02x32 - To Lease or Not to Lease

[bunniefuu]

You decided to rent a house together?

-Yes.
-And things weren't working out?

She's telling me
that I stole some of her stuff.

Did you file a restraining order?

She showed up at my children's
school while I was dropping them off.

Did you go to her kids' school?

I dro... Yeah.

I'm losing my patience slowly.

[narrator]
This is Judy Justice.

[narrator] Ellen Henderson
is suing her ex-roommate

Tara Williams for breaking a lease

and filing a false restraining order.

[bailiff]
Court, come to order. All rise.

Have a seat, please.

Hello, Judge. Case number 2023,
Henderson versus Williams.

-Thank you.
-[bailiff] You're welcome.

Ms. Henderson, you and your kids

and Ms. Williams and her
kids decided to rent a house together?

-Yes.
-And when was that initially?

We moved in January 21 of 2021.

[Judy]
How large a house was it?

-Five bedroom.
-[Judy] And who moved in with you?

Me, my two children,
Tara, her three children and...

-[Judy] The third roommate?
-[Ellen] Yes.

What was your share of the rent?

-The share of the rent...
-[Judy] Yours.

$1,495.

[Judy] And yours?

We paid... me and her split it
and then took cash from...

[Judy] The third roommate.

Yes. So $1,495, too.

[Judy]
And you lived there for a year.

What I gather is sort of
towards the end of the year,

things were getting a little
testy between the two of you,

either because
of you or because of the kids,

you had children
and things weren't working out,

so that both of you were
not really happy with each other.

-Would that be a fair statement?
-Yes.

It started earlier in 2021.

[Judy] I'm sure.
But at the time that the lease was up,

you both weren't
really happy with each other.

And according to your complaint,
she left, you were stuck paying the rent,

and she had signed a renewal of the lease,

and you want her
to pay her portion of the rent

until you found a new roommate,

which you actually found a
new roommate several months later.

The defendant says she told
you that she was contemplating

living with you for another year.

That her speculation
that you went into her room

and took a signed copy of the lease

and gave it to the
rental agent or whoever it was.

It would have been in the kitchen in
my area where my papers were.

[Judy] Whatever. And it was never
her intention to sign a second lease.

-Your lease was up in January of 2022.
-Yes.

[Judy] The defendant
was away for a period of time.

When was the defendant away,
just prior to January of 2022?

-She went to Hawaii for a week.
-[Judy] When?

I think she left on January 8th,
give or take a day. I don't remember.

And did you return the signed
copies of the lease to the landlord?

-No, they were turned in in December.
-[Judy] By both of you.

[Ellen] For the lease renewal,

all three of us resigned in December.

And I have a copy of that.

What I'm asking you is
where they turned in?

Because that's very easy to verify.

Were they all turned in
before she went to Hawaii?

-Yes.
-[Judy] Okay. I'll see what you have.

Well, Ms. Williams, if it's your statement

that she took
your signed copy of the lease

and turned it in without your permission

at some point when you were
in Hawaii, that's what you're alleging,

this doesn't bear that out. Ms. Williams.

I'm going to tell you,
it doesn't lend itself

to the truth of that statement,
because this indicates

that the two of you
and the third roommate

signed this on December the 19th.

Then you turned it in,
then it was turned in.

That was before you went to Hawaii.

The landlord signed it on December 20th,
which means that if the landlord

signed it on December 20th,
he signed it before you went to Hawaii,

which means you couldn't
have stolen your copy of the lease.

-Right.
-[Judy] Do you understand?

Yeah. No, I'm not stating
I was in Hawaii when she turned it in.

I left for Hawaii
January 8th through the 18th.

-[Judy] I understand that.
-Okay. I was unaware.

[Judy] Shh!

"When our lease was up for renewal.

We weren't getting along,
and I was on the fence about

spending another year with Ellen.

In December,
we received a copy of the lease renewal.

I felt pressured into signing it, but
then we told Ellen we needed more time."

Just you.
"I had to leave town."

Well, I don't know,
you don't have any witness here.

Because you say,
"I had to leave town, so I decided

to hold on to the lease until I returned."

Where did you go?

I went to Hawaii.

Well, that was in January.

-[Tara] Yes.
-Well, but the landlord got a copy

of the signed agreement December 20th.

I didn't know it was turned in.

-I didn't receive an email, so...
-[Judy] Well, I don't know whether

-it was turned in or not.
-So I emailed Redcon,

and I have messages
stating it was received from Ellen.

[Judy]
Okay, I'll see what you have.

No, this doesn't say that at all.

The lease renewal was
signed by all three tenants. Correct.

Lease was signed by all three tenants,
and it was received before

you went to Hawaii
on the 20th of December.

Okay, easy.

You moved out in February?

January 31st of '22.

When was the first lease up?

The 22nd of January '22.

So you stayed on after the lease was up?

-[Tara] Yes.
-Why?

I wasn't completely moved out yet.
I was in Hawaii.

I had reached out to Rincon about
paying extra to pay the extra few days.

Okay. And when
did you get a new roommate?

Did you keep blowing her off or
did you answer her?

-No, I did...
-[Judy] Just a second.

-I did not.
-Did you blow her off or did you answer?

So the answer is you blew her off.

-You blew her off.
-Yes.

About the rent,
which she was stuck with.

-Right.
-Right. Okay, good.

[narrator] Ellen Henderson claims
her ex roommate, Tara Williams,

broke their lease and filed a
false restraining order against her.

Tara is countersuing
for a security deposit,

utilities, and damaged property.

Okay. When did you get a new roommate?

She moved in...

April 18th.

-[Judy] Did she pay January's rent?
-Yeah.

So you're talking
about February and March?

February, March,
and then pro-rated April.

February and March.
$1,495. $2,990.

Okay. The next part of your case involves

filing for a false restraining order.

Did you file a restraining order,
Ms. Williams,

-against Ms. Henderson?
-Yes.

[Judy]
I'd like to see what it says.

No, don't give me that whole thing.

Your application for a restraining order.

I'd like to see what your application...

don't hand him that whole thing.

I said I'd like to see what your
application for restraining order said.

Okay, so what you say
is she sent you three letters.

You're asking because she sent
you three letters, they were annoy...

I want to know what she
was asking for in those letters.

Was she asking for rent money?

-Was she asking for rent?
-Yes.

-Okay, so she was asking for her money.
-Yes.

-For your rent money for the months
-Yes.

[Judy]
that she didn't have a roommate.

Well, that's not harassment, madam.

-There's more, but, you know...
-[Judy] What?!

Th-there's more.

She's telling me that
I stole some of her stuff.

And stuff... [stammers]

In...in the first letter it says,

"If you don't pay this
in five days, we'll take anything..."

She's allowed to say that. Okay.

-[Tara] Yeah, it's totally fine...
-So she wrote to you.

But she sent it two more times,
emailed it, and then showed up

at my children's school
while I was dropping them off.

Did you keep blowing
her off or did you answer her?

-No, I did not...
-[Judy] No, no. Just a second.

-I did not.
-Did you blow her off or did you answer?

So the answer is you blew her off.

Yes. I was fine with going to court.

-You blew her off.
-Yes.

About the rent, which she was stuck with.

-Right.
-[Judy] Okay, good.

$2,990 is what she owes you for rent.

Now, part of your counterclaim,
forget money for damages,

you get security deposit.

How much was her security deposit?

We paid equally between me and her.

No, how much did she pay?

-It was half of...
-How much was your security de...?

$1,747.50.

-[Judy] 1-7-4-7. Is that right?
-Yes.

-[Judy] Is that right?
-Yes.

Okay. And where is her security deposit?

In our lease, it states that
if you break the lease,

the deposit stays with the house.

And I have an email from
the property management stating

that same thing that she signed
at lease saying that if she leaves early,

the money stays with the
house until everyone moves out.

So the security deposit,

if you and your new roommate
keep the house safe,

-you're going to get back.
-Mm-hmm.

-[Judy] Is that right?
-Mm-hmm.

And you don't allege any damage,
is that correct?

I had to clean up the
carpets in her room upstairs and...

Okay. Do you have an invoice for that?

No, I did it myself.

Okay. 2-9-9-0... less 1-7-4-7?

$1,243.

So far she owes you $1,243.

That's less the security deposit,

which you and your hopefully
neat roommate will get back.

-May I say something
-[Judy] What?

about the payments for rent?

So it was me and
her doing equal rent at $1,795.25.

So that's what I paid...
me and her paid that in January,

and I paid that... I paid
the entire amount in February, March.

I understand
she was no longer paying rent.

You're getting the rent,
but I'm deducting from that...

My portion is $1,795.

And that's what I'm asking her for,

because that's what her portion was

-when she moved out as well.
-[Judy] Okay. Just a second.

Am I correct that she,
at the time you moved in,

individually paid as a security deposit
$1,747.

Is that correct?

Yeah, but I'm
talking about the rent payments.

It's not $1,495, it's $1,795.

Was your rent each month
$1,495 or $1,795?

$1,495.

[Judy] Can I see it?
Anybody have any proof of that?

I printed out the log,

but she paid us $300 each in cash.

So there no... She is on the lease,

but it does not show she was paying cash.

-You mean the third roommate?
-Yes.

-[Judy] The third roommate.
-Right.

-So your amount was $1,495.
-Correct.

-I got it.
-Until the end of December.

[Judy] Okay, I'm finished.

Now, the next part of
your counterclaim is the utilities.

Security deposit, you get back.

What utilities do you think she owes?

She did not pay me November, December,
January or February closing for utilities.

-Did you pay them?
-[Tara] I paid them.

I'd like to see it.
What do you pay them?

No, don't give me a whole bunch of papers.

I don't want to see a whole
bunch of papers that I have to go through.

I want to see what utilities there were.

-When you sent her...
-[Tara] Just, like, the bank...

When you sent her a
statement of what the utilities were.

Yes.

I assume it worked that she
paid you a portion of the utilities.

Yes, it was...

What portion of the utilities did you pay?

We split it equally the
whole time we were there.

Okay, so whatever
utility bills that were paid by her,

you were supposed to pay half.

-Correct. Which I...
-[Judy] Did...

My last payment to her was December


-That was twelve four.
-Mm-hmm.

How much did you pay her?

-$364.61.
-[Judy] Okay, just a second.

Did she pay you $364 in December?

She did for prior months.

[Judy] So that was for November.
That covered November.

If it was paid in December,
that covered November,

It would have been more so October.
I...

I can't... I can't get
involved with that, madam.

Don't give
him a whole bunch of papers.

Don't give him a whole bunch of papers.

December and January,
statement for utilities.

-You were gone in February?
-Yes.

December and January,
bills for utilities, did you pay those?

I did not, because
she left me with all the rent.

I understand that,
but now you're getting your rent.

Now we're going
to settle up on the utilities.

I didn't include it in the lawsuit,
but she still owes me for trash,

and I have a list of stuff
that she took on mine that I did...

I'm not interested in it, Ms. Henderson.

It didn't work out.
You should be very happy.

She's gone.
You didn't like her.

She overcharged me utilities
with her business expenses

-Okay.
-[Ellen] every month we lived there.

[Judy] Did you come in contact with her
on the 25th of May

in a pedestrian car incident?

Not that I recall.

About one minute to eight in the morning.

Who drives a white minivan?

Me.

[narrator] Ellen Henderson
has accused her ex roommate,

Tara Williams of breaking their lease.

Tara claims she filed the restraining
order because Ellen was stalking her.

Ms. Henderson, it didn't work out.

You should be very happy she's gone.
You didn't like her.

She overcharged
me utilities with her business expenses

-every month we lived there.
-Okay.

You have a bill for December and January.

If there's anything here
that's not December and January,

I'm dismissing that part of your claim.

And I already have a bill
that's dated April of 2022.

Right. That was for
January, February water.

That's $390.
Billing date, Four fourte...

Oh.

It was...

No. I want you
because I'm losing my patience slowly.

Please read out the bills,

the total bills for
December and January only.

Sarah, get ready.

Can it go till February 1st?

-[Judy] Yes.
-Okay.

By the way, while she's looking for that,
did you go to her kids' school?

I dro... Yeah.

I served her a letter of
default and a cease-and-desist letter

in the parking lot of her school.

-Kids.
-[Judy] Mm-hmm.

Because she didn't pick
up a letter from the mailbox.

She knew it was coming
from me and I had to go back

to the mailbox and get it after a month.

-[Judy] Okay.
-And I didn't know where she lived.

-I didn't know how else to reach her.
-[Judy] Okay.

Did you come in contact with her
on the 25th of May

in a pedestrian car incident?

Not that I recall.

About one minute to eight in the morning?

Who drives a white minivan?

Me. What was the date?

May 25th.

[Ellen]
Oh, yeah. That was her kid's school.

That was her kid's
school when I delivered the letter.

Well, that's why she filed for
protective order against you.

Not unreasonable.

It was dismissed after a
hearing or it was just dismissed?

-It was dismissed after a hearing.
-[Judy] Yeah.

Part of your claim for filing a
false restraining order is dismissed.

I could actually see why you
would get frightened if

somebody went to your
kids' school to serve you papers.

Okay. What are the bills for utilities?

-Can I just say something?
-Sure.

I had to give her those
letters in order to file for small claims.

[Judy] Okay.

I had tried to mail it and
she didn't go to the post office.

I got it.
Could we have the utilities?

Which utility and what is it?

You should have all this
together for me and not make it difficult.

This is why you were coming.

-Don't read out the numbers.
-[Tara] Okay.

What the utility is,
for what month, and the amount.

So, water $257.94.

Water for February was $132.09.

For 12/03 bill date
for electricity was $167...

What date?

-12/20...
-That's December.

-Yes, but...
-[Judy] That was for November.

I thought we were doing
December, January.

For December,
but you wouldn't have gotten

December's bill in December.

You would have gotten it in January.

It was prepared 12/03.

Right, but that was November,
it was prepared 12/03.

They're not prorated.
Come on, let's go.

Okay, uh, 2/04,
this was prepared for electricity.

-$74.72.
-Okay.

This one was for
the date that I ended at 1/28 to 2/01.

It was $12.78 for Edison electricity.

Let's move on.

And then this is gas for 12/29 to 1/27.

It was $37.04.

And then the ending charges was $5.72.

Got it? $5.72. I can't believe it. Can...

-Okay. Could you add those up?
-[sighs] Yeah.

And your arrangement
with her, Ms. Henderson,

was that you each
paid half of the utilities, is that right?

Yeah.
Can I say something about that, too?

Back in April or May of 2021,
I had went to her to speak

and ask about me paying less for water,

gas and electric because she
brought all of her airbnb laundry.

She has a cleaning business,

and our washers and dryers
were going constantly,

[Judy] And?

And she didn't meet me halfway,

-so I was stuck paying half.
-[Judy] Okay. Fine.

I have the total for you
whenever you're ready.

$507.51.

Divide it by two.

$254.

$1,243 less $254.

That's $1,243 is what she's owed now.

Less the security deposit.
I love this case.

Couldn't be more excited about it.

$989.

Judgment for the plaintiff, $989.

-[Tara] Your Honor, I had two...
-Thank you very much. We're done.

-[bailiff] Court is adjourned.
-[Judy] Thank you.

It's sad that I lost,
but I put up a good fight.

I'm happy with the decision.

If she didn't want to live with me,
that there were issues,

why would you turn in a lease to renew

for a whole 'nother
entire year with someone?

It's been a lot of stress.

I wanted her to file suit
so I could see her in court

in order to take care of the matter.

I had nowhere to go, and I didn't think

she was gonna renew, to be honest.

Zero roommates. Don't do it. [laughs]

I mean, I went into it thinking that
this was gonna be a good situation.

I really got along,
and I loved her and her kids, and...

I don't know that I could
have done anything different.

So the new phenomenon that
I've seen over this past generation

for as long as
I've been in this business

is because of the economy,

people having to live together

that are neither in love with each other

or related to each other.

I actually think, Sarah,
that's such a very hard thing to do.

You know, this is
the first case that we've had

that involved adults and their kids

having to, for financial reasons,
move in with each other.

I think I've always said,

and I don't know how you feel about this,

that I'd rather live
in a shoe box alone...

[chuckles]

than with strangers in more
comfortable surroundings.

Sure. I think that's a tough call that

a lot of people are
having to make nowadays

with the cost of living and inflation.

-Young people.
-Young people.

Two single mothers trying to live
together with their children

to give them a home environment.

So it's a risk that you take

when you don't know the other person.

Even when you do know them.

-we see family members fight all the time.
-They ch...

So I think it's a double-edged sword.

[Judy] Yeah, I don't know.
It's unfortunate.

It's unfortunate that people have to
make those kinds of choices for happiness.

Shouldn't create that kind of stress.

I think the best thing you can do is
have a concrete contract

to fall back on for...
if something like this happens,

because it's a very stressful situation.

But nobody wants to take that risk.

Nobody wants to... who's signing
a lease agreement saying

-If it doesn't work out,
-Yeah.

this is what happens.

Well, that's never between
the tenant and the landlord

-Mm-hmm.
-as between those two people.

-Maybe it would be enforceable,
-Yeah.

but not between
the two tenants and the landlord.

-Landlord still gets his money.
-[Judy] Landlord gets his money.

-Stay with people who you love
-Yeah. [chuckles]

-[Judy] or you have to love.
-True.

[narrator] Want justice?