♪soft
piano♪
My mother was very
young when she had me
and her escape
was probably,
you know,
getting high.
It was a
volatile,
violent
environment.
Having a baby
is, like...
the only thing that I
have known in my life
that I want.
I'm not
gonna...
bring a child in
to fix something.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
I view...
sex a lot
of ways.
I- I see it like, uh...
like, eating and
like sleeping.
I have to do
it every day.
You don't
wanna be...
okay with not
doing it.
That is not a
sign of health.
That's sign of
something...
-else.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
[Mau] And I want
to fix that.
[Annie] I get home,
it's like 9:30
something late
like that.
Mm-hm.
I- I shouldn't
have to tell you
to do this thing...
[Orna]
Thing like...?
Cook.
Like, I shouldn't say,
"Are you cooking?"
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
And then if I say
that, he'll say,
"Do I have a choice?"
But- and this is--
it goes back
to me saying,
"He d- he
doesn't care."
He does not-
if it does not have
a direct affect on him,
he does not care.
I'm just curious w-
when exactly did
all of this happen?
During the week.
It- it- what day
during the week-
I don't remember.
...did I not cook?
I- because I've
been cooking.
This brings us right to
the end of last session-
Mm-hm.
...where you're
saying,
"You see?
He doesn't care."
-[Elaine] Mm-hm.
-And I said,
"I think he's angry."
Those are, like...
vastly different kinds
of feelings.
♪funky bass and
drum beat♪
♪♪♪
[Desean] She'll text me
throughout the day.
This is one of the things
we still fight about
-all the time.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
I screenshotted
a text exchange
-between us.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
She asked me
a question
and if you look
at the time,
let's say it was,
you know, 3:01.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
And then she'll-
she texts right
after that, 3:02,
"Why aren't yo
answering me?"
t- one minute later.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
I'm just curious,
do you have any thoughts
that are not, like,
within it but, like,
thoughts about
this dynamic?
I will say that, um...
I hold onto...
a feeling.
Something he did made
me feel a certain way.
[Orna]
What's the feeling
-that keeps coming?
-Insecure. Insecure.
-Insecure.
-[Orna] Insecure.
Absolutely, because
if you don't pay m-
What you keep
going back to
that I think is
the feeling is
-"he doesn't care."
-[Elaine] He doesn't!
Well...
[Elaine]
I'm sorry.
Let's not equate the
feeling with truth.
The feeling that you
keep going back to
ultimately is
"he doesn't care."
Correct.
Right? So that kind of
colors everything.
Yep.
[Orna] He's busy equals
"he doesn't care."
He doesn't go to the gym
equals "he doesn't care."
Right? There- there's-
there's a deep-seeded
"he doesn't care."
Now, I wanna
hear more.
We just touched
a little bit...
on your history.
But for sure, what
you've described
is a lot of...
"no one cared."
Right? And a lot
of loneliness
and a lot of doing it
on your own.
[sighs]
-Mm-hm.
-[Orna] Right?
Oh, and you're- you're
taking a deep breath.
I'm sorry, I'm goin'
right in there.
[breaths in and out]
[breaths in and out]
What's the matter?
What's the matter?
Whoo.
[exhales]
[exhales heavily]
-Interesting.
-Mm-hm.
[Elaine]
Very interesting.
[sniffs]
Ah, do I have
raccoon eyes?
No.
-No?
-No.
[softly]
Okay.
I think...
from a very early age...
that was pretty much
-the narrative.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
[Elaine] I left my
grandmother's house
when I was 15
and I was free,
I was free.
Um...
-but-
-[Orna] Free, but alone.
Free, but alone.
Free, but alone.
Um...
and then...
you know, as a-
as a young kid,
you don't know what
you're doin', right?
So you're gonna go back
to what feels safe.
And so I kept goin' back
to my grandmother...
and um...
you know, you-
you don't think people...
will do things...
until you see it.
Like, I feel like-
Are you thinking of
something in particular
when you're saying that?
My grandmother and my-
my father's people
didn't like my mother...
and...
the cops were lookin'
for my mother.
I knew where
my mother was.
I had come in and
they were in the back,
my grandmother
and my aunt.
And they were plotting because
the detectives were coming,
looking for my mother
at my grandmother's house
And...
they- they were
gonna say that I...
told where my
mother was
and the cops took
my mother.
My mother went to jail
thinking that I told on her.
And- and I heard
them say that.
Like, why would
you do that?
Why would you
do that?
That was a major
double betrayal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, you know,
shame on me
because I gave
the benefit of
the doubt and...
I shoulda known better.
Um, I think-
-Can I- can I-
-[Elaine] Mm-hm.
...just pause
for a second?
How are you feeling
listening to this?
That is... [sighs]
messed up, man.
That's- that's
a world of hurt.
That...
-A world of hurt.
-[Desean] Yeah.
-Yeah, a world of hurt.
-[Desean] Yeah.
[Orna] But to- to bring it
specifically into this dynamic
that the two of you
are here with...
the shadow of
that kind of-
you can find it sketched
into your relationship.
Right? Because you go towards-
with Desean...
you go towards what comes
up for you repeatedly,
what pops up like
a hologram...
is this feeling
of aloneness,
of nobody cares.
Mm.
That's interesting.
It's frustrating
for me, though.
[Orna] Because you're
dealing with history.
-Yeah.
-[Orna] You're not only dealing
-with here and now.
-Yeah.
I mean this kind of loneliness
that you're describing,
I mean, you can't
make it all better.
♪slow emotional
music♪
ren] So 10 months before we met,
-I started hormones.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
And then I had, uh, my top
and bottom surgery...
scheduled, um...
yeah, and on
the books.
And we talked about
that early on...
in our relationship,
like, within
-the first couple weeks.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
And Sarah was just like,
"I'm going with you."
Like...
It was the night I told
you I love you.
-Yeah.
-And I was like,
"I love you," and also,
"I'm going with you."
-[laughs]
-Yeah.
And that's was like...
three or four weeks
after we met.
Yeah.
And it's an- an incredibly
big commitment.
Mm-hm.
I was just, like, fully
in love with this person,
and was just like,
"I'm not gonna let you
go by yourself."
I was gonna go with
my mom, but you were-
Oh, yeah.
But you wanted to go,
and I wanted you to be there.
Well, and it's such
an intimate thing.
Yeah.
Like, nobody needs
their mom
involved with
their genitalia, right?
-[laughs]
-No. [laughs]
I was...
so stressed out
and so scared.
Of?
Here's this woman
that I've been dating
for six months
and she's going into
surgery to, like,
completely alter
her anatomy.
-Yeah.
-Am I gonna, like,
-adjust to-
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
Like, you have one
set of genitalia
and you're not- n-
now you have a new
set of genitalia, like-
-[Orna] Right.
-What does that mean?
Are you gonna still love
her in the same way,
be attracted in
the same way?
-[Sarah] Yeah.
-What's gonna happen
-between the two of you?
-[Sarah] Yeah.
I bet you were nervous
about that too.
-Very much.
-[Orna] Yeah.
-And I-
-Yeah, I had...
no idea what it
would be like.
[Orna]
Yeah.
[Sarah] I was kinda thrust
into the role of caretaker.
That is a really easy
role for me to put on.
It's what I- how I
operated in my family.
Mm-hm.
And I'm worried
about...
that and how it will
translate into, like,
us having a baby.
Wh- where are you on
the baby question?
We're trying
next month.
You're trying
next month?
-[Sarah] Mm-hm.
-[Lauren] Yeah.
Oh!
-[Lauren] Yeah.
-[Sarah] Yeah.
-Wow.
-[Sarah] Yeah.
So we're, like,
actively monitoring
my ovulation
right now
-for this cycle.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-So-
-So, okay.
Bring me up
to speed.
Because the last
time we talked
you were not sure
about the timing.
-[Sarah] Mm-hm.
-[Lauren] Yeah, mm-hm.
You were saying
that...
it's sort of-
it feels fast.
[Lauren]
Mm-hm.
I just- I think I came
to the realization that-
that there is no
perfect time.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
Suddenly,
I started...
like, seeing...
-our child-
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
Our future child...
like, start to
occupy space.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
And that, like, was
over for me.
-Like-
-[Orna] Yeah.
[laughs]
[Lauren] I- I-
I saved some sperm.
Mm-hm.
So we can
actually have
biological children,
potentially,
which is...
like, mind-blowing.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
Is there some
sense of, like...
speed or urgency or
wanting it now?
Or...
Once both of us are
on the same page...
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-Yeah.
we- we get a
little, like...
-Antsy.
-Antsy.
Because there's a- there's
a speed at which you move.
[Lauren]
Mm-hm.
You know, y- w-
in three weeks,
you're already
moving in,
you're already,
you know...
-in- in Arizona-
-Yeah.
[Orna] doing
surgery together.
It's, like, you
move fast.
-Yeah.
-Mm-hm.
[Orna]
Right?
And one could
think-
I mean sometimes
people move so fast...
so they never
have to think.
-[Sarah] Mm-hm.
-[Lauren] Mm-hm.
This is the one thing
I am so sure of.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
That I want in my life...
that I don't- I don't
really have any, like,
-doubts about it.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
Unless there is something
glaring that I don't see.
I don't know.
♪eerie
music♪
[Lauren]
[inaudible]
♪♪♪
♪♪♪
[inaudible]
[laughs]
It's like a- a...
[laughs] Please don't.
[laughs]
It's like a Hawaiian.
[laughs]
Ah, no Babe.
[sighs]
All right.
No.
[laughs]
-Oh.
-[laughs] Of course.
Of course.
Why does that not
surprise me?
[laughs]
Is that what
you want?
[laughter]
You know, in
thinking about
the time we spent
together so far,
I have to say
I'm still...
not clear
on what would
be something
you really wanna
work on.
I think that...
that makes total sense
because we're not
on the same page.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
-So I know what I want.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
What was that?
It's about that
communication piece,
that even though...
you're...
super, super supportive
and the world's best husband,
sometimes you're
also dismissive,
and...
where that leaves me when
you're being dismissive.
What do you want?
I want you to be happy.
No, what do want
out of therapy?
Babe, um...
you have...
such riches
of opportunity...
and you use them...
to criticize the
environment
that provided those
riches for you.
It- like your
statement that...
"Even though you're
amazing,
sometimes you're
dismissive."
How is that a problem?
Like, is the goal to...
never be dismissive...
like, zero percent?
You know, Annie
has been...
threatening in one
way or another
-to leave for a while.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
It's unlikely that
I'm going to
really dramatically
change.
So you know, you just
have to, like, make...
a decision.
But you're
saying that...
the problem resides
in Annie.
If Annie just was
okay with that,
you'd be good.
Well, y- sh- yes.
I think, yes,
sort of, yeah.
That's- that's-
I have to say
that's unusual.
Mm-hm.
If you had to...
tell...
the story of why
you're feeling...
dismissed,
why is that?
I mean of course it's
difficult for everyone, but...
your story.
Like, what- what
is it for you?
Well I...
I- eh- in- in a way
that hopefully
Mau will care about.
I've-
I mean- I've had
my share of...
sexual trauma.
Can you say more?
I grew up in
New York City.
I grew up...you know,
commuting.
I grew up...
relatively independent,
much more independent,
probably,
than kids are allowed
to be now.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
And I felt very
physically...
vulnerable.
And I was reminded
of that...
physical vulnerability,
and...
um...
sexual physical
vulnerability...
all the time...
from fourth grade...
on.
What happened in
fourth grade?
I was...
touched inappropriately,
uh...
multiple times.
I mean we were-
uh, god I feel like
and my girl-
we were flashed...
all the time.
-Just like constant-
-[Annie] Constant.
...sexual intimidation.
-[Annie] Constant.
-Mm-hm.
And then...
in high school, there
was definitely,
um...
multiple incidences
of coercion.
And then I was
date-r*ped.
Yeah, like right
before we met.
So like...
you know, it's not
the most extreme,
but it was constant.
[Orna] Constant
and awful.
Can I- I'm just wanna
check with you Mau.
How do you feel about
what Annie's described
in terms of her...
history of, like,
sexual intimidation
and...
I wasn't there to
protect you.
I guess this is kinda
one line of reasoning
why you would carry
a particular sensitivity
to being...
dismissed or...
stepped over or disregarded.
And you're feeling-
your immediate response
was, "I feel protective."
[Mau]
Mm-hm.
[Orna] How do we
go from that...
to...
when Annie experiences
even, like,
something similar
to that with you,
you lose empathy.
Hm.
To begin with...
the- she's never had
an experience
with me...
that's similar to
those experiences.
-Obviously.
-[Mau] Right.
There- there...
That's not true.
-[Orna] Oh?
-[Mau] It is both true
and untrue.
That's-
okay well you
should say.
He...
in a beautiful way...
wanted me to have
a sexual confidence that
he thought I deserved.
And...
sometimes that
looked in a way...
that I felt like...
was just perpetuating
this, like, objectification
and vul- vulnerability.
Because he didn't want me
just to wear, like,
postage stamp-size
skirts at home,
he wanted me to wear postage
s- stamp-size skirts...
to the grocery store,
or out-
-Farmers' market.
-for dinner.
The farmers'
market, right.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
And my grandmother's
house. I mean...
But are you saying
that you felt
a certain kind
of pressure?
Yes!
-A ton of pressure.
-A ton of pressure.
Throughout our
marriage that I have-
[Orna] That was
supposedly-
-Supposed...
-[Orna] on your behalf?
Supposedly and
supposed to be
on my behalf.
na] But actually your experience
of it was that it's...
Was the opposite.
[Orna] Okay. Di- so...
So that's been
insulting.
It's all internal is...
[Orna] "It" meaning- ?
Meaning it's
all on me.
That's- Baby- [laughs]
that's not what I mean.
I mean you're describing
your feelings.
What ever .
[Mau] Sugar, I'm not
disagreeing with you.
-[Annie] I have a picture!
-Uh-huh.
-You- you-
-Wait, I didn't hear.
-[Annie] I have a picture!
-Uh-huh.
Are you disagreeing?
-Yes.
-[Mau] Of course not [laughs]
-He's not disagreeing.
-[Annie] He's- Yes, he is.
He's saying that it's
all in my head.
That's not what
I'm saying.
[Orna] I-
I'm not sure-
That's not what
I'm saying, Love.
-[Orna] I'm not sure.
-Okay.
What are you saying?
I'm saying there- there's
nothing- eh- right-
I'm listening to you
describe something.
That's what I'm doing.
I mean it's internal in-
in the sense that
the well spring of information
is coming out of you.
It's- there's not an
external basis for me...
to have an opinion.
I'm just listening to you
describe your experience,
that's it.
Okay.
If we...
got way off the topic
of how he feels
when I feel upset...
I think that this
actually brings us
-right back there.
-[Orna] Right back.
-Because if we're talking about-
-[Orna] Listen.
-how you make me feel-
-[Mau] Mm.
and you go, "That's in
your head," or-
-Sugar, that...
-[Annie] "No, you can't feel
that way because I'm
such a good husband."
You know, I think- I-
I would like to start from
a place where we give Mau
a little bit more of the
benefit of the doubt.
[Annie]
Okay.
[Orna] I- I- I'm not sure
I heard it that way,
and I'd like to believe...
I mean I've seen you
react empathically.
Mm-hm.
And I'd like to believe
that you've got that in you.
-So-
-Yeah,
I'm not gonna help
you with that.
I- I don't need to earn
anything there.
Right?
I have it.
If you can't see it,
like, f*ck you.
-[Orna] But-
-And- and I give you-
you're not being
magnanimous.
-Like, there-
-I'm not being magnanimous.
I'm trying to stay
true to the truth.
Describe anything
you want,
but don't ascribe
motivations to me.
that- that's just
unfair to me.
Okay. I won't.
Okay, I don't think
it's in your head.
You didn't make
it up, Babe.
You're telling- you're telling
a story about something...
-I'm listening to you.
-Okay.
That I can say a word...
and you can
take that word
and imagine that I- I've
brewed some evil concoction,
like, f*ck you,
like, stop.
That's the problem.
And you're right this
does exemplify it,
but not in the way
you imagine,
in the way that
I imagine.
You keep telling
the narrative as if
I can't meet you
where you're at.
You're not meeting
me where I'm at.
All the time recognizing
the distance between us
is the distance that
I'm not moving.
You're not- you're-
it's the distance
between us.
If you wanna close
that distance,
start f*cking walking
toward me.
Stop telling me...
you're over there
and I need to just...
like, get it
because you've had
bad experiences.
Okay, me too.
So...
I'm happy to
patiently sit here
and listen to
everything.
-And I'm empathic-
-What- what made you-
I'm empathic...
all the f*cking time.
That's not a problem.
You don't have a problem of lack
of empathy in your husband.
That's not what
you have.
You have-
you feel...
like you're not getting
something.
You're getting it...
and you feel like
you're not getting it.
But I can only
give you it. Right?
If you don't accept it,
th- it isn't
something else.
There's not
something else.
There's not a magic
ingredient missing.
The grass is not
greener.
There-I can't-don't
want tap dancing.
And I bent myself
into a pretzel
to try to figure out
whatever it is
that you need,
and then be called all
sorts of f*ck' names
in the therapist's office
because I protected you.
That's it.
Okay?
-[Annie] Yes.
-All right.
I just wanna
check your-
your...
[sighs]
What angered
you the most is
the misread of you
that Annie had
right now?
It doesn't anger
me the most;
it's just the most
disappointing.
Like, uh, really?
Still?
And if you feel that way,
Babe, I love you,
you should leave.
You should not
live your life...
in this level of
consternation.
And if I'm the cause of it,
you shouldn't be near me.
If there's something
there, uh...
you know, as horrible
as it will be for me,
I r- you can't
live your life...
this disabled.
♪emotional
music♪
[Orna] They told me already
that they have not lasted
more than three sessions
-with any couples therapist.
-[Virginia] Yeah.
[Orna] I can't do all of
the work that I could do
because there's always,
like, the threat of them
jumping ship.
I have to maintain a
connection with him
on his terms.
I mean otherwise,
I lose them as a couple.
Sometimes it feels like...
in a way I have to
sacrifice Annie...
to stay...
tuned in in a very
particular way
to his way of speaking,
because he's so...
so sensitive to any-
any diversion from the
way he sees the world,
he experiences it as
such a-
-an as*ault.
-[Virginia] Right.
I'm not sure if I'm,
like, indulging him.
Could I confront more,
could he tolerate it,
or would that...
blow up the treatment?
Very tight rope I'm
walking on there.
[Virginia] Yeah.
♪funky soul
music♪
♪...From here
baby♪
♪Gonna get a little rougher
before it smooths♪
♪But if you just
hold on♪
♪To me,
baby...♪
[Lauren]
Do what?
[Sarah]
[inaudible]
♪♪♪
♪Just give me
a little faith♪
♪Ain't much to ask
a drop of hope♪
♪Ain't got much
goin' my way♪
♪But I'll make
it someday♪
♪As we travel
along♪
♪Baby
♪
♪We might stumble
we might fall♪
♪But through
it all♪
♪My
lady♪
♪We have our love to
keep us standin' tall♪
♪I know you're
nervous♪
♪I know
you're shy♪
♪But we'll be together
walkin' side-by-side♪
♪Take my
hand, baby♪
♪Give us half a chance and
we'll keep our love alive♪
♪Just give me
a little faith♪
♪Ain't much to ask
a drop of hope♪
♪Ain't got much
goin' my way♪
♪But I'll make
it someday♪
♪♪♪
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