05x04 - Episode 4

[bunniefuu]

♪ funky pop beat playing ♪

I am learning the tools

and-and-and the...

whatever therapy words.

We are actively working on my internal voice

and changing my internal voice

so that it isn't ruining every situation I ever walk into.

[Orna]People are coming somewhat better educated

with a certain kind of therapeutic vocabulary.

I'm crazy right now.

But what kind of crazy?

Major depressive disorder.

Uh, PTSD, anxiety.

[Orna]When people import a certain kind of concept

from the mental health world,

I'm happy that they're inviting psychological language,

and then we start thinking about

what they're actually trying to say to me.

He is a bottom-up conversationalist.

[Clinton] Bottom-up processor.

[Shay] And I'm a bit of an avoidant.

And he's anxious-attached.

Eh...

I have been diagnosed

with ADD, ADHD.

I've had behavior problems and anger issues,

uh, poor impulse control, emotionally disturbed.

Like, the list goes on and on and on.

♪ funky pop music playing

♪ mellow pop music playing ♪

[Orna]Shay is a highly ambitious person.

She's modeled in the past,

and she wants a reliable,

secure life for herself.

But, for Clinton,

he just left his mom's home quite recently.

[Virginia] Uh-huh.

So, he's kind of had

somewhat of a belated adulthood.

-Mm-hmm. -He's adult-ing right now.

-[Virginia] Yeah. -Um...

And she's both tolerant of it,

but also somewhat impatient.

Because there's a lot

that she wants him to improve on,

and there's a lot of shame he feels

for not being able to really catch up.

It's the push and the pull.

The push and the pull.

-[exhaling] -Sit down.

What are you doing?

[laughs]

Oh, Lord, your energy today.

Clinton is my youngest boyfriend.

I've never had a boyfriend who-- My age.

-[Orna] Mm-hmm. -I've only dated men

ten, years older than me.

[Orna] Why?

I find men my age very immature,

and they can't resonate with me always

on a level where...

the stability I'm looking for.

And so, with someone my age,

it's a bit more challenging.

I always say Clinton brings out the child in me.

-Mm-hmm. -[Shay] He makes me laugh.

But, like, I can tell I'm easily aggravated.

-[Orna] With him? -Yes.

And I don't know why.

When I first met him,

he had autism then, but he wasn't diagnosed.

So he was living as if he just had ADHD.

-[Orna] Mm-hmm. -And so,

I feel like when he got his diagnosis for autism,

he began to de-mask

and say, "I'm just gonna be my most authentic self

and show up like that every day."

I mean, I consider you my safest person to be around,

so yeah, like, it's gonna give me

the luxury to unmask.

None of my friends want to spend time with him

because they-- They struggle to find relatability to him.

-'Cause he-- -[Orna] How is this...?

I'm used to it.

But how do you feel?

Do I feel excluded? Yes.

-[Orna] Yeah. -I do.

Mm-hmm.

I am not saying it to be abrasive

or to be critical of him,

but sometimes I feel like he uses

his ADHD and his autism as a defense line

for him growing as a person.

I think you just lost him.

I don't use it as an excuse, man.

It frames every single aspect--

It is like you being trans.

-But-- -No, I'mma be real with you!

It frames my experience every day of my life.

I have to go back and reframe my entire childhood.

I hear you.

And I want to understand you.

But I feel sometimes,

because you just got your diagnosis,

you're in this positioning of using it

as a quandary for bad habits.

[Orna] Uh, Shay, I think you're on tricky grounds.

Let's find another way to say this.

[Shay] Okay.

Sometimes...

I'm not gonna say that level of authenticity

becomes too much.

-[Orna] Too much for you? -[Shay] Yes.

He doesn't recognize that I'm overwhelmed

by, like, the level at which he's approaching me.

-[Orna] I see. -He's not cognitive of it.

Do you have an example?

[Shay] I have a great example.

I'm taking a work trip to Syracuse.

I'm packing the night before for the trip.

I wanted a charger for my computer.

A Mac charger that I specifically wanted.

I said to put it in the luggage, and Clinton was like,

"You don't need this. You have this other thing."

We continued that argument for another hour.

Because I didn't get a chance to say the reasoning.

She just said, "This is what I want, and that's it."

What would it be like to just let it slide?

I just want to make sure you understand

where I'm coming from, and I'm ready to--

I would've been ready to drop it

because I just wanted to just get that out.

Except he got aggravated because I wasn't agreeing with him

and swatted a box halfway across the room at me.

I didn't swat the box-- Well, yeah, I did.

But I didn't swat the box at you on purpose.

I'm stimming and I'm reregulating myself.

And I'm, like, swinging my hands.

[Orna] Question. Question.

Do you know how to pick your battles?

[Clinton] Like, sometimes.

I see what she's saying.

I hear how she's feeling.

Here's another alternative.

But then, if you offer something

and she says, "I don't want that"?

I mean, it's the way she says it.

-If she said it like, "Hey..." -[Orna] If she said it nicely?

Yeah! 'Cause, like, she gets really angry.

-Mm-hmm. -And it's like,

I didn't do anything wrong.

I was just trying to help.

[Orna] Yeah.

Since you're in couples therapy,

the question you have is,

how do you affect each other,

invite each other to accommodate each other.

Let's just pose this, like,

idea of, like,

choosing your battles

and deciding that you're gonna let go of,

let's start with, like,

% of the things

you usually get stubborn about.

-[Shay] We're both so stubborn. -Obviously.

[laughing]

-I could try that. -One out of four.

[Clinton] One in four. Right. Okay.

-Mm-hmm. -Okay.

Let's see how that goes.

I'm an overachiever. I'll try to do .

-[Orna] Okay. -[laughing]

We may actually have a higher success rate

if that's the case.

Okay.

♪ soul music playing ♪

♪ You gotta show it ♪

♪ Peggy, I'm in love with you ♪

♪ Ooh, show it ♪

♪ What more can I do now? ♪

♪ Oh, show it ♪

♪ What more can I say? ♪

♪ Go show ♪

♪ I've been trying all day ♪

♪ We both know sweet talkin' ain't enough ♪

♪ We got to show it ♪

♪ Oh, baby ♪

♪ Baby, we got to show it ♪

♪ Yeah ♪

♪ I wanna tell you how much I love you ♪

♪ Wait and see ♪

♪ But you don't really want enough for me ♪

♪ You got to show it ♪

♪ Oh no, I'm in love with you ♪

♪ Show it ♪

♪ What more can I do? ♪

♪ You got to prove it ♪

How do you think I lost weight?

I don't know, but it's--

You're significantly thinner.

Next year, it's my turn for people to notice.

You know, dedication, hard work, and sacrifice.

I know. Stop making me feel bad about myself.

It's f*cking annoying.

[Oran] How are you two?

Oh, it's a nightmare.

-[laughing] -Oh, it's a complete--

Okay.

-[Marjorie] Well, we just moved. -[Jason] Complete nightmare.

It's just, like, stressful with the whole move,

-and I feel like we are... -Yeah.

...fighting a little bit, but...

Anything you want to talk about?

I-I didn't do any of the boxes yesterday.

I just sat home with my kids, you know,

went to the stores here and there, did errands with them.

So he came home and he is--

Now, he's like, "You're so lazy."

I don't like when he calls me lazy.

He called me lazy, and I just remembered

all of the other times and issues of him

sitting home playing video games

and doing nothing in the house.

You're saying that it...

Something happened when Jason called you lazy?

Oh, yeah. It got--

Pissed me off because I'm not.

[laughs] I work hard. I-I work very hard.

Do you want to keep going?

I'm trying to understand what's weighing on you.

I'm having, like, a lot of feelings, also,

about his weight loss journey,

and I'm feeling a lot of self-hatred for me,

and I think I'm taking it out on him also.

So when he called me lazy, it's just all connected.

-[Orna] I see. -But I'm--

Really, feelings about yourself?

Yes.

You know, even when we were driving today,

he's talking about, "Are you gonna join a gym?

Who are you gonna go with? Are you gonna bring a friend?"

Or, "You can do this," and, "You should just do this,"

and, "Did you or did you not talk about that?"

Like, I don't need somebody to go to the gym with.

I don't need it. I can go by myself.

I'm really sorry you're so sensitive over the situation.

I'm very sensitive.

I got a little workout buddy,

and I said, "He's keeping me motivated,

and I'm keeping him motivated."

I said, "Maybe you can hook up with somebody

and get kind of the same thing."

Going with a friend.

-But it sounds-- -[Jason] You know?

Jason, it sounds like you're really trying your best

to offer good advice, to be supportive.

But if you listen,

how is it landing?

-It's not. -[Orna] It's not.

-It's not. It's terrible. -[Orna] Okay.

You could be helpful

by listening and caring.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right.

Yeah. Okay.

[Orna] We talked about Jason's background.

Can you tell us something about your background?

Childhood, parents, growing up.

-Like... -[exhales]

I had good parents growing up.

I had a great family.

It seemed to be a perfect childhood, honestly.

In what way was it perfect?

Um, love, support, you know. A stable house, never moved.

My parents were so in love.

And then when I got-- I'm getting a little emotional.

Um, as I got older in my twenties,

I noticed that my mom is...

She was different as, um, like, when I was little.

But as a young adult, it was--

It was different, you know? I could tell.

It's hard to talk to her. I don't tell her many things.

She's loving, and I know she loves me,

and she's the wonderful grandma, and--

And I love her. It's just a difficult--

As I get older, it's a difficult relationship.

I see it now. As I'm years old, I see it.

It's all about appearances and, you know, how--

How it looks to other people and her friends.

Can you say a little more about the appearances?

Describe it more?

You know, me getting knocked up at .

Forcing me to get married

'cause it's the right thing to do.

Shaming?

Yes.

Like, I'm the black sheep of the family.

I always have been.

For whatever reason, I just know I am.

What made you the black sheep?

[Marjorie] Getting divorced and then, like,

doing my own thing.

[Orna] You somehow came to feel

inferior or bad about yourself?

-Yeah. -That's one of the feelings?

I think so, yeah.

-I've never talked about it... -[Jason] Mm-hmm.

...out loud, and having it registered

is maybe why I feel the way I feel.

[Orna] Which is?

-Self-loathing and... -[Orna] Mm-hmm.

...bad about myself.

Mm-hmm. So, it's connected.

[Orna] These are feelings

that you're carrying for a while?

-Come from your family? -[Marjorie] Yeah.

Yeah. Yes, I guess so, yes.

Even with the weight, even when I was a kid.

My mom put me on Weight Watchers.

I was never fat, but in seventh grade--

-I didn't know that. -[Orna] That's interesting.

I did not know that.

[Orna] Okay, this is interesting information.

Say more.

I remember she had lost weight

with Weight Watchers,

and she put me on Weight Watchers.

That was my time with my mom.

-How old were you when...? -[Marjorie] Seventh grade?

-Twelve? -Twelve.

Twelve.

-[Orna] Thirteen. -Thirteen.

-[Orna] That's ridiculous. -When you're a girl

about to hit puberty, it was...

That's bad. Yeah. I didn't think about it.

-[Jason] Wow, I-- -That's f*cked up.

That makes sense to me now why everything is so--

[Orna] Why this is going to be very triggering.

-And sensitive. -Yeah. Yeah. Sensitive. Yeah.

-[Marjorie] I guess so, yeah. -You're stepping into something.

Sorry, I apologize.

I had no idea that that even happened.

And now I feel terrible about everything that I say about me,

and then you having to see me and then...

oh God, that's f*cked up.

Oh, man.

It's deep.

I think my relationship with my mom was, maybe,

looking back, always a little bit...

-Complicated. -Complicated.

-[Orna] Yeah. -It was complicated. Yeah.

I didn't think about it at the time, you know?

And-and the only time I was, like, really...

not healthy, thin...

is when I met you, you know?

I was living off of--

Dunkin' Donuts and cigarettes.

-[Marjorie] Coffee, cigarettes. -Up all night.

[Marjorie] Up all night working.

Another thing that annoys me, I have to say,

is I'm a little annoyed because you loved food.

We would go out to eat, and you would just eat anything.

I still love food! I'm hungry now!

[Marjorie] So, I gained weight

because it was part of our lifestyle.

You met me hot, got me fat,

and now you're leaving me again.

-[laughs] But I'm not, though. -I know.

I'm totally not.

And I-- Again, I'm really sorry,

and whatever you do,

whatever you need, you just ask me

and I'll be there for you.

-I know you will. -And that's it, you know?

-I know. -I'm gonna leave it like that.

Well, you know, it's digging in, ripping it out.

-[Orna laughs] Yes. -[Marjorie] Thank you.

[Orna] Okay. Good night.

-[Marjorie] Bye. -[Jason] Oh man.

I smell steak, I'm so hungry.

-[Marjorie] Dude, she's good. -[Jason] Out of control.

It's like child sh*t that's still there, but it's smaller.

You're adult, but it's, like, inside.

Digging in, digging in, pulling it out.

♪ funky bass music playing ♪

Anything else?

[indistinct chatter]

No, I'll do it. Take them out. Which ones?

[Nessa] We just came back from vacation.

[Orna] Mm-hmm.

Went to go visit my mom in Florida,

had a family reunion.

Things were well.

And...

we got back, and the wall.

The wall's built back up.

And this morning, we woke up, and she's like this,

where she doesn't want to talk, she doesn't want anything.

And so...

Feel free to fill in the blanks.

From the start of the vacation, it was so pretend.

She hasn't worn her wedding rings

in almost a f*cking year,

but we're going to see her mom, and here she is with her--

With her rings on.

Like, is that supposed

to make me feel good?

Is that-- Like--

[Orna] How did it make you feel?

It made me feel... not good.

I thought it made you happy that I wore them.

That your pretend--

That this thing that is supposed to be

a symbol of this unity between people

can only be worn when we're around certain family members

so that it looks like we are a normal,

happy, regular married couple,

and then as soon as she f*cking comes home,

it goes back upstairs, back in the--

The ring tray to never be worn again.

That was the trigger for your upset?

[Drea] No.

I don't know how to explain

that on Monday, she's great and she's lovey-dovey,

and then on Tuesday, she's walking through the house

like I'm a f*cking guest who's outstayed my welcome.

I don't know how to explain that to someone.

I...

wanted...

to go through therapy

to try and structurally rebuild

the things that we're lacking

and refill things that had been depleted in our marriage.

I think that we should pivot

to conversations around a proper separation

and what this structure

looks like moving forward.

I'm done talking about Ronessa's feelings,

and what she's going through,

and what she wants to change, and how she feels.

I am done. I don't care.

I don't know what the romantic relationship is.

I don't know what it-- What it is.

Less than hours ago,

she asked me to look up the in vitro balance

on our health insurance

so that we could have another baby.

-[Orna] Mm-hmm. -Today...

This morning she could barely--

We-we couldn't even speak to each other

in the house together.

That was on me?

But what happened yesterday?

Uh, help me understand what's going on in your life.

We came home from vacation yesterday and...

And...

as soon as we crossed the threshold,

it felt like she turned into a different version of herself.

She was unhappy to be home with me.

Do you recognize any of that?

Yes.

And when did the baby comment

come in in all of this?

Because I want our daughter to have a sibling

and I--

Me and Drea want another baby.

Are you proposing, like, a different kind

of kinship structure

where you're not a romantic couple...

but you're having a family?

I see our romantic relationship

separate from our ability to co-parent

and be a loving parent-- Be loving parents to our child.

I see that differently. It's different lanes for me.

-[Orna] But Andrea says no. -She says no.

[Orna] Yeah, she wants all of it.

She wants all of it, correct.

-[Orna] In one package. -Correct.

Do you have any interest

in talking about this kind of different...

kinship structure where you're...

I mean, it is what it is, right?

I'm supposed to just...

[Orna] You're not supposed to anything.

...move on with my life and be happy

watching the person that I love

go on and do whatever they want to do.

[Orna] Meaning, you're saying you're preoccupied

with the fact that there's a separation on the table.

I didn't say I was preoccupied, you said I was.

You're asking me a question and I'm telling you

that me being in love with someone who...

[Orna] Who doesn't want that kind of love

and the pain of that.

Let's talk about that.

I don't want to.

Well, I think, Ronessa,

that that is something for you

not to gloss over

with a good story of what things can be.

So then what's the next step?

[Orna] I don't know what's the next step,

but let's be here now.

[sighs]

-It's uncomfortable. -[scoffs]

I'm not saying that to say that it should be comfortable.

I'm just saying it's uncomfortable.

[crying softly]

I feel like I can't breathe.

[crying]

Please.

[sniffling]

It's sad, it's tragic, this place that you're in.

What-- Does it feel like you're gonna do something

to try to get away from the discomfort of it?

I drink.

[both laugh]

Because it was so uncomfortable?

Yep.

I feel like I live in a world

where I'm uncomfortable in so many situations

that I shouldn't have to deal with that at home,

and, unfortunately, I deal with it

in maladaptive ways.

Describe your discomfort.

[sniffles]

Um...

I don't know. I don't have a lot of friends.

And a lot of friends that I really loved growing up,

you know, somehow, some way abandoned me.

[Orna] How do you mean that?

[scoffs]

Um, I had a best friend in high school

who, when I found out I liked a girl, just--

And I mean, we were peanut butter and jelly.

We were tight. And as soon as I--

And I was excited, and I told her,

and she just said,

"Oh, don't talk to me anymore," and that was it.

-Wow. -[Nessa] And it felt very bad.

I had a friend I was growing up with

who, there were boys in the neighborhood

who spread stupid rumors and lies,

and she just stopped talking to me.

Just clear abandonment. Just done.

I take friends to heart.

It really means more to me than a marriage

because I didn't know the value of a marriage growing up,

because I didn't have the best examples.

And so, when I realized during the course of our relationship

that I wasn't fulfilled,

I just switched on the best friend.

I still love her. Still my best friend.

I'm still going to do whatever I can to support her.

Whereas for her, it's like this way or none.

And that feels like...

abandonment.

A hundred percent.

And it just feels very...

alone.

And I don't know if there's anybody in my life

that really understands me a hundred percent

on top of me trying to figure my damn self out.

[Orna] Yeah.

I can't help.

You can't help?

But to feel like I wasted years of my life.

How is any of this a waste?

[Orna] Say more, Andrea.

This isn't a waste.

None of it is. This is our life.

[Orna] Ronessa.

-You're-- -[Nessa] But it's not a waste!

But hold on. But you're--

You have very great convincing powers.

[scoffs] I'm not trying to convince her.

[Orna] You are.

Listen...

Describe how it's a waste.

I invested in this with my own view

of what the future would be, how it would look,

how we would be...

what I wanted from this...

what am I-- What do I have?

A best friend who thinks that I'm not good enough

to help elevate her in life?

Yeah.

I mean, we're gonna--

I-I-I don't know where this process is going,

but if we're talking about, really,

the two of you separating,

let's give it some time to understand this.

Really intense feelings come up.

And I think Andrea is trying to speak to...

the pain, the anger,

the betrayal...

that a separation entails.

"Betrayal" is an interesting word.

Every separation has in it, laced in it,

is betrayal of all the dreams you had together.

Doesn't mean that someone is a villain.

Well, I'm clearly the villain in this story.

[Orna] Well, you're initiating a separation.

So, I'm the villain?

You have a certain kind of responsibility in that.

Doesn't make you a villain. It's just...

Tomato, tomahto.

[chuckles]

♪ mellow music playing ♪