03x65 - Road Rage Knife Fight: Part 2

[bunniefuu]

[Judy] He attempted
to slash her with a knife.

-Correct.
-No.

Were you taken into police custody?

They tried to charge me
with as*ault with a deadly weapon.

Was this the first time
you ever spent time in jail?

Of course not.

It's clear to me that your grandson
has some growing up to do.

[narrator] This is Judy Justice.

Previously on Judy Justice...

Ms. Chacon, you are here today
because you believe

that the defendant is responsible
for damage that was done to your car,

that was being driven by your grandson.

Yes.

My first time interacting with him,

as I was almost gonna finish
crossing the street,

-he started to honk and I flipped him off.
And?

The next day is when
we really had an altercation.

I was in my car,
he came up to me with a knife

and immediately stuck it in the window,
tried poking me.

He kicked the door about five times
while I was trying to get out.

How did Mrs. Chacon's car get damaged?

-Uh...
-[Judy] Uh...

So as far as you're concerned,
you don't know exactly

-how their car got damaged?
-No.

Now, Kevin, would you go
and bring in Mr. Kauffman's girlfriend.

-What is her name?
-Kyla.

[narrator] And now, the conclusion.

Lucille Chacon is suing her neighbor,
Seth Kauffman, for car damages

resulting from a fight with her grandson.

You can sit down.
I wanna talk to Kyla. You can sit down.

-Kyla. What's your last name?
-Steed. S-T-E-E-D.

How long have you and Seth been a couple?

Um, going on two years now.

-He has a bad temper.
-Um, sometimes.

Sometimes. We're gonna go back

-because you were in the car with him.
-Yes.

Plaintiff's grandson
was crossing the street.

-Where were you going?
-Um...

-I don't really remember.
-Think.

[Kyla sighs] Probably to the store,
like, to get something to eat.

It's ten o'clock in the morning.

-Yeah.
-Mm-hmm.

-You live together?
-Um, no.

-Well, yes.
-Just a second.

-That's either a yes...
-[Kyla] Yes.

...or a no or a sometimes.

-It's never a maybe.
-It's a yes.

-Where do you live together?
-I live in his car.

-You live in his car?
-Yes.

-Where does he live?
-He lives with his mom.

-How long have been living in his car?
-A good minute. I'm not sure.

A month? A week? Six months?

I don't know.
I don't... can't think of the time.

Do you ever go to his mom's house?

Sometimes.

-You ever stay over at his mom's house?
-Sometimes.

Okay. I want you to tell me what happened
on September 15th

when the plaintiff crossed the street.

Um, I don't really remember. Um...

Yeah, I can't really remember
how it started.

Where do you come from?
Where do you live now?

In what county, city?

Um, Oceanside.

-California?
-Yes.

-How old are you?
-Twenty-two.

I'm gonna try to refresh your recollection
so that we can start.

Okay.

Because not remembering
doesn't work for me.

Okay.

This young man was crossing the street,
you're driving with your boyfriend

in his car, where you sometimes live.

You're a passenger, he's a driver.

He's crossing the street,
your boyfriend honks the horn.

-He flips him off.
-Okay.

Your boyfriend pulls over
into a parking lane.

Puts on his hazards,
according to him.

-What do you say to your boyfriend?
-I think I just followed him and...

-Followed him where?
-...tell him to go get back in the car.

That's what you told him. So far so good.
Get back into the car. Let it go.

When he pulled the car over,
did you tell him to let it go?

Um...

-I think so. Um...
-Think.

[Kyla] I just remember... I don't remember.

Okay. You've been with him two years?

-Correct?
-Yes.

And the place where he lives,
his father also lives.

-Is that right?
-Yes.

-What's his father like?
-Um, he's a pretty nice guy.

-Did you ever see Seth with a knife?
-No.

-Does he have one?
-Not that I know of.

Does he have any weapon?

-That you ever saw?
-No.

-What about his father?
-His father have a weapon?

-Ever see?
-Not that I know of.

I want you to go back,
back in your memory, to the next day,

this is the day after
this incident happened in the street.

And, ultimately, his father was there.

Between you and his father
you got him to separate.

And you all went on your merry way.

-Yes.
-On the 15th.

I want you to think back to the 16th,
which is the day after.

You and your boyfriend were outside

-and you were having an argument.
-Yes.

You walked away from him
and you went to the median

-in the street.
-Yes.

Okay. What was the argument about?

Um, I had did something to upset him.

-What did you do?
-I was talking to another guy.

-That he saw or that was on a text?
-It was on a text.

Okay.

-And so he was upset?
-Yes.

Where had you been
right before you got outside?

If I'm not mistaken,
that's when we were at his dad's house,

inside his dad's house.

-So you were at Dad's house...
-And if not,

it was either in his dad's house
or outside in the car.

Okay. Was he yelling at you?

-Um...
-What was he saying to you?

I could understand him being pretty upset.

-After all, he let you live in his car.
-I don't remember.

And now he sees you talking on the phone.

What did he say as he sees you
talking on the phone, texting, probably,

-to another guy.
-Yes.

-And he's angry.
-Yes.

He has a bit of a temper
that you've seen occasionally?

I would say that's probably true.

Right? You saw the day before.

-So you started to walk away.
-Yes.

And did he follow you?

-Yes, he did.
-Followed you?

What was he saying as he followed you?

I don't remember.
I think he was trying to get me to leave.

What do you mean?
You were already leaving.

Yeah. Or... I really don't remember.
I don't.

I'm pretty sure he was trying to get me
to not be around him anymore.

What was he saying to you?

And was he saying it in a loud way
or in a quiet way?

Um, like, medium.
Like not too loud, but still loud.

So he's following you into the median
and you're there,

so you actually saw
everything that happened?

Where was the plaintiff's car?

-I think it was across the street.
-Yes.

And? So you saw the plaintiff's car.

He's coming out after you
and he is angry.

-Yes.
-Go ahead.

Tell me next about
what happened in the confrontation

between Seth and James and the car.

-Do you understand?
-Okay. Yes.

-Don't say "I don't remember".
-Okay.

Let's go.

I, I really can't remember.

Would you have remembered better
if you were sitting in the courtroom

-and you heard him testify?
-Yes.

Would you have remembered better?
That's why you weren't here.

At the time of your arrest,
you had the knife with you?

It was in the grass somewhere.

-You had thrown it in the grass?
-Yes.

Okay. So at the time that the police came,

-you had no knife?
-Yes.

[laughs] I love this job.

[narrator] Lucille Chacon claims
her neighbor, Seth Kauffman,

owes for car damages

after fighting with her grandson, James.

-Now tell me what happened.
-I don't remember.

-I remember...
-You do understand, Seth,

you do understand, Seth,

that, because she can't remember,

you're gonna pay
for the damage to the car?

-You do understand that?
-I did not...

Oh, well, I'm telling you.

If she is so intimidated by you,

-that she can't tell me...
-Oh, you think it's him?

That she can't tell me what happened
on September 16th...

-I don't remember.
-That she can't tell me

what happened on September 16th,

and she's your witness,

you're gonna pay
for the damage to the car.

Do you understand?
I want you to be clear about that.

Kyla.

If you can't remember, he's going to pay
for the damage to the car.

[Kyla] Okay.

-You understand?
-I understand.

Now, do you have any memory
of what happened on September 16th,

other than the fact that he was angry
that you were texting with another guy?

Um, I remember crossing the street

and then, next thing I know, is
I hear yelling.

So I turned around

and they're going at each other.

-What does that mean?
-They're yelling at each other.

-Just yelling?
-Just yelling.

Okay. And? Now you have to watch them,
they're yelling at each other.

-I get in between them.
-'Cause they're yelling,

-you walked over to where they were...
-Yes.

...and physically put your body
in between them?

-Yes.
-Okay.

Was James in his car or out of his car?

Um...

I think he started off in his car.

-And...
-[Judy] That's correct.

I don't remember how it started,
but he had tried to get out,

I guess he, my boyfriend, kicked the door.

And then that's when he grabbed, like,
he had got out eventually and then...

he had a knife in his hand.

-James did.
-[Judy] Yes.

And that's when I backed up,
but I was still trying to tell Seth to,

-let's just go and leave it.
-Smart.

After that, it kinda just ended.

-The cops had came. Um...
-[Judy] Okay. Good.

Now you change places with each other.

[Kyla] Okay.

[Judy] Now I'll see an estimate
for the damage.

[James] Just give me a moment.

How'd they have to put a window in the car
and take out a dent?

What happened when the police came, James?

Um, when the police showed up,

they arrested both of us and separated us
almost immediately.

-Mm-hmm.
-And I'm not sure where they put him,

but they put me in the back of a cop car.

-Then what happened?
-Then I was taken to jail.

They tried to charge me with as*ault
with a deadly weapon,

they realized I was a victim
and dropped the charges.

Don't tell me what they realized.
You were arrested.

At the time of your arrest,
you had the knife with you?

It was in the grass somewhere.

-You had thrown it in the grass?
-Yes.

Okay. So at the time...

[laughs] I love this job.

At the time of your arrest,

despite the fact that he told them
you had a knife,

you disposed of the knife.

So at the time the police came,

-you had no knife?
-Yes.

[laughs] God, I love this.

Okay. Did you have the window...
Now you can sit down.

Don't just sit down.
You can stand next to your grandmother.

He did not cause $4,000 of damage
to your car, madam.

You had to have the dent taken out,
maybe two,

and you had to replace a window,
which is a big deal.

-Do you know how much that was?
-I haven't replaced it. I can't afford it.

The window's still broken.
The dents are still in the car.

And there's also a scratch
right around the car.

-And...
-[Judy] I don't know how that happened.

There's more than two dents.

There's about four or five dents
in the door.

[Judy] I wouldn't let him
drive the car anymore.

Do you let him drive the car?

He has to get to work
and I can't always take him.

So the answer is you still let him drive.

So you drive the car
and leave it outside with a broken window?

We have the window covered

so the rain doesn't get in there.

And we're using my car right now,
we very seldom use the BMW now.

It's parked in the back.

Sarah, could you, please, find there
the cost of fixing the window,

-if you can?
-Sure.

So you disposed of the weapon
before you were taken into police custody.

Were you ultimately let go?

Uh, yes, after three days.

-So you spent three days in jail?
-Yeah.

-Did you see a lawyer?
-I don't believe I did.

Public defender.

-You had to have been arraigned.
-It was a public defender.

-That's a lawyer.
-I wasn't quite sure.

-That the person was a lawyer?
-Or a public defender.

I don't know the difference, to be honest.

Public defender is a lawyer,
who does it cheaper.

[Judy and Sarah laughing]

I don't have a lawyer, I have a Legal Aid.

I see for a tint glass,

but it doesn't break out
besides taxable parts and labor.

But it doesn't break out for...

[Judy] See if you can look up
replacing a BMW small window, Sarah.

[Sarah] Okay.

See if you can find that,
'cause that's what he's gonna do.

[Sarah] Actually, I think
there's a line item here,

"Rear door stationary vent glass,
remove, replace, $133",

at the bottom. Last line item.
If you wanna take a look.

And then there is an additional
tint glass. I'll just circle it.

I circled it for an additional $75.

-Your Honor, may I speak?
-Mm-hmm.

He also put a dent in the back,
in the trunk, with his knife.

-He didn't have a knife. No.
-He did...

[Judy chuckles] Maybe. Maybe.

But so far I have no proof.
I know he had a knife.

-Okay.
-I know he had a knife

that he was smart enough to dispose of

before he was arrested.

-Do you understand?
-I understand.

Very good.

How come, in all this conversation
that we had today,

I never heard from you that
he tried to slash her with a knife?

I didn't wanna talk out of turn.
I was waiting for my turn.

-[laughs] You idiot. Be... idiot.
-[Seth] There was a few...

[narrator] Lucille Chacon claims
the defendant, Seth Kauffman,

refuses to pay for car damages

after starting a fight
with her grandson, James.

[Judy] What I'm telling you is

he was smart enough
to dispose of his knife

before he was arrested.

Do you understand?
If the police had found the knife on him,

probably would've been
a whole different story.

Was this the first time
you ever spent time in jail?

-N...
-No, Your Honor.

-No.
-[Judy] Of course not.

Immediately prior to this incident,

when had you been in jail before?

Uh, about a week.

-For what?
-Uh, domestic violence.

Against whom?

-Uh, my ex-girlfriend.
-Great. What happened with that case?

She attacked me, so I smacked her once

and then some neighbors saw
and called the cops.

That was about a week before.
Immediately prior to that?

That was it. The domestic violence
and then as*ault with a deadly weapon.

-Two things?
-Yes.

-The only time you've been arrested?
-Yes.

Really? What about you?

-I didn't get arrested that day...
-No, no.

Prior to September 16th,

when had you been arrested
immediately before?

-Never.
-Never?

-I had been detained before, but...
-What?

Detained, where they sit you on the curb
and stuff, but never arrested.

Me and my girlfriend, we got detained,

'cause the neighbors said
we were too loud,

but we weren't arrested,
we were just talked to.

Told to quiet down
and then we all went on our way.

I'm gonna tell you this, Ms. Chacon.

You gotta stop thinking
that he's an innocent victim.

-Do you understand?
-Yes.

-He's 19 years old, right?
-Yes.

-How old are you?
-Seventy-four.

-Ever been arrested?
-No.

I'm 81. Never been arrested.

Twenty-six. Never been arrested.
I don't even have to go on this side.

You got the gist of what I'm saying?

He's 19.
He was arrested twice within one week.

Doesn't that tell you something?

We've talked about it several times, yes.

[Judy] Talked about what?

About him staying out of trouble
and just concentrating on working,

which is what he's doing now.

-Okay.
-And he did, um,

have enough money to buy that car.

He had worked a whole year,
putting money away

for the down payment on the BMW.

-And?
-So he's very responsible.

And also, in the police report,
it was mentioned that they believe

he hit the window
with the back of the knife

and that's how he cut his hand.

I'd like to see the police report, please,
before I make a decision

about how much
your grandson is gonna contribute

to fixing the car.

Because both of these characters
acted inappropriately.

You would agree with that, wouldn't you?

-[Lucille] Yes.
-Perfect.

So that they should
both bear the responsibility.

One, it's really Dumb and Dumber.

So the same police officer
who arrested you this time,

arrested you
in the domestic violence case?

-Yes.
-[Judy] Let's read on.

How come neither one of you told...
Stand up.

Over there.

Did you tell the police
that he tried to stab her?

Yes, I did.

How come, in all this conversation
that we had today,

we've been at this for 40 minutes,

I never heard from you

that he tried to slash her with a knife?

I didn't wanna talk out of turn,
I was waiting for my turn.

-[laughs] You idiot. Be... idiot.
-[Seth] There was a few things...

So far, I have to tell you
what you've told me about yourself,

that you got out of your car
because someone disrespected you.

-Right?
-Yes.

That you went over to him
because... whatever.

Because you had a big fight
with your girlfriend about something else.

That you told me.

The most important thing
that's in this police report

is your claim, that everybody else denies,

that he attempted to slash her

-with a knife.
-Correct.

-That, you forgot to tell me? Okay.
-Yes.

[Seth] Less of forgetting,
didn't have the time to.

Oh, you moron.

Okay. I'm finished with this case.
I don't have to read it anymore.

It's clear to me that your grand...
Uncross your hands.

Sorry.

It's clear to me that your grandson
has some growing up to do.

You should get him
to take the hair out of his eyes,

he'd be more successful,
he could see where he's going.

Second thing is, he's gonna pay
for half the damage.

And, at most,
the damage to your car is $1,000.

So he's gonna pay $500.

'Cause all I'm charging them is $500.
Do you understand?

Yes.

We're done. Thank you very much.

Judgement for the plaintiff
in the amount of $500.

[Kevin] This court is adjourned.

I'm happy with the decision.

I think that James was equally,
if not more, responsible

for what happened that day.

I'm glad that she made him
pay for half of it.

I respect that. I respect her decision.

I should've been better about my anger,
I don't need to lose my temper.

As the judge said, I could've
m*rder*d him, those are her words.

I think I was acting a bit stupid.

I thought about it,
I didn't need to do any of this.

I was simply going to work.
I don't instigate fights.

People carry g*ns, lot of people carry
a lot of other ill*gal things

that they can just use on you
at any time, so.

My words were, "I don't wanna fight you."
When I showed him my waistband,

he didn't wanna fight anymore either.

Just gotta check my ego.

Keep doing what I wanna do.

[Sarah] This whole thing
could've been avoided

if two young men just
checked their egos a little bit.

Got way out of hand
for literally no reason.

No reason. Walking a little too slow
to cross the street.

I think that it's a very deep pathology,

those three young people,

it's a very sad pathology.

Not sure what her issues are,

but the 19-year-old looks like
butter could melt in his mouth

until he opens his mouth.

And he's clearly got his grandmother,
sort of, a little bamboozled.

What started off
as two young employed people,

I thought it was going well.

-It went south fast.
-Yeah.

Looks like a job
won't save everybody, but...

[Judy] You know.
Better to be unemployed and a nice person,

than employed and going down
a very negative path.

-All three of them.
-Yeah.

All three of them.

-Very sad.
-Mm. Agreed.

[narrator] Have you been cheated?