[man humming softly]
Babe, can you
behave yourself?
You don't get to --
you don't get to be
the bad guy.
Baby, someone has
to be the bad guy.
Yeah, not --
not --
Otherwise, people can't
define themselves.
They'll just
be lost.
[whispers]
Okay.
Please , we had
one deal .
I'll do my --
okay.
I will, yes.
You had a deal.
I will try.
♪grooving bass
and drum beat♪
Up until very
recently...
if he were to sort
of tell you...
the story of our...
intimate life...
Mm-hm.
He would say that
we're -- we just --
we're totally
incompatible...
and that
we have --
That you're sexually
incompatible?
Yes, that we're sexually
incompatible,
especially in terms
of appetite.
Mm-hm.
And I --
[Orna] What's the
incompatibility?
Well, like I
never want it
and he always
wants it.
I view...sex
a lot of ways.
I -- I see it
like, uh --
like eating and
like sleeping.
I have to do it
every day.
So, the idea
that, like,
you had sex
yesterday...
is sort of like saying
you ate yesterday.
I appreciate
that,
I'm glad I ate
yesterday...
but today's
today.
But I didn't...approach
her like this,
like, "Hey...
it's...schedule."
Like, there would
be none of that.
Yeah, you did.
Wait, I -- I want
to get to the --
the essence.
-I really didn't.
-Okay.
And I don't even
view it that way.
The way I think
about it is that...
that actually just
makes great sense.
It's what you're
supposed to do.
It's what --
it --
it's what...my body
wants to do,
and I am in agreement
with my body.
Like, we
just -- we...
agree on this
completely.
I don't see how anyone
can disagree with that.
Like, I don't even
understand...
the idea, like...
"I don't want to."
It doesn't even
make sense to me.
-Mm-hm.
-I'm like...
something's clearly
wrong with you.
Look, there's a big
part of me...
that really...
and has for
many years,
told him
to f*ck off
and told him, like,
"This is impo--
Yeah, you're not
asking for anything,
but you're asking for sex
three times a day.
What do you mean, you're
not asking for anything?
You know, you're ask --
I'm a person ...
who has to...
you know, uh --
[laughs]
Whew! Anyway...
if you had
met us
-ten years ago --
-Mm-hm.
I would have said
that I thought
-he had a sex addiction.
-Mm-hm.
And that I thought
his relationship
to sex and sexuality
was disordered.
Mm-hm.
I mean that's
how we ended up
-here and now.
-Mm-hm.
I thought that
was, like...
the beginning and
the end of our...
stuff.
How do you mean?
Like, if --
if...
sex was good,
l-- life was good,
and if sex was bad,
life was bad.
Not coming from me,
coming from him.
You don't want
to be...
okay with
not doing it.
That is a...
not a sign
of health.
That's a sign
of something...
-else.
-Mm-hm.
Um...
and so you wanna --
you wanna -- you wanna --
and I want
to fix that.
And I want to
encourage it, so...
a lot of my
encouragement...
I'm not great at
encouraging, I guess.
You know? It was
interpreted...
in a very
different way.
-But --
-As pressure?
I don't think certainly
as e-- easily as pressure,
but also, it could maybe
even, like, uh...
even more than
pressure,
it could be almost
viewed negatively.
Annie, you often...
misinterpreted...
gestures as...
manipulation?
-As a sexual manipulation?
-Yeah.
-Definitely.
-That's what would happen?
Yes.
Pressure felt like pressure
felt like pressure.
-Mm-hm.
-I couldn't...
see it as
anything else.
When we sort of...
came to blows
a couple years ago...
[Orna] Around
the birthday thing?
-Yeah.
-Mm-hm.
I was just like,
"I don't want to be
f*cking held responsible
for this anymore.
Like I don't wanna...
I -- it's not --
I don't think
it's fair to him...
at all.
And there was
a lot of years
where I defended
myself
and I defended
my...
position and I...
I accused him of all
kinds of behavior...
um...
in a very d--
from a very
defensive...
place.
And I do , now,
really believe
-his intentions.
-Mh-hm.
I don't think --
I think you
wanted to...
love me up...
all the time
and be loved by me,
and I -- and I...
downright couldn't.
Mm-hm.
The other piece
that -- that...
really belongs
here is that...
like, my attraction to
Annie was, like, biblical .
I mean, it was --
it was unreal.
W-- I had had...
a lot of relationships
before you and...
when I saw
her, like...
the world stopped.
Like, everything
stopped and I...
I was like...
"Oh, sh*t."
Like, "Here's..."
like, you know,
it was like
"There's the one.
That's --
that is the one."
And this is gonna
sound terrible.
[Annie] I know.
But it's like,
"I wanna f*ck that
for the rest of my life.
Do you know
what you saw?
Yeah, I mean,
like...
she had...
and still has...
like...
like, this incredible ...
uh, emotional
attachment to life.
Like, just this,
like...
The way she
interacts with...
the world
is -- it --
I don't do it
that way.
I don't -- I don't
see it that way.
And I get to -- I get
to experience it --
-But this capacity --
-Yeah.
-to emotionally attach...
-Oh yeah,
to emotionally
attach,
-but --
-Yeah.
It's almost like she's...
you know, yeah,
she's just plugged in
on a different
wavelength...
that's...
inaccessible to me.
It just --
it seemed beautiful.
And it seemed...
something I didn't
exactly know...
-was possible.
-Mm-hm.
It -- we're very
different.
I feel like I'm forcing
everything...
[Orna] Mm-hm.
and that I'm holding
back the tide waters.
She looked like she was
walking on top of it.
♪disorienting
synths♪
♪♪♪
Ooh, that was
a salsa move.
♪♪♪
[exhales deeply]
[whispering]
Oh...
[stifles laugh]
[Alan] You know...
I'll be very
straight-forward,
I -- I know that
she...doesn't--
she doesn't trust
me fully.
That's true.
I don't fully
trust him.
It was something
that...happened...
along the way
that I felt like...
he gave me reasons
to feel --
Mm-hm.
like, not
secure...
in how he
felt about me.
Like, um...
how seriously
he took...
or valued our
relationship.
Um...
You're hurt.
Yeah, I felt --
I felt very hurt.
[voice cracking]
I felt very hurt.
It kind of messed with
my head, you know?
Like...
'Cause it made me start
lookin' at myself like...
like there was
something wrong with me.
For being upset.
Right.
And deep down inside,
I felt like there was
more going on
than he was really...
-telling me.
-Mm-hm.
First of all, how
are you feeling...
right now?
[softly]
Annoyed.
-I'm a little annoyed.
-Mm-hm.
Yeah.
Th-- there's nothing,
nothing happened.
Like, I never...
cheated on her,
I've never stepped
out on her
when we were
dating.
Like, that's just
not me.
So what --
what...
made Evelyn
suspicious of you?
I think she just
knew that...
the majority of...
laughs] the employees
at my job were female.
-Mm-hm.
-And...
there was a lot
of social --
[Orna] What kind
of company?
It was a fashion
company.
-It was a --
-Fashion.
-Yeah.
-Mm-hm.
You know, in the
course of the night,
I made an immature
decision to, like, hey...
not give you that call
and let you know, like,
-I'm still out because --
-Mm-hm.
my frame of
mind was
"I'm probably
gonna hear it"
and I didn't
want to hear it.
Mm-hm.
I think we've gotten
to the point that it's --
it's happened so often...
that it --
it made us question,
like, "Hey,
what are we doing?"
Because I feel like...
what's a relationship
without trust?
-Uh-huh.
-Yeah.
♪delicate
piano♪
-He disappears.
-Sure.
She doesn't know
where he is,
he doesn't
call back,
he doesn't
return calls,
and he disappears
for...
a few hours and
a whole evening...
and she gets
very upset
and that stokes
her suspicion of him.
That he's with
a woman or...
whomever?
[Orna] Ultimately,
that he's cheating.
That's where I,
personally, feel...
torn because...
I got worried
that I have
too much of
a personal opinion
-about the shady thing --
-Yeah.
and that it's
not fair...
to them as a couple
for me to have this...
-uh --
-Okay.
So did you, um...
you wanna take that up
with yourself, then?
How? [laughs]
So...
is he --
What is it about
the shady thing
that you have
no patience for,
-that it ignites --
-just feel like what --
what, uh, I...
Like, why would people
spend their life together
if they can't be honest
with each other?
It just seems
to me like...
that, personally,
I don't understand
what's the point.
[laughs]
♪soft
piano♪
[Orna] They...
stopped talking...
because they're
too afraid
of what they have
to say to each other
or what they
might hear.
And then the work
is to find a way
to say and hear
the unspeakable.
I think it's just
a bad cycle of just...
having this
mindset, like,
"Uh, if I'm 100
percent honest,
this might backfire
and...
do I say
anything
-at all?
-Yeah.
So you're trying
to control that
by not saying
anything.
-I was, and now --
-Yeah.
I've been exploring
this thing
where I'm just
gonna be upfront
-and see how that goes.
-Right.
-Yeah, yeah.
-Right.
But...
I am still
apprehensive.
I'm not 100 percent
there, but...
-Yeah.
-Yeah.
Like, I haven't quit
cold turkey yet.
[Orna] Right.
[laughs]
[Orna] Right.
Yeah.
I have caught
him in, like,
-little lies like that.
-Mm-hm.
Or...
-being dishonest.
-But I --
but let's talk about
the -- the --
the "dishonesty"
-or the lies.
-Yeah.
You're saying that part
of the reason you lie
is you don't want
to face judgement
and critique and conflict.
Correct.
Let's say you decide
you don't wanna lie
and you --
and you're gonna
be saying something
that Evelyn doesn't
approve of.
You're going to be
hanging out with someone
Evelyn doesn't
trust or --
or hanging out for
seven hours at a bar.
Your wife disapproves
of you
and you're still standing
there being honest.
So what -- what's
your alternative
if you don't want
to lie about it,
if you want to go about
it in another way?
So you want me
to play it out?
-Or...?
-Mm-hm.
Well, for example,
yeah.
What if you
did that now?
Let's see what
happens.
I don't think there's
anything wrong
with the contact
that I have...
with people
that I meet.
It's never something
that you think it is
or fear that it
might be.
And you need
to trust that...
because it's gonna
continue to happen
and I don't want there
to be this pattern of...
just, like, an issue
everytime...
-I meet somebody.
-Wait, wait.
What you're doing
right now is different,
because what you're
doing right now
is you're trying
to manage Evelyn's...
disappointment.
Let her be upset.
-Okay.
-You be true to yourself...
-and let her be.
-Okay.
I don't think there's
anything wrong
with what I'm doing.
And I would hope...
that you would f--
realize that
so we can stop having
disagreements...
about things
like this.
All right, you're
still managing her.
Yeah, I don't know.
[laughs]
Yeah, just stay
with yourself.
Just stay with
yourself.
"I...don't feel like
there's something wrong
with what I'm doing.
I see that
you're upset,
but I don't think
there's anything wrong
with what I'm
doing.
I'm okay...
with having
these contacts."
You respond to that.
Honestly.
[Orna] Honestly.
You don't see
anything wrong
-with the contact?
-[laughs]
No, I'm not --
I'm just, like,
trying to
rethink this.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I guess, initially,
it would come across
maybe, like,
a little selfish.
-Mm-hm.
-You know?
-Mm-hm.
-Like, oh, okay,
he just
wants to --
He wants --
do what he
wants to do.
-Mh-hm.
-Right, and...
um...
maybe...that's
more important...
um --
More important
than...?
Right.
Than...
I guess our
relationship or, um,
my feelings.
Let's hear your
feelings.
I guess, for me,
it feels like maybe
I need to...
do that more.
[Orna] Do what
you want to do.
Right.
But then
I feel like --
then we're --
it's --
we might as well
be living
two different lives
and just...cohabitate.
Well, if you don't
really want
to do anything
together...
if you -- if
the honest truth is
you don't want to do
anything together,
well, then that's
a good question.
But I think...
if this issue of
avoidance and honesty
is, at the moment,
like, the core issue
that you've put
on the table here --
Mm-hm.
the first thing
you need to do is...
be able to bare
the truth.
Right now, you need
to say the truth...
and you need
to see the truth.
♪emotional
acoustic guitar♪
♪♪♪
♪♪♪
[Desean] We don't...
really hang out
with other...people.
We don't have
much of a...
uh...network of friends
that we hang out --
-I don't hang out --
-How is that?
How -- Yeah.
How is it?
It sucks.
Sucks!
Mm-hm.
Do you miss...
having more
friends?
[inhales deeply]
You know, um...
I think...
there is some...
underlying resentment
-that Desean has --
-Mm-hm.
against me about
that dynamic.
For example...?
I'd like to hear
this as well, yeah.
You don't know what
I'm referring to?
[Orna] I don't.
-Tell me.
-Okay.
I'm not much
of a drinker.
When people do that,
they lose all sense--
sensibility
of who they are
and who they're
supposed to be.
Why be around that?
There -- there's
nothing p--
there's no good...
in that relationship
if they're forcing you
to lose who you are.
How is that good?
Can I just, uh --
just to understand, like,
the parameters here,
are we talking about...
the fact that you don't
like Desean going out
and drinking with
his friends?
Or are we talking about an
alcohol problem?
Yes.
[Orna] Both?
Yes.
-Okay.
-Define --
define "alcohol problem."
No, because if someone
hears you say
"I think Desean has a --
a drinking problem" --
I didn't say that.
So when -- when
she says
"I'm worried because,
you know,
he might have
a problem --"
Mm-hm.
the first thing
comes to mind is
"This person drinks all
the time, every day,
can't go without
drinking."
That's not the case.
I don't drink --
like, you consume
more alcohol than I do.
You drink more
wine than I do
on a daily basis.
-What -- what she's --
-Mm-hm.
trying to say
when she says
I have a problem is...
when I do
go out --
-Mm-hm.
-the rare --
the once a year
that I go out...
uh...
the rare times
that I go out --
[Orna] When you
do go out.
Yeah, uh...
maybe, you know,
uh, I'll get a little...
sauced.
I mean, you know --
"Sauced," like black-out
hammered?
Not blacked-out.
Or...?
But, uh, you know,
I'm slurring words --
-Uh-huh.
-And, you know --
So you're getting
drunk.
Yeah, I get drunk
and she doesn't
like that.
I feel,
and believe,
that a person who doesn't
have control of -- of...
or -- or the --or the
wherewithal to know
when they need to stop
and doesn't stop
is a problem.
Got it.
I feel like,
you know,
-if I had --
-Do you know --
do you know what
concerns you
about that?
What's the ultimate
fear for you?
Losing self-control.
Wh-- what's the
fear there?
If you lose
self-control,
you...?
Are not conscious
of what you're doing.
And then?
And then you
can do anything.
Like...?
Uh...
whatever that is.
But what is
the fear?
It could be --
it could be...
cheating,
it could be...
Cheating?
It could be that.
It could be...
just recklessness.
-Just --
-Wh-- what other --
other than
cheating,
what other
recklessness?
So now, because
you're
so used to drinking
that way
that you think
you can drive.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I feel like I'm
saving his life.
Thank you, babe.
I -- I really do.
You feel like
you're saving
-his life?
-Absolutely.
-Absolutely.
-And you feel like...?
No fun.
No fun.
[sighs heavily]
Yeah, no fun.
Mm-hm.
Y-- you strike
me as...
What would be the
good way to describe it?
As, like, very
intentional about
the way you
live life.
-Right?
-Yes.
-Very intentional.
-Yes.
-Yes.
-Right?
That you're kind of
leading your life,
you're driving
your own life,
you're conscious
about your choices.
But...
you know, as a
psychoanalyst,
I always wonder
in those cases,
okay, what's --
what are you afraid of?
What's the other
side of that?
-[laughs]
-Why the need
to drive so hard?
-Because --
-What's the --
the shadow
of that?
Well, just letting
things happen.
But what -- what's
your history
with letting things
happen...
that has taught you...
"I better drive
this life really hard
otherwise..." what?
You know, growing up
in the household
-that I grew up in --
-Mm-hm.
there was not
a lot of...
control.
Tell me.
My mother was very
young when she had me...
and her escape was
probably, you know,
-getting high.
-Mm-hm.
And so now you couple
that with my father
who was there
at the time
who was also
getting high...
[Orna] Mm-hm.
um, who was
young, also.
[Orna] And did they
stay together?
-For a long time.
-Yeah.
But it was a volatile,
violent...
toxic...unhealthy --
think of all of
those adjectives.
[Orna] Right.
-Environment.
-Right.
So kids, they were
still kids,
-they were doing drugs.
-And so --
They're...
-All of that.
-Yeah.
I left my -- my
grandmother's house
-when I was 15.
-15.
I rented a room.
And they were
okay with that?
They didn't have
a choice...
because...
-this is who I am.
-Yeah.
You know, I'm --
I'm not coming back.
And then, I get
myself pregnant...
by a guy
who...was...
-an alcoholic who --
-Mm-hm.
used to wake me up with
a punch in the face.
And again, me
being who I am,
-I'm a fighter, right?
-Mm-hm.
So we're fighting,
right?
And that was
the life.
Right?
Because that's
what you did,
'cause that's what
your mother did,
-right?
-Yeah.
That's just
what happens.
You know, I have
my son.
So that's your son.
Right, I had
my son, and...
a shift happened
when I had what I call
an "out-of-body
experience."
I saw me on the floor
and my son crawling...
and me getting
punched in the face
on the floor.
And that moment --
Wait.
So...
so this is a moment
where your boyfriend...
My son's father,
um...
-uh --
-He comes home drunk?
-He...
-He -- so...
th-- long story
short, I -- I was...
very aggressive toward
him the night before...
and he...
I kind of threatened
him with a bat...
and --
Because you --
Because he used
to wake me up with
a punch in the face
and I didn't want to...
get punched in
the face so I bought --
I went and
I bought a bat.
So I bought
the bat
-from Modell's...
-Mm-hm.
and I drank coffee
so I can wait up for him
and then when
he came,
I opened the door
and I was like,
"Y-- You comin' in?"
And...
he looked at me,
looked at the bat...
a couple of times
and then he turned
around and he left.
I already knew
the next day
that it was gonna be
a situation because...
it -- you know,
he's a macho man...
-Yes.
-at that time.
So you're not gonna
get away with that.
-Right.
-Yeah.
So...
I'm kind of like...
-"I got a bat.
-Mm-hm.
You know, I got a bat
and I'm gonna just,
you know, do my
thing with the bat."
And, uh, he comes with his
brother at the time and...
I get hit.
And so when he hit me,
I fall to the ground
and that's when I saw
me on the floor
and my son at that time
was crawling...
and I saw that
and the only thought
in my head was...
"I don't want my son
to think that this is life."
I don't want my
son to think
that this is
what you do.
Mm-hm.
And I left
that night
with a backpack
and a baby.
I will never be
in a situation
where life
just goes.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I will always
lead that.
This is the
first time...
that I'm not
leading it.
Well, you're having
a hard time
-not leading it. [laughs]
-I am having a
tremendous...
-hard time --
-Yeah.
-with that.
-Yes.
But he -- he views
it different
and I'm like,
"I promise you,
I'm saving
your life.
-Promise."
-You're saving your own life.
Well, that too.
[laughs]
That, too.
That, too.
I mean what's...
...less obvious in
this kind of story
is that you were actually
kind of a kid
and a young person
going through...
all of this...
with not a lot
of protection and...
No.
There's so much chaos
and then violence around.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm --
I'm kind of...
trying to get to
that part of things,
the more vulnerable...
to understand where
the anxiety comes from
that then shows up later
in your relationship
in the form of, like,
she's saving your life...
...when, in fact...
right now your life
is not in danger.
But your life was
in danger.
In -- in a matter
of speaking.
-Like I --
-Mmm...
your life was
in danger.
An-- an-- I --
I didn't --
I never took it
that way.
-I took it --
-But it was.
-I never took it that way.
-Right.
But are you hearing
your own story?
Because you left --
you left your body,
you looked from
up there,
you didn't
really pay...
close enough
attention to the fact
that you were really
struggling for your life.
You know,
I -- I've...
conditioned myself
-to detach.
-Mm-hm.
You know, you went
through it, you lived,
keep it movin'.
-I -- I get that.
-Mm-hm.
That's admirable.
One of the problems
with, like,
managing life
like that...
is that the stuff that
you just detach from,
that you look at
from the ceiling --
Mm-hm.
it continues
to haunt, right?
And it -- and it has
kind of a shadow on now...
that you might
want to at least know
it's there and feel it
a little bit more
so that you can...
separate past...
from present.
Hm.
♪soft
music♪
I mean between
them all, uh,
like my head is
sometimes spinning.
Yeah.
[man] She's gotten
sober.
I've been.
[Orna] You're day in,
day out witnessing...
a struggle.
Bad things happen
to people
and they suffer.
There's a lot
of suffering.
[sighs]
Just knowing that people are
relying on you to...
help them through...
that's a heavy duty.
-[kiss]
-[sniffle]
♪Are you
all good?♪
♪Are you
alright?♪
♪I'm in your
neighborhood♪
♪In your
darkest times♪
♪Are you
all good?♪
♪Are you
alright?♪
♪I'm in your
neighborhood♪
♪In your
darkest times♪
♪Are you
all good?♪
♪Are you
alright?♪
♪I'm in your
neighborhood♪
♪For your
darkest times♪
♪Are you
all good?♪
♪Are you
alright?♪
♪I'm in your
neighborhood♪
♪For your
darkest times♪
♪Are you
all good?♪
♪Are you
alright?♪
♪I'm in your
neighborhood♪
♪For your
darkest times♪
♪Are you
all good?♪
♪Are you
alright?♪
♪I'm in your
neighborhood♪
♪For your
darkest times♪
♪When all
you want♪
♪Is to
disappear♪
♪Searchin'
for wisdom♪
♪But nothing's
clear♪
♪What will
become of me♪
♪If you're
not here?♪
♪I know life is
a mental place♪
♪Where there's
always fear♪
♪Are you
all good?♪
♪Now we're
all alone♪
♪I wanna whisper
you something♪
♪That you
already know♪
♪Are you
all good?♪
♪Tell me how
you're feelin'♪
♪Now we're
all alone♪
♪I wanna whisper
you somethin'♪
♪That you
already know♪
♪Are you
all good♪
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