03x64 - Road Rage Knife Fight: Part 1

[bunniefuu]

Okay, so you're crossing the street,
he honked the horn at you.

You flipped him off.

He gets out and now he starts to get loud.

That's when he pulled out
about an eight-inch combat knife.

[laughs]

Dumb and Dumber.

Next day is when we really
had an altercation.

Oh, so this is just an appetizer.

[narrator] This is Judy Justice.

[theme music playing]

[narrator] Lucille Chacon is suing her
neighbor, Seth Kauffman, for damage

after Seth attacked her car.

[Kevin] Court come to order. All rise.

Have a seat, please.

[Kevin] Case 3105, Chacon versus Kauffman.

-Thank you.
-You're welcome.

[Judy] Ms. Chacon, you are here today

because you believe that the defendant
is responsible for damage

-that was done to your car.
-Yes.

[Judy] Your car that was being driven
by your grandson.

Yes.

-This is the grandson?
-[Lucille] Yes.

[Judy] They had some altercation,

and one or both of them
may have gotten a little bit injured

during the course of the altercation.

But what took the most of a beating
was your automobile.

Yes.

Were you present during that incident?

Not while the incident was happening,
but I did come out later on.

Well, I'm not interested
in what happened later on

because the defendant's position is
that it was your grandson

that precipitated this whole problem,

and he was merely reacting
to what your grandson had done.

So, since you were not a witness
to any of this,

I'm gonna have you change places
with your grandson.

Okay.

-Go like this.
-I'm sorry.

-Tell me your name.
-My name is James Abeyta.

-[Judy] James.
-Yes.

-How old are you, James?
-I'm 19 years old.

-[Judy] What do you do?
-I'm a plumber.

-Your first name.
-Seth.

-[Judy] How old are you?
-I'm 22 years old.

-What do you do?
-I'm a cook.

-Where?
-At a senior living in Oceanside.

Both working.

-Hallelujah moment.
-[spectators chuckling]

A 19- and a 22-year-old
who are actually employed.

-Congratulations.
-[both] Thank you.

[Judy] How do you know him?

I didn't know him
until this altercation happened

-and I found out he was my neighbor.
-[Judy] Okay.

-This incident happened on...
-I think it was September 15th.

So you live next door to each other?

I believe he lives in the apartment
next to mine, yes.

How long have you lived in your apartment?

About six years, but I haven't always
stayed with my grandmother.

That's where she stays
and I stay with her, currently.

Could you speak a little slower
and try to keep the hair out of your eyes

-when you're talking to me?
-Yes.

Thank you. On September 15th,
where were you living?

With my grandmother in Torrance.

[Judy]
And is that where you live as well?

Yes, it is.

Prior to September 15th
you didn't know each other.

-I didn't.
-Not at all.

So, why don't you start out by telling
me what happened on September 15th?

Starting out with the time.

My first time interacting with him,

I was crossing the street to go to work
with Channellocks, boots, and...

With what?

[James]
With, like, Channellocks pliers, for work.

I had those in my hand, along with boots
and other things that I needed.

And, uh, as I was almost gonna finish
crossing the street,

he started to honk
and, uh, I flipped him off. Because...

-[Judy] Okay. So he was driving?
-Yes.

-So you were crossing the street.
-[James] Yes.

He was driving.

Were you walking slowly?

-N...
-[Judy] Just a second. Seth.

-So he was walking slowly.
-Very, very slowly.

Very... How very, very slowly?
Just listen to me.

Listen to me.
What I want you to do is... Who is this?

-Oh, that's my girlfriend.
-[Judy] It's your girlfriend.

I want you to stand
between your girlfriend and the desk.

Right here.

Right there.

Now I want you to walk
in front of your bench

and show me how fast he was walking.

Probably, about this, like...

-Like a snail's pace.
-[Judy] No, that's not true.

Yeah, that's not true.

Now go back and I want you
to rethink this again, Seth.

I want you to rethink it.

-Do you understand?
-[Seth] Yes.

You know how old I am?

Nobody crosses the street like that, sir,
unless they're looking to irritate you.

And you hadn't even had
any contact with him before that,

so he wasn't walking backwards.

Now show me how he was walking.

-Probably about...
-[Judy] That's okay. That's better.

-Now go back.
-Okay.

-Did he have the right of way?
-Um...

-[Judy] "Um" is not an answer.
-He did not.

All pedestrians have
the right of way, sir.

It wasn't on a crossing, uh, guard.

So he was crossing
in the middle of the street.

-Yes. Between the medians.
-[Judy] Explain that to me.

There's a median between the street
on Artesia

and he was, like, walking off of there.

No, like, crosswalk or anything.

What time was this?

About... It was in the morning.
I think about 10:00 a.m.

Okay. So you're crossing the street,
wasn't fast enough for him.

He honked the horn at you.

-You flipped him off.
-[James] Yes.

[Judy] Okay. Let's go from there.

And then, when I flipped him off,
he got very mad

-and he...
-[Judy] Just tell me what he did.

Don't tell me he got mad.
Mad is his state of mind.

-Just tell me what he did.
-Okay.

[Judy] You flipped him off.
Did you say anything?

No, I didn't at that point.
He was in his car with the windows up.

[Judy] Okay. Was he alone?

[James]
He was with his girlfriend at the time.

[Judy] That would be you.
-Yes.

-[Judy] Do me a favor, please. Kevin.
-[Kevin] Yes.

-Take her outside.
-[Kevin] This way.

Okay. So he's with his girlfriend,
you flipped him off. Now?

So he parks his car
in the middle of the street...

[Judy]
He stops in the middle of the street?

Yes. And he gets out
and he starts to get loud.

He's like, "You need to learn
some respect." And, um...

Is that what he said to you,
"You have to learn some respect"?

Yes. He said, like,
something along the lines of

"I'm gonna teach you some respect"
or "You need to learn some respect."

Because I flipped him off.

-And, um...
-Just a minute.

So far, Seth, listen to me,

you're driving your car
with your girlfriend.

He's walking very slowly,
you honk your horn at him,

he turns around, he flips you off.

You stop the car.

-Is that correct?
-Yeah, but...

-Not "yeah," not "yeah," that's a "yes."
-[Seth] Yes, ma'am. He's...

"Yes, ma'am" is even better.

Why didn't you just keep going?

What difference does it make to you?
You don't pull over in your car

'cause somebody calls you a name
after you act like a jerk

and honk your horn at them
as they're crossing the street

and get out of your car. Okay.

So now you're an idiot.
Now let's move forward.

[theme music playing]

[narrator] Lucille Chacon claims
her neighbor, Seth Kauffman,

damaged her car during a fight
with her grandson, James.

Okay. You stop the car,
did you get out of the car?

-Yes, because I was...
-Okay. Just a second. You stopped the car.

When you stopped the car, you stopped
the car in the middle of the street...

-I pulled off to the side. Put on...
-[Judy] Was it in a parking lane?

-[Seth] Yes.
-Listen.

Was it in a parking lane
that you pulled over?

Yes.

Okay. So you pulled over into
a parking lane and got out of your car.

Yes, and put on
my emergency lights as well.

Well, what was the emergency?

Uh, think about that for a second.

I want you to tell me
what the emergency was.

-Um...
-[Judy] "Um" is not an answer.

It is not an answer, you're right, ma'am.

He was yelling obscenities at me,
so I yelled obscenities back.

No, no, no. He wasn't yelling obscenities
to you, sir, he flipped you off.

He left out the part
where he also yelled obscenities at me.

[Judy] You mean after
you honked the horn at him?

-Yes.
-[Judy] What did he say?

-Uh, along the line...
-Not along the line.

I want you to think about what he said.

You know, I got a crystal ball here.

I want you to think about what he said
and you can tell me.

Nothing makes me blush.

-Uh, he basically just said...
-[Judy] Not basically.

-He said I was...
-"Basically" is a filler word.

-What did he say?
-Am I allowed to cuss? Ma'am? Here?

'Cause it was, it was curse words.

Are you allowed to say it?
I said to you I've heard everything.

Okay, he basically said I was a...

-Sorry, not basically, ma'am.
-[Judy] "Basically." Not "basically."

-What did he say?
-[Seth] He said I was a...

He said I was a b*tch.
He said I was a lot of things.

[Judy] Just a second.
Now he said all these things to you

while he was crossing the street
and flipping you off?

-[Seth] Yes.
-[Judy] Huh. I'm not sure I buy that.

My friend, Seth, I think he may have
said those things to you after you stopped

and you started to argue with him,
but all that didn't happen.

You're driving in a driving lane,

you honk your horn
'cause you're a little impatient,

which is sort of stupid,
but you're only 22.

And he flips you off,
you pull off to the side.

This all happened very fast.

-Do you understand?
-[Seth] Yeah. Yes.

[Judy] Common sense,
that's what the world is all about.

You pull off and then you get out,

and then you start back and forth
with him.

[Seth] No, Judge.

'Cause he actually did
start yelling obscenities

when I had my windows down.

He mentioned that my windows were up,
they were not, they were down.

Because it was a hot day.

So I could hear him
yelling the obscenities

'cause it was when he started
flipping me off. It was...

[Judy] Yeah. So?
Why didn't you just keep going?

What difference does it make to you
if he calls you a couple of names?

You were in the car with your girlfriend.
What difference does it make?

-Keep moving.
-Ego, I guess, ma'am.

Well, you can call it ego,
you can call it the stupid gene,

you can call it whatever you want,

but you don't pull over in your car
'cause somebody calls you a name

after you act like a jerk
and honk your horn at them

as they're crossing the street
and get out of your car. Okay.

So now you're an idiot.
Now let's move forward.

So now you're yelling at each other.

Next.

[Seth] Uh, after that,

-he said we could fight.
-No, no. Look here.

[Seth]
Sorry. He said we could fight, so...

-[Judy] He said to you you could fight?
-Yeah.

-We both...
-[Judy] No, no, no. Not "we both."

I want to know what he said to you.

He's crossing the street,
he's got things in his hands.

According to you, he says to you,
"Do you wanna fight?"

-Yes.
-[Judy] And?

And I agreed. I...

[Judy]
And you said, "Sure, I wanna fight."

-Yeah.
-[Judy laughs]

-[Seth] It's mutual combat...
-Dumb and Dumber. Go ahead.

So he said, "Do you wanna fight?"
You said, "Sure."

This is all because you honked your horn

'cause somebody wasn't walking fast enough
in front of your car.

-You know how stupid that sounds? Yeah.
-[Seth] Pretty stupid.

I'm aware it sounds stupid now,
coming out of my mouth again, yeah.

Yeah. You know.

All you gotta say is,
"I'm a work in progress."

Yeah. I am.

[Judy] Okay. Keep going.

After he agreed to that...

-[Judy] He agreed to fight with you?
-Yeah, he agreed.

After that,
when it was just me and him,

my girlfriend was trying
to tell me, like, just stop.

We can both just leave.
Which I should've listened to her.

I understand that.

-Oh.
-[Seth] Yes, um...

[Judy] Was she still in the car?

No, she had come out with me to, like,
try to dissolve the situation.

Okay. So, you know,
she's out some place now

where she can't hear what's going on here.

Which is why I had her escorted
from the courtroom.

So she's gonna tell me
that when you pulled over,

-she said, "Do not get out of the car."
-[Seth] Yeah.

-"Don't get out of the car."
-Yes.

[Judy] That sounds like something
I would say to my husband

when somebody cuts him off
and he pulls off

and goes running out of the car.
"You're 90 years old.

-Who are you gonna fight with?"
-[spectators laugh]

[Judy] Go ahead.

But sometimes you don't get smarter,

sometimes the work-in-progress
just get stunted.

-Keep going.
-[Seth] After that,

-when we both agreed to fight...
-To fight.

-And your girlfriend is telling you...
-[Seth] Trying to stop me, yeah.

Trying to stop me
from doing everything.

That's when he pulled out
about an eight-inch combat knife.

That was completely camouflaged, uh,
wish I had a picture of it.

But it was about that big.
Big enough to hurt me, basically, like...

I don't care what size a knife is.
A knife is a knife.

-It could be an inch long, the knife.
-[Seth] I agree.

But yeah, it was a pretty big knife.
And then, after that,

when were just yelling at each other,

I didn't leave
after he pulled out the knife.

'Cause I was kinda like, "I can't believe
you pulled out a knife on me."

I was just shocked by it.

A neighbor came over and started trying
to break us up as well.

Um, and so did my father.

My father came over
'cause he just so happened to be outside

and tried to stop us too.

So that day it got dissolved,
like, the whole situation.

And?

The next day is when
we really had an altercation.

-Oh, so this is just an appetizer...
-[Seth] Yes.

...of what happened the next day,
which was September 16th.

Yes.

So now, your father is there,

your girlfriend is there,
you're separated.

Yes.

[Judy] Then you saw each other again
the next day.

-Correct.
-[Judy] Take it from there.

Now you saw each other the next day.

What happened the next day?
So far we don't have anything, except,

did you take out a knife on the 15th?

-That's an answer "yes" or "no."
-No.

-[Judy] You did not?
-No.

-[Judy] You did not have a knife with you?
-[James] Yes, I did.

-[Judy] You did. Where was it?
-In my waistband.

-[Judy] So it was there.
-Yes.

-[Judy] Okay. And visible?
-Yes.

[Judy]
Okay. And what kind of a knife was it?

-A camouflage knife with a...
-[Judy] How big?

About this big.

-Um...
-[Judy] Okay.

And who else was out there?

He was there with his girlfriend and his
father came to break sort of things up.

And it was broken up
and you got back into your car

-and drove off.
-Yes.

-[Judy] So far correct?
-Yes.

[Judy] Let's go to the next day.

So the next day I was sitting in my car
in front of the apartment that I live at.

-You mean your grandmother's car?
-[James] Yes.

[James] And I noticed that
he was, like, on the median

that he was talking about,
on Artesia,

he was already crossing that side
and he was with his girlfriend.

And he had noticed that
I was sitting in my car

and he had already had his knife out.

And he came up to me
and he tried stabbing me.

He stuck his knife in the car,
already yelling,

before I could even
acknowledge his existence.

He came up to me yelling, upset.

-And he, he...
-[Judy] What was he yelling?

He was like, "What's up?

He was like, "What's up?
What happened yesterday?"

Like, "What about yesterday?
You called me a... What about now?"

'Cause he had a knife now

and I guess the day before
he felt like he didn't.

So he came up to me with a knife

and immediately stuck it in the window,
tried poking me.

As I tried to get out,
he kicked the door about five times

while I was trying to get out.

Crushing me and also shutting the door
as I'm trying to get out.

-And by the time I get out...
-What were you trying to get out for?

To not get stabbed.

'Cause I couldn't pull out
'cause he was on the left side of my car.

That's the side to go onto the road.
So I couldn't drive off.

-Unless you ran him over.
-[James] Yeah, I didn't wanna k*ll him.

[Judy]
He had a knife, he was stabbing you.

Yeah.

You could've k*lled him.

Did you break a window?

I believe it was the back, not the window,

but the little glass part over...

The little glass part,
that's usually called a window.

[theme music playing]

[narrator] Lucille Chacon
and her grandson, James,

are accusing their neighbor,
Seth Kauffman,

of damaging her car
during a fight with James.

[Judy] Okay, keep going.

So, at that point,
I got out and I followed him.

Okay. Just a second. So then you were able
to get out of your car

-because he walked away?
-He didn't walk away.

[Judy] Well, then...
'cause you say you were following him.

Which means that you were behind him,

which means he was walking away.

No, he was facing me and I was facing him.

And I was kinda like walking him back
around my car.

'Cause I was trying to, like,
go to my gate and get inside,

instead of driving off.

Why didn't you drive off?

Now he's away from the car.
Why didn't you just drive off?

I just didn't wanna get stabbed.
I wasn't sure what to do.

It all happened very fast.

[Judy] You didn't wanna get stabbed,
so you got out of your car?

-Yeah, and I was...
-[Judy] That was pretty stupid, right?

[James] Yeah, but I was trying
to avoid hitting him with the car.

[Judy] Nah.

Go.

Uh, he was parked in the fire lane
and there were no cars in front of him.

-He could've pulled off...
-[Judy] No, not could've.

Could've, would've, should've.

-Just tell me what happened.
-I was walking across the street.

Me and my girlfriend were actually having
a little bit of a spat.

-[Judy] My girlfriend and I.
-[Seth] My girlfriend and I, right,

were having a little bit of a spat.

She was leaving, I was going across
the street to go, like, talk to her,

you know, like, settle things down.

So you were having a fight
with your girlfriend?

[Seth] Yeah.

-A little verbal altercation.
-What were you having a fight about?

I don't even remember.

Something small and stupid, probably.

And then while I was
walking across the street,

I heard James from his car,
who put down his window,

start yelling at me,
again more obscenities.

"You're a...
You're a b*tch. You're this, you're that."

So I thought
he wanted to start stuff again.

And it seemed like he did,
so I walked up, I started talking to him.

Like, "Do you wanna fight again?"

The exact same thing
I said the day before.

And the exact same thing happened.

He pulled out a knife that he had
in his waistband,

and yeah, we just kept yelling
at each other back and forth.

My girlfriend, again,
tried to get in between us

and stop everything
that was going on.

Okay. So what you're saying to me,
that he instigated what happened

on the 16th of September
by shouting at you

when you were crossing the street
to talk to your girlfriend?

Exactly.

And then you came back to the car
to confront him

-as to why he's calling you names again?
-Exactly.

And then, from inside his car,
he took out a knife?

-The exact same knife, yes. Yes.
-[Judy] The exact same knife?

-And what did you have?
-[Seth] Nothing.

[Judy] Now, you knew he had a knife
from the day before?

Yes, I did.

So why would you go over to his car
unless you, yourself,

had some sort of something
to protect yourself with?

I didn't really care
about protecting myself.

I was just more angry than anything.

And that does sound stupid,
but it's the truth.

I was just really upset with the fact

that we could've had mutual combat
the day before,

that which, we both are adults,
we agreed to.

Could've done that,
but he wanted to pull out a weapon...

This all started 'cause he wasn't
walking fast enough across the street?

This all started because he wasn't walking
fast enough across the street, yes.

Mm-hmm. How did Mrs. Chacon's car
get damaged?

When I was trying
to defend myself from him,

like I said,
he had a pretty big knife,

I was just...
He says that he was following me.

No, no, no, no. Da-hup, ta-da-hup.

I asked you a question.

-He did not damage his own car.
-[Seth] He did not.

You damaged his car.

How did you damage his car
and with what?

-Uh...
-Uh... What?

I guess my body
when I was trying to defend myself.

I didn't even realize it happened
until it happened. Uh...

Yeah, but I'm gonna see pictures of it,
I assume. Do you have photographs?

I assume I'm gonna see pictures
of the damage to the car.

I do not have photos of the car.

-[Judy] No, they do.
-Oh, yeah.

[Judy] So as far as you're concerned,

you don't know exactly
how their car got damaged?

No, not exactly.

Did you break a window?

-That's what they told me I did.
-No, no, no.

-You were there.
-[Seth] I was there.

I don't remember doing that, though.
I-I don't.

Did you break a windshield?

I believe it was the back,

not window, but, you know,

the little tiny part that's connected to
your back window in the back of your car?

One of those tiny ones.

Not the window,
but the little glass part over...

The little glass part.
That's usually called a window.

Yeah.

What about holes in the car?

Holes?

[Judy] Holes. Would there be any pictures
of holes in the car?

-I don't think so.
-[Judy] No.

Okay. And would there be any marks

where there was any kicking to the car?

There shouldn't have been.
No, ma'am.

[Judy]
You don't remember kicking the car.

No, I don't.

-Do you remember what kind of car it was?
-A BMW.

Okay, now, let's go back.

Now he's with the girlfriend.

Pick it up.

September 16th, you're in your car,

sitting in the fire lane.

-Did you hear what he just told me?
-[James] Yes.

-Is that accurate?
-[James] Uh, no, it's not.

He damaged my car
when I had gotten out of it.

We went to the back and that's where
I had to go to my gate

-and, um...
-[Judy] Go to your what?

To my gate inside my apartment.

And his girlfriend was screaming
to just stop everything.

'Cause the day before,
it was something traumatic

I'm sure for her as well already.

And it was the same, like, uh,
calling each other that and, uh...

So we were just standing there
across from each other on the sidewalk,

and then he back...
'Cause he's close to my car,

so he kinda backhanded it.

And he does that to the trunk.

And his hand goes through the glass,
so it cuts him,

and the back of the car has a hole in it.

-Can I see the photographs of the damage?
-Yes.

Oh, well, that would be what we call a...

look, like a two-year-old,
that would be called a window.

What I want you to do is...
I see the broken window.

What I want you to do, James, is...
Kevin is going to give you a pen.

Something that will show up on this.

And I want you to make a circle
as to where you allege

there's damage to your car,

your grandmother's car,
other than the window.

I believe there's one more picture in the
stack that showed the door that he kicked.

Well, I'd like to see it.

Okay.

What's the damage here?

-To the...
-Like a scratch, like a line across.

-[Judy] And what was that made with?
-I think with the knife.

Okay. Good.

Now, Kevin, would you go and bring in
Mr. Kauffman's girlfriend.

-What is her name?
-Kyla.

[narrator] Want justice?


[theme music playing]