01x51 - Fine Lines and Fire Arms

[bunniefuu]

I tried to purchase a handgun.

The Department of Justice had said
do not release the firearm.

If you're convicted with a felony,

it's for life that
you cannot have firearm.

Oh.

Did you ever go to prison?

No. I wouldn't say prison.

[announcer] This is Judy Justice.

[theme music playing]

[announcer] Yoonta Chao is suing
g*n shop owner, David Liu,

for the refund of a firearm.

[Kevin] Court come to order. All rise.

Have a seat, please.

- [Kevin] Good morning, Judge.
- [Judge Judy] Good morning, Kevin.

Case number 1149, Chao versus Liu.

- Thank you.
- You're welcome.

[Judge Judy] Mr. Chao,
what jurisdiction do you come from?

I...I don't understand.

- What state do you come from?
- Oh, California.

[Judge Judy] How long have you lived here?

I lived here all my life.

Thirty-five years.

What kind of work do you do?

I'm currently unemployed,
but before that, I was in human resources.

- How for long?
- For two years.

Your complaint is a simple one.

You felt, according to you,

the need to have a firearm for protection.

That's correct.

[Judge Judy] Was this the first time
you had felt the need for a firearm?

Yes. Yes, Your Honor.

Um especially during earlier this year
and last year due to Asian hate crimes,

I felt like, like not safe to the point...

like I didn't know
if they were gonna rob me at my car

or if they were gonna um burglarize my
house.

- So I felt the need...
- What kind of premises do you live in?

I live in a apartment complex.

[Judge Judy]
Had you in the past been threatened?

Uh no. Only...

- No?
- [Yoonta] No.

[Judge Judy]
The defendant owns a g*n shop?

Yes, Your Honor.

- In California?
- Correct.

[Judge Judy] How long have you owned
that shop, Mr. Liu?

Six years.

Is it close by to where you live?

Correct.

[Judge Judy] You went to Mr. Liu's shop
to purchase a g*n.

What kind of a g*n did you want?

I tried to purchase a uh handgun
which is a 9mm.

You wanted a 9mm g*n.

- Had you had any training with a g*n?
- No.

And you had never applied
for a g*n permit before?

Correct.

[Judge Judy] But according
to what I read in your complaint,


while you were in your 20s...

- [Yoonta] Correct.
- [Judge Judy] ...early 20s,

you had had either an arrest
or a conviction for something.

- Was it g*n-related?
- No. No, Your Honor.

Did you ever go to prison?

No. I wouldn't say prison.

I went to uh, uh, uh another form of
imprisonment.

I forgot. It was like county.
I...I...I'm not too sure.

It was to a point where uh uh all...
like everyone that committed a crime

was like together in a...
in a grouping, a household.

Like a halfway house?

Somewhat like that.

[Judge Judy] Could you leave the house?

No. Uh you only could leave
to do your work premises that's...

- that was uh supervised by the uh...
- Off premises or...

- [Yoonta] Yes. Off premises.
- [Judge Judy] Off premises?

- Correct.
- [Judge Judy] Okay.

Was that part of your sentence?

Was that your sentence?

No. That was just a part of just earning
good time so I could be released early.

So you were never in prison?

Uh not in prison in,
in that sense to the point

where I was locked down like 24/7
or anything of that nature, no.

[Judge Judy] Okay. And how long did you
have to remain in that kind of facility?

Uh I only stayed there near...close
to three months and then I was released.

- Was it a drug-related crime?
- No.

[Judge Judy] Since that time 13 years ago,
have you ever been arrested again?

No.

[Judge Judy] Was that the first time
you had been arrested?

Correct.

[Judge Judy] So that was the first
and only time you...

The first and only time
as a...a young adult, yes.

Prior to that, during my younger years,

of course, I was hanging around
the wrong crowd

because I...I lived originally
from Oakland, California.

It's a really rough neighborhood
during that time.

I...I associated myself
with the wrong crowd which...from there...

[Judge Judy]
So you were arrested as a juvenile?

Yes. Correct.

And this was the first arrest
and conviction as an adult?

Correct.

[Judge Judy] What date did you go in
to seek to purchase a weapon?

It was on May 21st, 2021.

[Judge Judy] And as part of that process,
you have to fill out paperwork.

- [David] Yes?
- [Judge Judy] Would you explain

the paperwork process to me, Mr. Liu?

[David] Okay. For California resident,
if you need to buy a firearm,

first of all, you have to take a firearm
safety certificate test which is...

[Judge Judy] Okay. Did he have that test?

Yes.

[Judge Judy] So, you had
a certificate to show him?

Correct.

[Judge Judy]
So you had taken some training?

[Yoonta]
No. I...I took it that same very day

because initially that's what he...

was part of the process of...
of purchasing a...a firearm.

So where did you go to take the test?

[Yoonta] At the same location.
At his shop.

[Judge Judy] So you showed him how to use
it

- and gave him the certificate?
- [David] No.

Uh I don't have to show him
how to use the g*n

but it's his responsibility
to know how to use the firearm.

Well, what is the certificate?
Is what I'm asking you.

[David] Uh the certificate contained
like thirty questions, uh

including like basic firearm laws and...

No. Do you have a copy of it?

- No, Your Honor.
- [Yoonta] I do.

[Judge Judy] Do you have a copy of it?
I'd like to see it.

Learning something.

[Sarah] Something new every day.

[Judge Judy] Well, this is
a dealer record of the sale of firearm.

What is the certificate we're talking
about that he has to fill out?

The test come up with 30 question,



[Judge Judy] Well, I'd like to see
the copy of the test.

[David] I don't have the test, Your Honor,

because he didn't ask me
to refund him the test.

[Judge Judy] Just a second.

Sarah, can you look up test for firearm,

a certificate.

And that's required
by the State of California.

Firearm Safety Certificate.

Firearm Safety Certificate.

I'm just curious what it looks like.

So, he filled out the form.

He got the certificate from you.

He filled out the form in front of you.

And then you have to fill out
another form?

Uh after he took the test.

He passed the test.

[Judge Judy] What kind of test
did he have to pass?

The Firearm Safety, Safety Certificate.

[Judge Judy] Did you study
before you went?

[David] No. I just had knowledge
of just firearm in general.

Just...it was just a lot
of common sense questions

that you have in regards
to uh California law.

I have the test, Your Honor.

Could I take a look at it, Sarah?

So this is a 50-page study guide
for the test.

And this is a self-test example
of what the test is.

Thank you.

You know, I'm gonna lose this whole thing.

[Sarah] No. You...you've got it.
Just...it's touch screen.

[Judge Judy] A safe practice
when handling...turn to page four.

Know your target.

As a safety measure, you should always be
pointed to the north, to the safest spot.

Up and down.

One of the safety rules to know
is how to probably clear a malfunction.

Turn to page five.

[Sarah] So there's a bunch of list
of different topics

that you should study for before the test,

and then on this document,
there's a few practice questions.

The test would just be those
few questions in the beginning.

It would be, like he said,


- Thank you.
- [Sarah] Uh-hmm.

[Judge Judy] Do you have any evidence
that he lied on this application?

That's either a yes or a no.

- That's not a well.
- [David] Yes.

In California,
if you're convicted with a felony,

it's for life that
you cannot have firearm.

Oh.

[theme music playing]

[announcer] Yoonta Chao claims
g*n shop owner, David Liu,

owes him a refund after purchasing a g*n
he never received.

[Judge Judy] Okay. Just curious, Mr. Chao,

did you fill out the answers
to these questions?

[Yoonta] Yes, I did.

- [Judge Judy] Did the defendant help you?
- [Yoonta] No.

How long did it take you
to fill out the form?

Uh it took about like maybe 20 minutes or
so.

And after you filled out that form,
then there's this...

- [Yoonta] Correct.
- ...document?

Because he has to be approved by
the Department of Justice, is that right?

Yes, Your Honor.

[Judge Judy] Okay. Well, this is
a purchaser's record of sale of firearm.

And it says has the purchaser
ever been convicted with a felony

or an offense as defined
in the penal code in the last 10 years?

Based upon Mr. Chao,
his conviction was 13 years ago.

- Is that right?
- Correct.

[Judge Judy]
So, he answered the question no.

And you purchased the g*n?

Correct.

[Judge Judy]
But you did not give him the g*n

until after you got a...an approval
from the Department of Justice?

- Correct.
- [Judge Judy] And so that was May 21st?

- Correct.
- [Judge Judy] How long did...Mr. Liu,

based upon your business of experience
of six years,

does it usually take to hear back
from the Department of Justice?

Usually, it will take about
two to four days,

depends on how busy they are
to get back to me.

- [Judge Judy] Okay. And this...
- [David] Only when they get denied,

reject, or some other reason.

Otherwise, uh after ten days,

the owner can come
and pick up the firearm.

So you have uh at least 10 days
for the Department of Justice

- to do the background check.
- [Judge Judy] Okay.

Yeah. And during the pandemic,
sometimes delayed it to 14 days.

- Of course.
- [David] But, if the purchaser is denied,

reject, or something,
usually that will come electronically.

- [Judge Judy] Okay.
- Much faster.

[Judge Judy] In Mr. Chao's case,

did you receive notification
from the Department of Justice?

- Yes.
- [Judge Judy] Okay.

He came and he paid you for the g*n.

How much did you pay him for the g*n?

I paid uh with tax and other fees,
in total, it'll be $1,370.

I have the invoice here as well too.

[Judge Judy] Okay.
He doesn't dispute the amount.

And when you heard back
from the Department of Justice,

on what day did you hear
from the Department of Justice?

[David] I got the notice on May 28th.

Do you have a copy of that notice?

- Yes.
- [Judge Judy] I'd like to see it, please.

[David]
And this is the electronic version.

And also the denied.

Thank you.

Okay. So you were advised on the 28th,
a week later,

that the Department of Justice had said

do not release the firearm
to the purchaser.

[David] Correct.

[Judge Judy]
When did you notify the plaintiff?

Uh on the same day.
I sent him a text message.

- [Judge Judy] Is that correct?
- That is correct.

- Did you ask why?
- Uh no. I just...essentially,

I went directly to a refund
from that point on.

- I didn't ask why as of yet.
- [Judge Judy] Okay.

So from the May 28th on,

you knew that
you could not release the firearm

that you were holding for the plaintiff

- for which you were paid $1,370.
- Correct.

If we were to examine your records, sir,
how many weapons did you sell that week?

- Really depends. Some...
- [Judge Judy] No.

- If we were to examine your records...
- [David] Uh-huh.

...from the 25th, 26th, 27th,
those three days...

Uh-hmm.

...how many g*ns would you say you sold?

How many a day do you sell?

Well, during the pandemic, it's crazy.

I can sell maybe 20 g*ns a day.

- And you hold them?
- Correct.

[Judge Judy] Until you get notification?

Correct.

[Judge Judy] Now this is the case.

You were denied for that.

You will have...will have to take up with
the Department of Justice, if you wish.

Your case is simple. You have the g*n.

You know you can't sell it to him
and you have his $1,370.

Now, I would like you
to explain to me, sir...

- [David] Uh-hmm.
- ...why you think he's not entitled

to his $1,370 back?

- And explain to this face...
- [David] Uh-hmm.

- [Judge Judy] ...very slowly...
- [David] Yes.

...why somebody who's been
in business thinks

that for holding on to this g*n
for five days

when he did not lie in his application,

because according to this,
his conviction was 13 years ago.

So, unless you have information
to the contrary,

which I will see, because certainly
if he lied on the application,

I might feel a little bit sympathetic

if you said I could have sold the g*n


but I held it because
he lied on the application.

So, first, do you have any evidence
that he lied on this application?

That's either a yes or a no.

- That's not a well.
- [David] Yes.

Yes? What is that evidence?

Because on the FSC,
the Firearm Safety Certificate test,

there's one question,

in California,
if you're convicted with a felony,

it's for life that
you cannot have firearm.

Oh.

See if you can find that
but that's not in the application

that you sent
to the Department of Justice.

[David] Yes. And also, there's a form
he has to fill out for the, uh...

- Just a second, but...
- [David] Yes.

...he wasn't denied
from the State of California.

He also filled out the form 4473
for the federal government.

Can I see it?

[David] And this is same question he say
no.

[Judge Judy] May I see it?

This is from the US Department of Justice.

Did you fill this out, sir?

I think I did. I...I'm not too sure

because I didn't...
I did not receive a copy.

The only copy I received was that...

[Judge Judy]
Well, it looks like you filled it out.

This is a sort of ambiguous question.

It says, "Have you ever been
convicted in any court

including a military court of a felony
or any other crime

for which the judge could have
imprisoned you for more than one year?

Even if you received a shorter sentence,
including probation." [chuckles]

So, it is unlawful for any person
who's been convicted of

or has an outstanding warrant
for any felony,

as well as there's a list
of specific misdemeanors

that also prohibit the ownership
of a firearm.

[Judge Judy] Okay.
So, what your statement is

this application was accurate

and what you indicate
is that this application,

which goes to
the US Department of Justice,

he said he had not been,
when in fact he had been?

[David] Yes.

Okay. So, Kevin, would you show this
to the plaintiff, please?

It looks as if, sir, you filled that out.

- Okay.
- [Judge Judy] And it's signed by you.

- I verified the signature.
- [Yoonta] No.

- I did mark a no on that.
- Okay. Got it.

Now, sir, so now he marked a no
when he should've written a yes,

for something that happened 13 years ago,

for which he was not really in a prison,
according to him,

sort of a halfway residence where
he was able to leave for...

go to work, outside work,
and then come back,

and he spent three months there.

According to him,
you have no information to the contrary,

and for the last 13 years,

he has not had any subsequent convictions.

Now, you have to explain to me
why you think he is not entitled to most,

if not all, of his money back?

Okay. Because, in my shop,
there are numerous, uh, people with felony

or something and they will try
and come to buy firearm.

That's why in all our contract,

not only in the small print,
also in the red print, we explain to them,

if they get denied in any way,
there's no refund.

May I see it, please?

[David] And also, at the store,

we have signs everywhere
to tell people that...

[Judge Judy] No, I wanna see the...
I'm not interested in the signs.

I'm interested in something
that he signed.

- [David] This is just one way to...
- [Judge Judy] Just a second.

- [David] Okay.
- This just says there will be no refund.

It doesn't say if you're denied
because of something.

No refund in any way.

It says no refund in any way.

It says...it says firearm
has to pay in full,

and then there's a crossing out,

upon any cancellation, deny, or revoke,

there will be a 30% restocking fee.

But that's crossed out.

Yes, because, uh, during the pandemic,
there's...all the g*ns are special ordered.

They were so limited,
we can't get any g*n in.

That's why we...

[Judge Judy]
Firearm has to be paid in full.

[David] That's why we have the red print.

And it's crossed out the...

crossed out, upon any cancellation,
deny, or revoke,

there will be a 30% restocking fee.

That's crossed out.

That's crossed out before he signed it.

[Judge Judy]
But all firearms are special order.

Well, that's not particularly
so in this case.

It was not a special order.
You had it in the shop.

Uh, it was a special order, Your Honor.

[Judge Judy] No, no.

Mr. Liu, did you resell the g*n?

I want you to think very carefully.

It's got a serial number on it.

- Yes.
- [Judge Judy] Just a second.

It's got a serial number
on it so it's easy to check.

[theme music playing]

[announcer] Yoonta Chao has accused
g*n shop owner David Liu

of refusing to refund him
for a g*n he never received.

Okay. Did you come back
more than once, sir?

- No.
- [Judge Judy] Okay.

So, that...the g*n that he showed you,
he had in the store?

[Yoonta] Correct. He had...

[Judge Judy] And that is the g*n
that you purchased?

That is correct.

And that is the g*n that you paid for.

Did you ask him to modify the g*n
in any way?

- No, I did not.
- Did you modify the g*n in any...

- No, we cannot do that.
- [Judge Judy] Hmm?

- We cannot do that.
- [Judge Judy] Okay.

So, the g*n that you showed Mr. Chao
was the g*n that he selected.

It was not modified in any way.

You were holding it.

Pending receipt of this, this came back.

He could not purchase the g*n.

It most, if you hadn't crossed out
this section,

you would've been entitled
to a 30% restocking fee for the g*n

but you crossed it out.

It's crossed out of your contract.

So, Mr. Liu, he's entitled
to his money back.

- Your Honor...
- [Judge Judy] Did you sell...

did you resell the g*n?

I want you to think very carefully.

It's got a serial number on it.

- Yes.
- [Judge Judy] Just a second.

It's got a serial number on it
and so it's easy to check.

- [David] Yes, I'm being very...
- Did you...

- [David] ...honest to you, yes.
- Of course. Did you resell the g*n?

- Yes.
- [Judge Judy] Yes.

And how much did you resell the g*n for?

[David] I have to check
because the prices is... was vary

- because during the pandemic...
- [Judge Judy] Okay. Just a second.

- So, it was up and down?
- Yes.

[Judge Judy]
Some people paid a little more

and some people paid a little less?

So you actually got paid twice
for this g*n?

[David] Yes.

[Judge Judy] How much
did you pay for the g*n?

Well, add on everything...

[Judge Judy] No, no, don't,
don't add on anything.

Just tell me, how much did you pay
for the g*n, your cost?

Your Honor, because the g*n...

during the pandemic,
it's so, so different...

[Judge Judy]
No, no, I just asked you, sir.

[David] [indistinct] made me to buy...
to buy other things to go with g*n, so...

- No, no, listen to me.
- [David] Yes.

Mr. Liu, I'm a very simply girl,

born and raised in Brooklyn
and I'm really not good in math.

It's a gene...this math gene is a gene

unfortunately that I passed on
to my children

and they passed on to their children,

so I want to ask you a question
that's very simple.

You sold him this g*n for $1,370.

You sold it again
for around the same price.

Let's say you sold it for $1,200.

So, now, we have $2,500
that you have for this g*n.

I wanna know how much you paid for it.

You don't have to give me
the exact amount.

- Sarah, can look it up...
- I pay close to $600.

- [Judge Judy] Hmm?
- I pay close to $600.

- Close to 6?
- [David] Yes.

[Judge Judy] Okay.

Well, that's a pretty substantial amount
of profit that you made on that one g*n,

even if you sold it to somebody else
for $1,200,

you would've had a pretty
substantial profit on that g*n.

So, you're gonna give Mr. Chao
his money back

because he deserves it back
and you resold the g*n,

and you had no damages
from the fact that...none whatsoever.

It's not as if you got stuck with the g*n.

And the contract can actually
be interpreted in his favor,

and I think...a reasonable person
and that would be me

'cause I'm a very reasonable person.

Am I a reasonable person, Whitney?

Very reasonable.

See? Whitney thinks
I'm a reasonable person.

Judgment for the plaintiff
in the amount of $1,370.

We're finished. Thank you.

[Kevin] Court is adjourned.

If there's a convicted felon,
he should never even step into a g*n shop.

I was at the wrong place
at the wrong time.

My friend called me up to go pick him up,

and, and because of that
I...I...I was convicted.

And he went to a g*n shop
tried to buy a g*n.

I didn't do research
until after I was denied a refund.

That's when I actually went through
the extensive search

of...of...of, like, the history
of owning, uh, a firearm.

I'm surprised he will come to g*n shop
and try to buy a g*n.

I am ecstatic actually for the judgment.

[Sarah] So, I actually disagree with you
on that last one.

I think, that people really have
to read the contracts that they're signing

and they are bound
by those written contracts.

And I understand that you interpreted it
in a certain way

and that's how you made your decision
to give him his refund,

but I think that if courts continue
to do that

and continue to bail people out

after they don't read things
that they're signing,

that have legal significance,

I think the courts are gonna be bogged
down with people looking for refunds

when they signed something
that they're bound by,

saying they don't get one.

[Judge Judy] Okay. It's a perspective.

I felt comfortable
with giving his money back

because there was a condition precedent.

[Sarah] Uh-hmm.

Upon which he could take possession
of the g*n

and the condition precedent was approval
by the Department of Justice.

He couldn't actually take possession
of the property.

Now, I can understand that
if you got possession of the g*n,

you took it home, you said,
"You know what, this is too hard.

I tried to sh**t it, I couldn't sh**t it."

"I wanna take it back."
Well, I can understand that's a no refund.

You know, it's like wearing a dress
and putting the tag inside,

which I've never done,
I then bring it back the next day,

but I know people who will do that.

- So that's why it says, "No refund."
- Uh-hmm.

[Judge Judy] But in this case,
the condition precedent

which was getting approval
could not be realized

and I don't think it was through any...

Fault of the plaintiff.

[Judge Judy]
...fault of the plaintiff because

that section that discussed a felony

where you could've been imprisoned
for more than one year,

well, you don't remember
if you've been convicted of one felony

as an adult in your whole life

whether a judge could've sentenced you
for more than a year

but sentenced you to only three months
in a different kind of facility.

- Uh-hmm.
- [Judge Judy] In a halfway house.

So, I don't think that he was trying
to obfuscate the truth.

- Uh-hmm.
- [Judge Judy] I think

that he tried to answer
the questions honestly,

- and that he has not been in trouble...
- [Sarah] Yeah.

[Judge Judy] ...for well over a decade
and the defendant had no loss.

Yeah, I understand that, but I also
was sympathetic with the defendant

speaking about in his g*n shop,

having people who have felonies coming in
constantly, trying to get g*ns.

How are you supposed to protect yourself
as an owner of a shop

that's trying to make money
when that becomes a problem.

[Judge Judy] Absolutely right.

That if you come in
and you fill out the form,

and you're holding the form, and you say,

"Well, maybe somebody
who's gonna take a hiccup

over the Department of Justice
when they look at my papers."

Maybe, they'll put it through,

and then you've taken that g*n
out of circulation

but that really wasn't the case
in this case.

And the defendant suffered no damage.

[Sarah] True.

He resold the g*n
and it was really unjust for him

to make five time...
five hundred percent on his money.

He made more than double on his money...

- Yeah.
- [Judge Judy] ...on the second sale.

Yeah.

[Judge Judy]
So I think that it ended fairly.

- [Sarah] No, I do.
- But I agree with you,

that too many people sign contracts

and don't read the fine print,
and then when something happens,

and somebody points out
the fine print to them,

they're surprised. So, it's a good lesson.

- [Sarah] Yeah.
- You're right.

Read the contract before you sign it.

- Take the extra five minutes.
- [Sarah] Uh-hmm.

[announcer] Want justice?



[theme music playing]