[shuffling]
It stresses me out when
you get stressed out.
It's not your responsibility.
It's not your job.
I'm just saying.
It ungrounds me, but it's not
fair for me to place all of my
being grounded on you.
That's what-- okay, okay, okay.
[laughs]
instrumental music
[Molly] After last week,
the next day I was in such a
dark place.
Tell, tell, what kind
of thoughts and?
Um...
I mean, that dead
inside comment.
It's more like, like
pulling the veil.
Like, and just being
like, oh yeah, that's...
That all is there.
Mm-hm.
Yeah, I think we-- I think
both of us really had just...
like...
put that away.
Like, we handled that well.
-All right.
-Mm-hm.
I think that's how we've handled
a lot of things I'm realizing.
We stuff it in a box together.
Yes. [chuckles]
And that's like
our dealing with it,
and then it goes up on the
shelf or something like that.
[Orna] So let's hear some more.
Like, let's open some of these.
[Molly] Um, so when
I was in high school,
I had a relationship
with a girl.
Mm-hm.
[Molly] I had
never been in love.
I had not had really any
romantic relationships,
and I would say that
this was my first one.
It was just, like, the whole
world was open and it was just a
magical experience.
Two years ago, one year ago.
Year and a half at this point.
I discovered that she
was living very close to us
in New York City.
So we went out to dinner.
We had not seen or
spoken to each other...
[Orna] Since high school?
-Yes.
-Mm-hm.
[Molly] It's kind of like she
came into my life again when I
was also having,
like, a midlife crisis.
I-- I remember, like,
a year ago, I
started to feel like,
who am I?
Like, what am I more
than just a mother?
A wife?
Like, is this my life?
Is this all there is?
Like, you know, just
those kinds of questions.
And being around her
was just like being 17 again.
Exactly.
So it turned back
into a physical thing.
Um...
What about it made
you feel 17 again?
I felt so alive
around her last year.
Feeling so, like,
young again and free.
And before she emerged,
Molly was saying to me that she
was feeling very trapped...
very confined by...
the parameters of our marriage.
What was going on, both for
you and between the two of you?
[Molly] A yoga student
that I had had an emotional
relationship with, he had come
to New York and I had seen him
and nothing was going on
but what it did was it recreated
this thing where Josh
started to feel very
untrusting and asking me
all the time and...
Asking things like?
[Molly] Are you talking to him?
And that was starting
to make me feel,
like, crazy.
And I was just desperate to
like get out somewhere else and
laugh.
And then here comes this
woman that made me feel alive.
What was going on
for you at the time,
when you were
pre-occupied with that worry?
Um, so the woman was
like a flash in the pan.
It was this very like kind of
quick thing that happened.
Two or three months it lasted.
This other sort of longterm
emotional connection that she
had to this former
student of hers,
it lasted kind of a long time.
And I kept saying please
don't even talk to him.
And you-- you refused.
You refused to do that.
[Orna] Hold on, Molly I'm gonna
ask you not to speak because I
need to be able to understand.
Okay.
Keep going.
Yeah, I mean, I would
say, like, "Please don't."
"Okay, I won't."
And then three months later
this person would
come back up again.
That's a year ago.
I have to trust her.
But I don't know.
I just felt like where she was,
she was feeling so confined,
so, like, trapped.
I just was so
worried that if I...
made some kind of ultimatum or
I held on too tightly,
that she would leave.
She would leave.
So, I thought, "I'm
just gonna ride this out.
I'm gonna be here.
I'm gonna be present.
I'm gonna try to be
as present as I can."
I don't know.
I just wanted to hold on.
But in the meantime,
it just created more...
anger.
Mm-hm.
[Molly] I do think
that a lot of this
would be different if he...
had been able to...
express himself,
whether it's happy or sad
or angry or...
insecure.
I just want him to talk to me.
instrumental music
[Orna VO] Josh is unable
to really be present with her.
I think he feels internally
knotted up about not having
the guts to be more aggressive
about her transgressions.
Right.
[Orna] And I think she wants
a certain kind of presence that I
think is quite foreign to him.
And she just finds
it with someone else
if he's not givng it to her.
[Virginia] Yeah.
[Orna] It's unclear if she's
like punishing him by doing
that, or trying to wake him
up from a state of kind of
disassociation or disconnection.
But she's repeatedly failing.
So what I'm trying to do
is help her contain herself.
Yeah, long enough for...
So she can let him actually
talk about their relationship.
But in his own language...
Be an other. Be a true other.
Yes.
[Virginia VO] I'm reminded of
Cyn and Yaya, and how Yaya is
not owning her own personhood.
[Orna VO] Right, I'm feeling
like I need to get Yaya out of
the seemingly
disassociated state she's in.
Like, she really needs
to come in to the frame.
[Virginia VO] Yeah, and
come out of her shell.
[Orna VO] Mm-hm.
How are you two?
[Yaya] We had like
a moment last week.
Tell me about that.
The way that the conversation
started was more of--
she started off saying,
"Oh, you know, last week,
we ended in like
a good, light tone."
I don't know if it was just me,
maybe because it
was my birthday week,
and I was just like, you know,
it just felt lighter to me.
Like, I know we have stuff that
we still have to work through.
I know she has her own stuff.
I have my own stuff.
We have our stuff as
a unit, and I was like,
I'm not brushing anything off.
I'm just telling you
the atmosphere,
the energy just felt light.
And then that's when
she started saying,
like, "You're just brushing
everything under the rug."
And I'm like, but
did I say that?
But Cyn, that's
your fear or your...
That we're brushing everything
under the rug and we're not
gonna take care of it.
Like, I just, I wanna
just take care of it.
But can you tell me
some more about the fear?
The fear is that
Yaya will neglect or
not pay attention to...
Maybe not pay
attention to my feelings?
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-Or, I...
You know, I was always very...
I questioned our relationship.
And you know that.
From the beginning
I'd be like, ehh...
And I would tell her.
Maybe that's something
we should work on.
But her response is like,
maybe that's one of
your moods again...
So you're not managing
to get enough of a reaction.
I never get a reaction from her.
Like, I try to push her
buttons and it just doesn't work.
But I'm wondering if
these little comments...
Is trying to find her to
get-- get her to react?
Yeah, is trying to
elicit more of a reaction,
or, you know, you, um...
I feel like I'm trying to
sabotage what we've got
sometimes.
I feel like I'm a
self-sabotager.
Maybe you're pissed
off about something.
I mean, I could be.
I just don't know what
it is I'm so mad about.
Let's think about it also just in
terms of ways in which things
happen to you as a child
that were indeed ignored.
Oh, yeah.
Still very angry.
Mm-hm.
[Cyn] I'm angry at my uncle.
I'm angry at my parents.
But there's something about
that that's getting played out
between the two of you.
[Cyn] Us, yeah. I just...
In the sense that
you're, on some level,
experiencing Yaya as
not picking up on something,
not responding.
I'm wondering if you're
mad that Yaya is not--
-Paying attention.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
Probably, yeah.
Yaya, do you-- I mean....
do you recognize in
yourself that there's some way
that you're muting
your response to Cyn?
[Yaya] Yeah, I know
when I get upset,
I just shut down.
But in my mind I'm like angry.
[Orna] So when something hurts
you you go towards shutdown.
Yeah.
But I think that's just the
easiest way for me to cope,
because, like, when you
get mad, you are expl*sive.
You go for the jugular.
And if I know
she's like that, like,
I find things to keep me busy
so I don't kind of don't have to
interact as much, kind of like
letting the b*mb be defused,
and then we can talk.
Mm-hm.
But I think you're not allowing
yourself to get upset enough
for Cyn to feel like she's
actually having an impact.
Yeah, but I...
It's not that I don't
pick up on her cues.
I don't react to her cues, and
it goes back to me not being
able to fully express how
I was feeling as a child,
and express my emotions without
there being repercussions for
doing so.
So I've had how
many years of just
boxing it in here and...
dealing with it internally.
Mm-hm.
But I also know that she
is struggling right now.
Like, she's hurting.
So, yeah, it makes
me upset, but...
You gotta show it.
You're just so composed.
Something about
you not showing it,
even though it's
beautiful and gracious,
it's also not
necessarily the best
to what's happening
between the two of you.
Mm.
[Orna] There's a way that
you're keeping yourself somewhat
removed from what Cyn
is repeatedly saying to you.
Yeah.
instrumental music
[fireworks exploding]
[India] On Saturday we went
to the park and met with some
friends and were
playing couples games.
Yeah.
And, um...
one question we got stumped on.
Or more so, he got stumped on.
The question said,
"How do you know
that your partner
has forgiven you?"
Mm-hm.
[India] And I answered
the question very easily,
just, "Oh, well,
you know, you just
come back around,
you talk to me again.
We laugh again."
He couldn't answer the question.
[Dale] Yeah, I couldn't answer.
That's a really
interesting question.
-Yeah.
-Yeah.
Say something about...
what it--
your thought process.
Yeah, so I initially
thought, okay,
I don't actually know that India
ever forgives me for anything,
because every time
there's a-- there's a fight,
it's the fight plus...
whatever else I'm always,
like, fighting against.
[Orna] Everything
that has accumulated.
Yeah, everything
that has accumulated.
[Orna] Yeah.
There's so much already
stacked against me--
It doesn't even matter
what you're saying now.
[Dale] Yeah, it doesn't matter.
And it makes me feel
very defeated at times.
[Orna] Yeah.
I'm sort of inclined to
ask each of you what was
forgiveness in your
childhood homes?
Like, how did people
get over transgressions?
[India] So in my
childhood, you know,
we did something bad, you
got a punishment or you got a
whooping.
That was the end of it.
Um...
we have dog-out, drag-on fights,
you just say whatever
you want to say,
destroy someone's feelings,
and cook them
breakfast in the morning.
-That's love.
-I see.
But that does leave you with
a lot of anger that you have to
sit with because
nothing was repaired.
-[India] Mm-hm.
-Any thoughts on that?
I mean...
you know, I see that India
handles me this way sometimes.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
But, like, I heard
India say, you know,
"I don't want to be viewed
as the angry black woman,"
but a lot of the emotion
that I get is anger.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
A lot of times.
Well, let's keep
thinking about this,
but I-- I want to ask you...
about your experience
family-wise with, like,
forgiveness?
[Dale] Yeah, so, like, my dad.
I will say my dad
is a great dad.
He would always
give us lectures.
And even after we got punished,
he would explain to us exactly
why.
So there was always a level
of, you know, forgiveness.
[Orna] But was there forgiveness
or was there righteousness?
I mean, explaining why
you're punishing someone is not
necessarily forgiveness.
Maybe it was righteousness
because my dad had a very rough
relationship with
my grandfather.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
He was...
He was basically the
black sheep of the family.
In what way?
[Dale] Well, my
grandfather was a pastor,
a well renowned
pastor, and, um...
my dad was kind of,
you know, set up with these
expectations that he was going
to be like my grandfather.
And he was running
around, smoking weed,
and doing all the things that
a pastor's son shouldn't do.
And your mom?
My mom put up with some
really horrific things from my dad,
and, uh...
[Orna] Horrific?
Like, physical abuse, yeah.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And...
was loyal to him...
and stayed loyal
to him through it all.
And, uh, anything that
seemed confrontational,
she would go the other way.
Maybe that's where
I get it from, but...
[Orna] Maybe
that's where you get
like an extreme
sensitivity to conflict?
[Dale] Yeah.
Yeah.
That it really rattles
you if there's conflict.
Yeah...
I think it really rattles
me too because
I'm afraid that maybe
I can be like my dad.
[Orna] Yeah.
And I don't wanna...
I would never want to
inflict that on anyone.
[Orna] Yeah.
Because I hated the
way he treated my mom.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
So whenever I see--
whenever I see conflict,
I immediately remove myself.
[Orna] Yeah,
makes a lot of sense.
instrumental music
[Orna VO] To help a couple,
I've found that the most basic
ingredient is some capacity
to care for each other.
That if the other person
is suffering, it will matter
because sometimes all
they want to do is score the
next point and win, win, win.
[woman] Sometimes he thinks
I have an attitude towards him...
I think he has an
attitude towards me.
And it's just...
constantly....
that's where we clash.
Wait, did you blame me for that?
-I wasn't even there.
-No!
No, I-- I didn't
blame you for that.
I'm a human being,
I make mistakes...
but I will not
apologize forever.
He took it so personally,
and he was just like, "Ugh!
Why do you need to
come at me like that?"
"f*ck you!"
f*ck you for saying that.
My response to him
after that was like,
I feel like no matter what I do,
[fading out] how
much I give, how...
-[Orna VO] With Ping and Will...
-[Virginia VO] Yes.
[Orna VO] I mean, there's
something of a classic dynamic,
which is like the more she
aggresses and goes after him,
the more he retreats.
[Virginia VO] Yeah.
[Orna VO] And the
more he retreats,
the more she feels like
she needs to go find him.
[Virginia VO] Yes.
[Orna] For me, that's
where it gets complicated.
Yeah.
[Orna] Because
there's a really strong
sadomasochistic...
[Virginia] Wow.
...dynamic going on.
So she gets like really mad
and really big and controlling
in her voice.
[Virginia VO] Yes.
[Orna] And he kind of
gets small and withdrawn,
and she gets mean, and then
his way of responding is by
even further kind
of withdrawing his...
sexual attraction from her.
[Virginia] Uh-huh.
[Orna] Anyway but in terms
of that dynamic between them,
I'm finding that
my regular toolbox
is not totally relevant.
Uh huh.
[Orna VO] So I have to listen
in as to when the timing is right
to address it.
Will, how are you
doing right now?
[mumbling] I don't know...
I feel hopeless.
[Orna] Hopeless.
[Will] We've been to
so many therapists,
and it's just going through
the same thing again and again.
And I don't think any
progress is being made.
You know, I try to look
at myself and I try to
change things and...
I try to do things
differently...
but our sex life is absent.
Our communication
is pretty much nil.
I don't feel like I can tell
her anything or say anything,
but I think it has to do
with the fight we had
just a few days ago.
You know, I just asked her if...
you know, if she was
okay if I went to play golf
with my friend...
and somehow that turned into,
"I always choose
other people over her."
It's just, like, a moment
of realization for me.
-[Orna] Of?
-It's like...
all I did was ask
to go play golf,
and in your mind,
I'm choosing
everything over you.
Like, how do you...
reason with that?
How do you have any kind of
logical conversation about that?
That's just golf.
There's so many deeper
issues I want to talk about
that I can't.
Where are you?
[Ping] I'm listening
to him and...
She's thinking I'm a
crybaby is what she's thinking.
I'm trying not to come
up with a snide remark.
[Orna] But you have
an impulse to do that?
Yeah.
I do in the sense
that, you know,
in response to what he's saying,
how do I work with someone who's
always a victim?
Okay, can I tell my
part of that story?
[Will] How would you
respond if all the times,
you know, went off about how
you feel about me leaving to Korea,
if I was just like, "Oh,
stop playing the victim."
Like, how the f*ck
would that make you feel?
I feel like there's a lot of
he said/she said, right?
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And there's a lot, "Okay,
well, this is his perception.
This is his, um, view
of what happened."
And then I have my
view of what happened.
But what's missing is the...
Some kind of theory that will
help you understand what's the
dynamic.
[Ping] Exactly, yeah.
So one of the things we've
talked about is you're already
deeply stuck in the groove
where you'll start with an as*ault.
Right.
Now, we know already that
underneath the as*ault, you're--
there's all sorts
of feelings of hurt,
-of vulnerability, betrayal--
-[Ping] Yeah, correct.
That it's hard
for you to sit with,
so you launch an as*ault.
[Ping] Yeah.
And your response to that is to
enter some state of helplessness
and trying to comply,
trying to appease,
but really you're retreating.
You're just trying
to minimize damage.
Mm-hm.
Which leaves you
further abandoned,
and what do you know how to
do when you feel abandoned?
Attack.
[Ping] And fight, yeah.
And what happens
when you attack?
You feel helpless...
retreat.
So that's your
dance at the moment.
And you're exhausted by it.
[sighs] I've been exhausted.
But something's
keeping you together.
[Ping] I don't know what.
This is what I keep digging for.
This is what I
keep thinking about.
So, we can do
all sorts of things.
You can tell me
that you're tired of it,
you want to break up.
Hm.
We can try to understand how
each of you got so deep
into this particular position.
I'd want to hear something
about your family histories.
I feel like, you know,
everyone always wants to talk
about my family.
I don't have the best
relationship with them,
granted, but I felt like
that is something I've
dealt with earlier on,
like, in my early 20s.
[Orna] Right, but
just so you know,
I'm not imagining doing
reparative work on your
relationship with your family.
Right.
What I'm imagining is that
maybe each of you can understand
a little bit why you're so
stuck in a particular position.
I mean, you're too good
at this role for it not to be
well-rehearsed.
Is that of interest to you?
instrumental music
Okay, so where do we start?
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