02x71 - Pay to Play and Contract Controversy

[bunniefuu]

What did he say he needed the loan for?

To get a vehicle.

I thought that it was given to me
because we were, like, really cool.

Do you understand
how foolish that sounds?

Yes.

The only people that
do that sort of thing,

usually as my great-grandmother
would call them,

bums.

[announcer]
This is Judy Justice.

[theme music playing]

[announcer] Vanness Howard
is suing her former friend,

Auntrell Brooks, for a car loan.

[bailiff]
Court, come to order. All rise.

Have a seat, everyone.

-Hello, Judge.
-Hello.

Case 2108,
Howard versus Brooks.

-Thank you.
-You're welcome.

Miss Howard, your case is simple.

You claim a loan to the defendant
for the down payment on a car.

Yes.

When did you make this loan?

On March 24th of this year.

[Judy]
How much was it?

I gave him 1500 and he paid 300.

[Judy]
Where did you take the money from?

-I had it at my home.
-[Judy] In cash?

Yes.

What kind of work do you do?

I'm a hairstylist.
I'm a owner-operator.

-[Judy] Okay.
-Yeah.

And that's the sole source of your income?

Yes. I own a salon business.
I'm opening my second one.

[Judy]
Tell me how you know the defendant.

He was a client
of a former stylist many years ago,

so I met him through her salon.

[Judy] Did you have
any sort of relationship with him?

-At the time, no.
-[Judy] No.

At the time that you gave him this loan.

We were friends.

[Judy]
What did he say he needed the loan for?

To get a vehicle.

To get a car?

He was at Mercedes
trying to purchase another car.

And I knew he had a baby on the way,
so I felt there was...

I wanna know what he said to you.

He said that he needed help
with a down payment.

He was short some for a down payment
on a car that he wanted.

[Judy] Did you have that conversation
on the phone or in person?

Yeah, he called me
and asked me for originally $2500

to help him with the down payment.

And I told him,
"Well, I don't know if I have that much."

I'll see what I can get 'em."

I had the 1500,
he came to pick it up at my home.

And that was on the 24th of March?

-Yes.
-[Judy] When did you purchase your car?

I believe it was the 24th as well.

Do you have any paperwork for the car?
What paperwork do you have there?

I just wanna see
what you brought with you today.

Basically, the lienholder paper.

And what is that supposed to tell me?

I believe it has the date on there
when I purchased it.

[Judy] Okay. And how much
did you put down on the car?

Nine thousand.

-[Judy] Did you trade in a car?
-No.

Why did you need $2500 from her?

I actually didn't ask for it.
I just mentioned to her that I needed it.

[Judy]
No, just a second.

-I asked you a question.
-[Auntrell] Okay.

[Judy] Why did you need extra money
towards the down payment?

Did it affect the payments?
Did it affect the insurance?

-Did it affect the premium?
-[Auntrell] Yes.

Basically, the car, it was, like, 74,000,
so if I was to put down a lower payment,

like you were saying, the payment
would be higher for the monthly.

So if I put down a little more,
it dropped it down a little bit.

Yeah!

Yeah.

Uh-huh.

[chuckles] Yeah.

-So she gave you $1500?
-[Auntrell] Mm-hmm.

-[Judy] Not 25.
-Yes.

-[Judy] But she gave you 1500?
-Yeah.

And she gave that to you around
the same time that you purchased the car.

Were you current in your insurance
payments on the car?

Yes.

-[Judy] And then you crashed the car?
-Yes.

And the insurance company
paid the lienholder on the car?

Yes.

-Made the payout?
-[Auntrell] Yes.

So you didn't get any money
from the insurance?

None. Nothing. No.

[Judy]
So now you have no car, right?

-I don't know if you have a car now.
-I have a car, yes.

-Well, you got another car?
-[Auntrell] Yes.

[Judy]
What kind of car did you buy?

A Tesla.

A Tesla. And how much
did you pay for the Tesla?

I put down, like, 8,000.

Where'd you get the 8,000 from?

I work at a place where I have...
I hold traveling nurses.

Did you take the money out of a bank
or did you have it in cash?

I had it in cash.

-[Judy] The 8,000?
-Yeah.

How much money do you make
from this business that you have?

It varies depending on
how many nurses I have staying there.

So you own the property?

-Or do you manage the property?
-I manage the property.

So it's basically housing nurses
or people that travel for business.

And how long have you had that business?

I've been doing that for
maybe a couple years now.

That's how you support yourself?

That and I do training as well,
fitness training.

Okay. So now you paid back $300
of the 15, right?

I gave her $300.

Right. And when
did you give her the $300?

I'm not quite sure the date, but...

[Judy]
Tell me a month.

I'm not quite sure.

[Judy]
When did he give you the $300?

May 17th.

Okay.

Tell me why you gave back the $300.

I gave it back to her because
she basically...

[Judy]
Not basically. This isn't basic.

Well, 'cause she kept asking for it,
so just to get her off me for a second.

So I gave her $300, yes.

I didn't feel like I owed it to her
because I thought that, you know,

it was given to me
because we were, like, really cool.

Ah. Uh...

-Just a second. Okay.
-[laughs]

-[laughs]
-[Judy] All right, well, Miss Howard.

You can't be serious.

-[Judy] Miss Howard.
-Yes, ma'am.

How long have you been operating
your two salons?

I'm opening a new now.
And the first one was opened in 2012.

-[Judy] Do you live with anyone?
-My children.

How many kids do you have?

[Vanness]
I have three.

-[Judy] How old are they?
-I have a 17, 18, and 21-year-old.

-Big kids.
-Yeah, college and high school. Yes.

-[Judy] Who supports them?
-I do.

-[Judy] From your work?
-And their father helps too. Yes.

From your work.
Do you live with their father?

-[Vanness] No.
-No.

-But he also helps?
-Yes, he does.

And you sound like
a really intelligent, put-together woman

who's had her own business,
who's got three kids, college kids.

Yes.

-Moving forward.
-[Vanness] Yes.

Why?

[laughs]

Why do you think?

You know, I know that you work

because if you're a hairdresser
and that's your source of income,

you work really hard.

It takes a long time
to accumulate $1500.

You know, I'm sure you get
some tips and stuff.

That's the cash that you keep.

Yeah.

So you work hard
and you've got three kids who need money.

He wants to buy an uber-expensive car.

And he wants his payments to be lower.

So he says to you...

Not that he needs it.

See, he doesn't need it to get a car.

He wants it to make his payments lower.

That's not how he presented it to me.

[Judy]
How did he present it to you?

He said he needs help, he needs the money
for the down payment.

And I knew he told me that,
you know, the situation,

his car got taken away or whatever.

[Judy]
His car got what?

His previous vehicle
was taken from him.

-From how?
-[Vanness] I don't know.

[Judy]
What kind of a car did you have?

[laughs]

Before you bought the BMW.

That's what it was. It was a BMW.

Oh, then your bought a Mercedes?

-Yeah.
-[Judy] Okay, so you bought...

Sorry, I got that confused.

You bought the Mercedes
using some of her money.

Before that, you had a BMW?

Yes.

Okay, and now you have a Tesla.

Do you understand how foolish that sounds?

Yes.

You don't wanna sound foolish.

Well, like I said,
he had a baby on the way any day now

and my compassion
for the situation, I was like,

"Okay, I'll give you that."

And I know he's had a source of income.

It's not like I've ever known him
not to have an income.

So I felt like,
"Okay, he'll do right by me."

Of course, he didn't, we see.

Do you know how many people
stand in exactly that spot

and say, "You know, I trusted him,

he gave me this story,
he gave me that story"?

Yes.

And what I'm telling you is,
most of the people standing there,

for some reason that
has always baffled me,

are women.

[theme music playing]

Any guy who takes money from you
to lower his car payment

and buys a car for $75,000,

the only people that do that sort of thing
are untrustworthy.

Then you changed the contract.

You said, "Not acceptable,

you're behind $500
and a late payment

will only be acceptable
with a current payment."

Is there anything about that
in your contract?

There's not.

Okay. So if it's not in your contract,
it doesn't exist.

[theme music playing]

[announcer]
Vanness Howard claims her former friend,

Auntrell Brooks,
owes for a car loan.

Most of the people standing there,

for some reason that
has always baffled me,

-are women.
-[Vanness] Yeah.

Very rarely do I have guys standing there
saying, "You know, she asked me for this

and so I knew she had a baby
on the way and I felt sorry for her,

so I gave them money."

Right.

But most of the time they say goodbye,
which is what you should have said.

Absolutely.

[Judy]
And you appear to be much too fine a lady.

-And a hardworking lady.
-[Vanness] Thank you.

Don't give anybody...

No more. This is it.

Any guy who takes money from you
to lower his car payment

and buys a car for $75,000

and asks you for 1,000 or $2,000,
knowing that you're a working gal...

And then he didn't needed to buy a car.

He could've bought a car for $50,000.
He could've bought a car for $30,000.

-Right.
-[Judy] Likes to drive fancy cars

-with somebody else's money, okay?
-Yes.

So the only people
that do that sort of thing

are untrustworthy,

usually as my great grandmother
would call them,

bums.

So I would suggest
that you be smart in the future.

You're a hardworking lady.
Hold on to your money.

If you wanna invest in anything,
invest in children's future.

We're done here.

Judgment for the plaintiff.

-Thank you.
-[bailiff] This court is adjourned.

Mr. Brooks took my money
with no intentions of paying it back.

I thought it was...
she gave it to me.

Oh, "Car crashed, my tires got slashed."

I thought it was a gift because
she really likes me.

Don't let men borrow money.

Lovely woman, hardworking woman.

She's gonna have a chain.

As Dolly Parton would say, have a chain.

-Gonna have a second salon.
-Mm-hmm.

On the other side,
you have somebody with zero judgment.

He's well-versed in other people's money.

Why a perfectly sensible,
bright woman would take money

that she worked really hard for and give
it to somebody that she hardly knows.

-Women have to be smarter.
-Women have to be smarter.

-Worry about themselves.
-Yeah.

Case 2113, Pickett versus Gick.
All parties, please step forward.

[announcer] William Pickett
is suing his former friend,

Clinton Gick, for unpaid car payments
and vehicle damage.

Mr. Pickett, you and the defendant,
according to what I've read,

were friends,
you knew each other.

Yes.

[Judy] You had a car
that you were interested in selling.

The defendant
was interested in purchasing the car.

-Your car was 10 or 11-year-old vehicle.
-Correct.

[Judy]
Is that correct?

-[William] Yes.
-When had you purchased it?

I purchased it about a year or so prior.

So you only had the car for a year.
You were not an original owner.

-Short amount of time, yeah.
-[Judy] Did you pay cash?

[William] I did.

[Judy]
How much did you pay for the car?

Roughly $10,000,
nine, $10,000.

No, I want to know.
I mean, you came into court today.

Not a roughly.
Today we know the numbers.

We're not talking about something
that happened 20 years ago.

It's something that happened a year ago.

You bought a car a year ago.
You paid cash for it.

According to you.

I want to know how much you paid for it.
That's easy.

You should have those records.

Ten thousand.

[Judy]
Well, now you say 10, right?

-Yeah.
-[Judy] Now you say 10.

So now I'm gonna tell you to go outside
and get me the bill of sale for the car.

I did not bring that.

-[Judy] Why?
-I didn't think I needed it.

How am I supposed to ascertain
what you paid for the car, sir?

I didn't think about that.

You should have thought about it.
I thought about it right off the bat.

You had the car for one year.
And when did you sell it to the defendant?



For how much?

Ten thousand dollars.

Well, then you're
a genius businessman

because unless this 10,


had something really unusual about it,

most cars depreciate
the moment you drive them out of a lot.

You bought this car from a company,
which means you paid more for it

than if you purchased it
through a private person.

You understand that?

-Yes.
-[Judy] Of course.

So there was clearly a markup.

Sarah, take a look at
a 2012 Dodge Charger.

-With 148,000.
-With 148,000 miles.

I got it. Between 7500 and 10,000
for a private party sale.

[Judy]
Okay. So as I thought.

The value of the car went down
from when you bought it.

But you sold it to him for $10,000
'cause he was making payments,

I assume,
because he was making payments.

-Did you have a written contract?
-I did.

I'd like to take a look at it.

Mr. Gick, how did you
know each other, sir?

We worked together.

We'd known each other for about a year,
I think, at the time the car was sold.

Okay. So the first thing was
he traded in something of value.

Which was he gave you a car?

Correct.

[Judy]
What kind of car did he give you?

A Honda minivan.

-[Judy] Did you have the title to that?
-Yes, I did.

-[Judy] Did he turn over the title to you?
-He did.

[Judy]
What did you do with the Honda minivan?

-I sold it.
-[Judy] To whom?

Someone off of Facebook Marketplace.

[Judy]
Okay, when did you sell it?

A few weeks afterwards.

How much did you sell it for?
How much did you say you sold it for?

Thousand dollars, 1200.

Let's get specific, Mr. Pickett.

Thousand dollars.

I'm not exactly sure what he sold it for,
but clearly acknowledges at least $1,000.

So this is what the lawsuit is about.
And I've read your contract.

According to the contract
that you have here,

you listed the dates,
the schedule of payments,

and you marked off when he paid
and when he didn't.

But we're going to go through the dates.

And your law suit seeks
damages to the car, repo fees,

the unpaid contract price of the car
because you repossessed it

and you want him to continue
until he's finished paying for it.

-Right, that's what you want?
-Yes, ma'am.

[Judy]
And the defendant has a counterclaim.

And his counterclaim, in effect, although
he doesn't articulate it in legalese,

the basis of his countersuit
is that there was

never any meaningful
breach of the contract

and that he tried to make his payments
pursuant to the contract

and that you repossessed the car
without just cause.

And he's counterclaiming for the money
that he put into the car as equity.

That's what your counterclaim is.

-Correct?
-That's correct.

Okay. So, so far, you put in $4,000.

According to this,
he paid you March of 2022, April.

As a matter of fact,
he made two two payments.

Correct. The payment schedule
was for every two weeks.

Shh. 6/17, he made a partial payment
but made that up on 7/1.

So he was up to date.

Then you say on the 15th of July
he missed a payment.

Did you miss a payment the 15th of July?

Yes, I did, Your Honor.

[Judy]
Tell me why.

At that point,
the plaintiff had already threatened

to repossess the car several times before
I had ever missed a payment on the car.

Because you made
a partial payment once in June.

Yeah, and also...

But then made it up again
within two weeks.

-Yes, exactly.
-Okay.

So you had already said to him,
"You miss payments,

I'm gonna repossess the car."

I informed.
I didn't threaten to repossess it yet.

[Judy] No, no.

-[William] Yes.
-Yeah.

-Yeah.
-[Judy] Okay.

So you missed a payment
on July 15th?

[Clinton] Yes.

And I informed him
when I missed the payment

that the reason for missing it,

he had just filed for bankruptcy

and with his bankruptcy
and the threats to repossess the car,

I had decided that I wanted to miss,

as it states in the contract,
that I could miss

two consecutive payments
before repossession.

I wanted to talk to a lawyer
and make sure that I wasn't

going to be putting even more money
into a car that I was...

A car that you weren't
going to have equity in.

-[Clinton] Exactly.
-Okay.

So that's why you missed July 15th.

-Yes, that's correct.
-[Judy] Okay.

And the 29th of July also missed.

Yes.

So I attempted to give Mr. Pickett
a $500 payment on the 29th.

He refused to to accept that payment.

And I have that in text.

-I'd like to see it.
-[Clinton] Text messages.

[Judy]
I'd like to see it.

Do you acknowledge that he attempted
to give you a payment on the 29th?

Yeah, he attempted
to make a partial payment.

He attempted to give you $500?

Correct.

[Judy] And tell me why
you didn't accept the $500.

He missed the payment on the 15th.

I informed him on the 16th
that I would not accept a late payment

unless it's in conjunction
with the current payment.

[Judy]
You can't change the contract, sir.

You can't change a written contract.

[theme music playing]

There was a loan on this car?

Yeah, there was title loan on it.

Oh, you didn't tell me that.

That adds a different wrinkle
to this whole thing,

because you told me
you paid cash for the car,

so I assumed there was not a problem.

[theme music playing]

[announcer] William Pickett
claims his former friend,

Clinton Gick, owes for car payments
and vehicle damage.

Clinton is countersuing,

claiming William sold the car
under false pretenses.

Now, you had a written contract with him.

If you're changing the terms,
he has to agree to the terms in writing

in the same force and manner
of the original contract,

which is this in writing,
signed by both parties.

You have a contract.

Here the contract says
he can't miss two consecutive payments.

He wasn't missing
two consecutive payments.

He missed July 15th

and he tried to give you one
on the 29th of July.

If you refuse to accept it,
he hasn't missed two payments.

You refused to accept the second one.

-Got it?
-Got it.

Okay, well, I see the interchange,
Mr. Pickett,

and the interchange clearly says,

"You're paying $1,000 today
or returning my car."

He says, "I'll be giving you
my $500 payment that's due today."

Then you change the contract.
You said, "Not acceptable,

you're behind $500
and a late payment

will only be acceptable
with a current payment."

Is there anything about that
in your contract?

There's not.

Okay, so if it's not in your contract,
it doesn't exist.

And you had, so far,
no reason to repossess the car.

Did he try to make
a payment to you in August?

I think one other time
between the time I repossessed it.

Okay. Well, you had no reason
to repossess it,

so far, unless he missed
two consecutive payments

or unless he failed to keep insurance.

Did he fail to keep insurance?

I have never been given
proof of insurance.

That doesn't require that you are given
proof of insurance.

I don't know if he kept insurance or not.

This doesn't say you require proof.
Did you have insurance on the car?

-Yes, I did, Your Honor.
-[Judy] Through whom?

Erie Insurance Agency.

Okay. And you have no information
to the contrary?

-I don't.
-[Judy] Okay, fine.

So at the time you repossessed the car,
so far, Mr. Pickett,

you didn't have basis
under your contract

to repossess the car.

There was also other terms
I believed he had violated.

Well, let's hear them. So far,
he didn't miss two consecutive payments.

Had you filed for bankruptcy?

I had started filing
for bankruptcy, yeah.

[Judy]
Is that completed?

Still hasn't been discharged yet.
I think I have another month or so.

[Judy] Was this the first time
you filed for bankruptcy?

Yes, ma'am.

"Buyer misses two
or more consecutive payments.

Buyer fails to maintain full coverage
under insurance.

Any significant damage to the vehicle
that is not repaired in 30 days."

Did you notify Mr. Gick
of any damage to the car,

give him notice and say,
"Pursuant to the contract,

it has to be fixed in 30 days"?

We had talked about it when he came
to drop off one of his payments.

-And he said...
-Well, give me a month.

-It was...
-[Judy] A month and a year.

It was in June.

-[Judy] June of 2022.
-Mm-hmm. '22.

He came over to drop off a payment.

And that would have either
been on June 3rd or June 17th.

-Correct.
-[Judy] Okay.

And tell me about the conversation.

I said, "Hey, there is a dent
in the front now."

And he said he'll get it taken care of.

At that point,
I didn't really inspect the car 'cause...

I don't care what you didn't do.
I want to to know what you did.

Yeah, I told him, you know,
it needs to be fixed.

And he said he'll get it taken care of.

[Judy]
Okay. And?

When I repossessed it,
it was still there,

-as well as more damage.
-[Judy] Okay.

Did he talk to you
about the dent in the front?

I don't recall that conversation
ever happening.

There was text messages
sent to me about damage to the car.

The car had dents and dings
all over it when I got the car.

I mean, the front bumper
even had significant damage to it.

You repossessed the car
at the end of August.

Where is the car now?

At my house.

[Judy]
What's it doing at your house?

It's just sitting there for the moment.

Well, what's your intention
to do with the car?

Give it up in my bankruptcy or repair it
and keep it and pay it off.

Who has the title?

The title loan company.

[Judy]
So there was a loan on this car?

Yeah, there was a title loan on it.

Oh, you didn't tell me that.

That adds a different wrinkle
to this whole thing,

because you told me
you paid cash for the car,

so I assumed there was not a problem.

When did you take out
a title loan on the car?

-I took out the title loan...
-[Judy] Month and year.

One of them was in December of '21.

Did you know that there was
a title loan taken out on this car?

I knew that there was one.
I didn't know that there were multiple.

I don't know. But yeah,
I did know there was a title loan.

Did you know in what amount?

No, I was never...

[Judy]
Well, that's pretty dumb of you.

Yeah, I agree.

Well, 'cause if you're buying
something free and clear

that he owes nothing on,
that's one thing.

How much was the title loan?

Roughly $6,000 is what was all owed on it
still at that point when he bought it.

How much did you pay off?

Two thousand by that point.
It's super high interest.

Okey-dokey, Mr. Pickett,

your claim against
the defendant is dismissed.

I'm now entertaining his counterclaim.

-Do you understand?
-Yes, ma'am.

[Judy]
You get stuck with this car.

Now, the problem is,
you drove this car.

Yes.

[Judy] Was it your primary source
of driving, the car?

-Yes, it was.
-[Judy] Okay.

For one, two, three, four, five,
six, seven, eight, nine, ten months.

-Right?
-Yes.

Okay. So, Mr. Gick,
this was your primary vehicle.

How much do you think
it would cost you to rent a car?

Per month. Per month.
Give me a figure.

-To rent a car?
-[Judy] Yeah.

Per month, I would say $900 a month.

Probably something like that,


Okay, based upon what you told me,

it's not so egregious because you had
the use of the car for ten months.

I actually don't think
that an 11-year-old car

would cost that much to rent,
$900 a month,

considering that you
also paid for your own insurance.

Correct.

And if you rented a car,
that insurance would,

of necessity, come with a car.

Sarah, could you look up for me

best deals on leasing
a Dodge Charger?

I don't know what that is.

-Is that a truck?
-It's a car.

Is there a site
where you can look that up?

I'll see what I can find.

But the intention was that money

was gonna go towards, you know,
something that I would own outright.

Well, I understand that,

but you had full of his property
for ten months.

Sure.

You don't think it's fair for you
not to pay for some of that use?

I would think the depreciation in the car
for the mileage that I put on it

would be more than fair.

Absolutely.

Everything depends on
how much you put down

versus how much you pay monthly,
so there's a wide range.

Wide range. Give me the range.

-You didn't put any...
-I'm seeing 786 a month, 843 a month.

But these are for
brand-new Dodge Chargers,

-not for 2012.
-[Judy] Oh.

-So...
-[Judy] Okay.

And according to you,
the current low price on this car

is $7500?

-Price.
-For a private party, yes.

For a private party,
low price $7500.

[Sarah] Yes.

So you're gonna resell this car.

And the car
is currently in working order.

And the low price on that car
is $7500.

-Right?
-Yes.

And he's already paid you $5,000.

Yes.

In order to break even,
if you sold that car,

all you need is 2500 bucks.

Correct.

So I think that it's more than fair
to give you credit for the $2500

-from what you paid.
-Okay.

[Judy]
You paid five.

Half of that seems to me
a more than reasonable figure

to have full use of his property
and he repossessed the car.

I don't think he had any basis
to repossess the car,

which is why I dismissed his case.

And you certainly don't wanna
get involved with bankruptcies

and payments,
so you don't want this car back

because getting this car back
would be more trouble

for you than anything else.

Exactly.

I absolutely understand that.

Because then you're dealing
with his creditors and whatever

and not trusting
that whole situation.

And even I don't think that
you paying $2500 towards

the rental of a car
over a ten-month period

is unreasonable
and then he's whole.

Then if he wants to spend money
to have the car

spruced up before he sells it,
well, maybe he can get $8500 for it

and then he's whole.

So now everybody's happy.

Judgment on the counterclaim
for $2500.

We're finished.
Thank you very much.

-Thank you, Your Honor.
-[bailiff] This court is adjourned.

I'm very happy.

He needed a car, I had a car.

I don't think it was an honest transaction
on his part.

I'll keep buying and selling.

See, I think he was just trying
to get a quick payday.

So I just wanna make sure
I have this right.

The defendant was paying the plaintiff
$1,000 a month

towards the vehicle that the plaintiff
had a title loan out on.

But instead of
paying off the title loan

so the defendant would have the car
free and clear...

Free and clear, right.

...he decided to keep the payments
and not pay off the title loan.

-Title loan. Correct.
-Huh.

Which means that even after
he completed the payments,

-which he was halfway finished with...
-Mm-hmm.

-...he could not have gotten clear title.
-Yeah.

Because the title
is with the loan company.

And he's filed for bankruptcy,
so you can't come against him.

Slick.

-Yeah, sticky situation.
-Yeah.

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