favor.

Correct.

-Were you driving the car...
-It's been sitting in my garage.

-...until 30 days before then.
-[Judy] Shh. Shh.

-You said this was two days ago?
-Yes.

I'd like to see it.

-Is that the car?
-[Jonathan] Yes, it is.

Who's that getting into the car,
Ms. Joseph?

[Tami] That's me.
But that's not two days ago.

[Jonathan] That's the Stater Brothers
parking lot.

Where are you parked?
In what kind of spot?

[Jonathan] Grocery pick-up
at Stater Brothers.

[Tami] Yes.

[Judy] That's Monday, February 12th.

-Yes, ma'am.
-[Tami] No, that's... that's...

I was not... Yes, I was at Stater Brothers,

but not on February 12th.

My car has not moved in weeks.

[Judy] Yeah. Ms. Joseph?

-Your complaint...
-[Tami] My car won't even run.

Your case against the defendant
is dismissed.

I don't believe you
that you haven't driven the car.

-I...
-I believe that you've driven the car...

-I have.
-...without it being registered

and without it being insured

and, certainly, without it being smogged.

-Yes.
-The defendant has a counterclaim.

And the defendant's counterclaim
is the balance on the car.

And lost wages.

-Forget your lost wages.
-Understand, ma'am.

I should charge myself for lost wages
from having to endure this case.

[soft laughing]

She gave you $1,200 for the car?

That's correct, ma'am.

Which means she owes you $1,800.

Yes, for $3,000.

Judgement on the counterclaim for $1,800.

-We're done here.
-[Jonathan] Thank you.

[Kevin] This court is adjourned.

[theme music playing]

I didn't think it would turn out this way.
I thought he'd be a man of integrity.

I think she was fair in her decisions.

There's nothing I can do with the car.
It won't pass smog.

I can't put my 16-year-old daughter in it,
unsafe to drive.

The way I tried to make it right
was drop it to $2,000,

give her an engine
and the parts she needed,

and she still didn't want do so.

He did small repairs on it
to make it seem like it ran well.

I sold her a car
that definitely was manageable,

and I was fair in telling her
for the first three months

that she'd get parts for it
if a part went out.

Forty miles into driving it,
it overheated.

And it's been bad ever since.

I think she'll be happy
that she has the title

and, hopefully, she finds somebody
that can fix the vehicle.

[Sarah] I thought it was common knowledge
that when you buy a used car,

you know, there's a stereotype
of the used car salesman

and they're not always
as honest as they could be,

and you're not buying a brand new vehicle,

and always do your homework,
and things like that.

I was actually shocked
at how shocked the plaintiff was

that there were some issues with,
like you said, this 20-year-old car

that she was getting for close to nothing.

What about this Carfax? You know,

I'm actually amazed
at what they look like.

-I've never seen one.
-I've seen a few.

There's a lot of information there,

which is why they tell you to do it
before buying a used car.

Because some people are not as honest

about the history of the car
that you're purchasing.

It's a good way to keep track.

So, again, timeline little messed up.

Should've look at it before,
but buyer beware.

Like you said,
you're buying an as-is used car,

unless you have a guarantee in writing.

And she actually
made out pretty well here today,

given the fact that legally
she had no recourse for anything.

-For any money, for any fixing...
-No, he was entitled to money on the car.

That Carfax I find fascinating.

I haven't bought a used car in many years,
but I did buy, in my time, used cars

-and always had a bit of trouble with it.
-Would've been nice to have.

But that Carfax that said ten years ago

it had 110,000 miles on it...

Mm-hmm.

And then it went to 176,000.

-Then back down to...
-Yeah.

Is fascinating the amount of information
that they keep on every vehicle.

-Just amazing.
-Yeah. Yeah.

[announcer] Are you a victim of a scam?


[theme music playing]