02x06 - Episode 6

[bunniefuu]

ambient music

Good one.

[Michal] This is his parents'
house, so they live with us.

We decided to move in
and purchase this house.

It was a good idea for us
because we were both working

full-time and neither
of us was ever home.

[Orna] How does it play
out between all of you?

It upsets me a lot because I
feel like-- like we need to have

our own space and
we need to leave.

Like, I feel like a part
of this was a mistake.

You mean living with them?

Yeah, they're
living with us, but...

[Orna] Would you say that this
conflict between the two of you

has worsened living with them?

[Michal] I think so.

[Orna] Because when you move in
close proximity to your parents,

it's hard not to get
sucked into childhood dynamics.

theme music

[Orna] Why does
he sink into this--

what he calls this "lull?"

This passivity?

To me, it's always a sign
of some kind of breakdown.

Something got broken.

Some kind of connection
with the world got broken.

And when someone like Michael
is repeatedly saying that he's

not getting any enjoyment
or pleasure out of doing basic

things that will make
him feel competent,

I've got to figure out
where that's coming from.

It sounds like it is a
profound defensive thing--

-[Orna] Yes.
-That we need to unpack.

I don't know how people
are supposed to solve these.

They're really hard.

-Yes.
-It's mucho difficulty.

[Orna] How are we doing?

You know, why don't
you talk for once?

I feel like I tend to
dominate the conversation,

so it's your turn.

All right, I think
we are doing fine.

-[chuckles]
-[Michal] We're doing better.

One of the things that I
noticed I'm not doing anymore,

like straight off the bat, I'm
not allowing myself to become

resentful.

I was concerned
about-- by the way,

I totally realize
that this is ridiculous.

I'm already dominating
the conversation again.

Can I just ask?

What would happen if you
started and you said "We're

fine," and Michal
didn't take over?

-What do you mean?
-[Orna] What if there was quiet?

Where would you go?

I don't know.

I didn't have that much
more to say than that.

I was gonna see what
everyone else said.

Why?

Um...

Well, I think primarily
I am more reactive than,

like, taking the initiative.

I have so much to say but
I'm trying not. [both laugh]

Good.

-Good.
-[Michal] Bursting.

Bursting.

Overflow! [laughs]

So when Michal
compensates by overflowing--

Mm-hm.

How is that working for you?

I think for the
most part I lean on it.

-[Orna] Right.
-Like, with other people.

Meaning that if I do nothing,
she is going to step up and take

charge.

And that's sort of
the crux of the issue.

I'm just sort of sitting back
because she's domineering and

demanding that it be done
exactly this certain way.

I guess it depends on where
you think the action starts.

You're saying it starts
with her being domineering.

But what if it starts
with you just saying,

"Fine."

[Michael] Right.

Within me, it comes
from more of just like...

sort of receding.

Not going out and
putting myself out.

When or why do
you slip in there?

What's the trigger that
pushes you into that lull?

I think a lot of it has
to do with my schooling.

[Orna] Who were you in school?

What was school like for you?

In elementary school, I
think I got diagnosed with ADD

at that point and
was taking meds a lot.

I was very often told
that I spoke out in class.

And then, like, I was sort
of famous in high school for

arguing my grade.

[laughs]

That's so you.

It became like a bit of a show.

And the fun bit about it was
that I would get the points.

Mm-hm.

And I specifically remember one
time that I just didn't want to

anymore.

Like, I just didn't
want to argue it anymore.

And it always struck me as
some kind of turning point but I

never really got much to it.

So...

you're describing a long school
history of some kind of misfit

between the way your mind works
and the kind of schooling you

-were put in.
-Mm-hm.

And at some point, you gave up.

I hear-- like, that's a
sound way of putting it.

That's how you're
going to say it.

So maybe that could be a useful
metaphor for us to think about

-this "lull."
-[Michael] Right.

That you just gave
up arguing the point.

Yeah, and, I mean, like, I
never really considered how much

I disliked school.

But I feel like maybe they
sapped me of all my joy in life.

-[laughs]
-[Michael] Like...

That's not funny.

But, like, what can
I do about it, also?

Like, it already happened.

Like, at this point,
all I can do is live.

No, but at this point, you can
look at how you've generalized

from that realm into
other areas of your life.

Right, and see
that's it's wrong.

And see that you're losing
out on the possibility of

engaging more in the world
and for it to be rewarding,

that your relationship with
whatever you're doing could

actually bring
some satisfaction.

-Because I'm doing it for me.
-[Orna] Yeah.

And you're finding
your own way into it.

Right.

So okay, where are
your thoughts now?

I think that there's
still this inherent tendency

because of whether
it be his schooling,

or whether it be his parenting,
or a mixture of the two,

that he has this inherent
tendency to just fall back

into laziness, fall back into
thinking about his childhood,

rather than taking action.

For example with
this dentist thing,

we started talking
about it a month ago.

If he had just made an
appointment and gone that week,

then that would've
been much better.

But instead, he asked me to
help him with it, even though

-it was not--
-That's not what happened.

Necessary for me to do that.

That's not what happened.

You wanted me to go to the
particular dentist that I hated

and I didn't want to go there.

So I said, "I'm going
to go some place new.

I'm just going to find someone."

And you said, "No,
that'll be too expensive."

Oh, okay, fine.

"No, that'll
be too expensive."

[Michael] "That'll
be too expensive.

Go find one on Groupon."

And I said, "I hate the Groupon
app, I don't want to use it."

And she said,
"Fine, so I'll do it."

But what are you saying?

Why should I have to do
that, though, to begin with?

Why can't you just do the
thing that saves the money?

-Michal...
-Because you have a good point--

-Hold on.
-I didn't think about Groupon.

I wasn't looking
in particular, but--

[Michal] No, you did!

Because you said, "I don't like
the app, I don't want to bother

to download it."

You object to these things that
you say to yourself are, like--

-Michal...
-You say are too hard to do

when they're stupid things
that will save you thousands of

-dollars.
-[Orna] Michal, look at me.

-What?
-Stop.

Is this method working?

Is that gonna get you there?

-No.
-[Orna] No.

I'm assuming the only
thing it's doing is making you

shut down.

-Yeah, if anything.
-Well, then--

Can I just say, I'm
taking, like, a beating here?

You keep saying, like, I'm
terrible over and over and over

-again.
-I don't think you're terrible!

And I'm, like,
just sitting here!

-I'm glad you said that.
-[Michael] [laughs]

You shouldn't sit
and take a beating.

But why is it my job?

-Why can't he be an adult?
-It doesn't matter.

Listen.

Why is it my job to have
a method to convince him?

-[Orna] Listen, you need--
-No, no, no!

-Why do--
-Michal, let me work with you!

[Michal] See, this is
something that bothers me!

Why do I need to have a method
to teach this person how to

adult?

-Learn adulting, you're an
adult!
-You're doing the same with me.

-Look at me, Michal!
-What?

[Orna] You're doing the
same thing with me right now.

You're talking at me.

So let's figure out a way to
get the two of you out of this.

Right?

That's why you came here.

Both of you need to ask
yourselves what is your role in

the situation and how did it
happen that you got into this

role?

ambient music

[Matthew] Have you
ever heard of TimeHop?

The app that links to
Facebook, Instagram,

all the social media.

[Orna] What does it do?

[Matthew] It reminds you of
things that happened on that

-date...
-In the past years.

In the past years.

-So every day, you get, like--
-[Matthew] A reminder.

-Flooded with reminders?
-[Gianni] A flashback.

It's kind of backfired in my
sense because it has some very

telling times of when
I was hardcore using.

Mm-hm.

There's, you know, pictures or
footage that he decided to take

during those times because it
was a very challenging time for

him and he wanted proof of it.

That he will show you?

Sometimes I would tell him what
happened and he would have no

idea so that's why
I started doing that.

[Orna] Right.

So unfortunately,
it's coming back up,

so like we
watched a video today--

Well, a video came up today.

[Orna] What came up?

It was us fighting
and...like, bad fighting.

Literally destroying
things in the apartment.

I made him watch it.

[sighs]

I have to say,
part of me feels like,

I mean, maybe I
should see that video.

So I can join you-- kind of I
can time travel with you two.

I don't know, you
should think about it.

Maybe I should see it.

So this app, this miraculous app
pulled up this video and I had

the impulse to
watch it with them.

Like, I wanted to sort of go
back in time and be there with

them and help them through that.

[Virginia] Yeah.

[Orna] And then I was like...

I wasn't sure.

Is this a wise thing to do?

It's like a savior fantasy.

It's sort of the way I felt
when Matthew was describing his

childhood.

We started counseling,
which was essentially conversion

therapy, telling me that
I was gonna go to Hell.

[Orna] I just felt the
ruin, the devastation.

I kind of wished I could go
back and sort of fix it for him.

[Virginia] Oh, my goodness.

You know, when we start
doing that with cases,

then we're the
babysitter for life.

[Orna] Yeah.

[Virginia] Matthew is getting
a lot of treatment for his

alcoholism and for
this violent history.

-But Gianni is not.
-[Orna] Yeah.

So it really seems to me
that Gianni is in a live PTSD

situation.

If he tries to stay
only in the present,

it will come back to get him.

You don't need the app.

It's gonna come grab him.

[Orna] Yeah.

-Hi.
-Hello.
-Hi, Orna.

Obviously, some of the reason I
don't recall stuff is because I

-was intoxicated.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.

But I do think a
big piece of that is,

you know, somehow my
mind just lets it go.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

Probably that's why I
keeping bring up things.

[Orna] Of course.

'Cause there's never
been a closure of things.

I'm imagining that there's
something you want him to

understand.

[Gianni] Just the way
I felt in that time.

Say it, that you felt--

The constant fear of
something happening to him.

Anything in particular
you want Matthew to imagine?

Probably that day
you lost your job and...

and that's the day
when it all went down.

'Cause I wasn't home and he had
lost his job and he had called

me screaming.

And I was afraid he was going
to do something to himself.

I was like, I'm 45 minutes
away, what if something happens?

And I didn't know what to do so
I called 911 and said that he

was-- he was going to do
something if he didn't have any

-help.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.

And...

I came home to 12 police cars
outside our building and him

screaming like a
crazy person and...

when I walked
into the apartment,

it felt like
there had been a w*r.

Yeah.

[Gianni] The
dogs were terrified.

The door was broken.

The A/C was on the floor.

[heavy breathing]

And we still live there so
it's kind of hard to let it go

because the cut on the door
is still there and we see it

every day.

It's a lot.

[Orna] This was very
traumatizing for both of you.

Wow.

That's why I can't just let
it go 'cause, like, it's stuck

in my head.

It was...

the worst thing I'd ever seen.

I'd never seen someone--
and being powerless

'cause I had no idea what to do.

I was scared to leave him alone.

But at the same time, I
didn't want to be there.

Mm-hm.

I felt the easiest way out
for me was just leaving.

[Orna] Where are you, Matthew?

Um...

I mean, if I could've
left the situation too,

I guess I would've.

[Orna] Right, but
you were trapped.

Mm-hm.

So I mean, I can't
blame him for that.

But what I'm hearing is that
each of you are so traumatized

by what you've been through
that it feels impossible to then

reach out and understand
what the other person was going

through.

Yeah, I mean, it's hard
to feel my own feelings,

much less grasp how he feels.

[Orna] How would you
grasp how it felt to Gianni?

But maybe it
would help, actually.

Do you-- do you have space in
there to kind of imagine what it

was like for Gianni?

I mean...

I know how bad it was for me, so
I can only imagine what it was

like for him.

Can you say it?

You couldn't
escape the situation,

and you said you wanted to leave
and I guess that's what I would

want to do.

But I'm...

I mean, it shows how
strong you are to not.

And I know that he obviously
cares a lot about me in order to

go through that.

Yeah.

[sniffles]

mellow music

[Orna] So how are you two?

-[Tashira] We're okay.
-[Dru] Yeah.

I mean, I'm a little
stressed, but we're okay.

What's up?

[Tashira] Oh, there's
stuff going on with my sister.

She's, uh, going
through some things.

She tried to take her life.

-What?
-[Tashira] Yeah.

A couple days ago, so...

[Orna] That's...

A lot. [laughs]

-[Orna] That's a lot.
-Yeah, yeah, it's a lot.

-[Orna] Yeah.
-It's a lot.

Well, tell me about her.

[Tashira] I have a
feeling that it's...

The situation with my
dad being who he is,

I mean, they have
gotten into it physically,

my sister and my dad.

They have gotten into it or
he was physically a*usive?

He wasn't physically a*usive.

My father has
never hit any of us.

Uh-huh.

He throws things.

He breaks things.

So I think that my sister--
you know, before all this

happened, she...

was saying she hated
being in the house and--

[Orna] Being in...

Being in my dad's house,
because she was living with my

dad.

Like, when it happened,
you know, I was kind of numb.

You were numb when...

[Tashira] When I got the
phonecall about my sister.

Mm-hm.

Who called you?

[Tashira] Uh, my stepmom.

-Mm-hm.
-[Tashira] My stepmom, yeah.

And that hurt too
because now I'm a mom--

[Orna] Mm-hm.

So to feel her pain, that it's
not only my sister but it's her

daughter, was hard.

So...

sometimes, like, he always tries
to solve the problem for me.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

And sometimes I
don't want it solved.

[Orna] Right.

So sometimes I just...

I need him to
listen and just hear me.

[Orna] Yeah.

-Do you want to chime in?
-[Tashira] [laughs]

I mean, I don't know.

I just feel weird
talking about it because,

you know, I'm the outsider and
I've never personally witnessed

any type of
aggression from her dad.

[Orna] I see.

-To me, he's the coolest dude.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.

Um...

you know, we see them
a lot, and you know,

if I would've never
heard those stories,

I would never know anything,
that he has any type of

-aggression.
-Yeah.

Like, I try to explain it
to him as when it happens,

my dad's eyes,
like, go dark.

-[Orna] Yeah.
-It's like a complete switch.

[Orna] Yup.

What would trigger that switch?

[Tashira] Back
then, I mean, anything.

-I remember a time--
-Like what?

I think my mom
hadn't done the laundry.

And he just started hitting her.

And my aunt-- we didn't
have a phone at the time,

so my aunt was running to the
neighbors to call the police,

and my dad threw my bike
at my aunt and missed.

You know, I mean, I was
terrified when I was younger.

And, like, loved him and
that was really weird.

[Orna] Very confusing.

Very confusing to be terrified
of your dad, for not wanting

your parents to be together and
still loving my dad and still

wanting to see my dad
and be around him.

Mm-hm.

[Tashira] And it's like I can't
bring something like that up.

I mean, what am I
gonna do, be like,

"Dad, why did you
hit my mom back then?

You know, like, it
still affects me?"

He's gonna tell me
"Well, it shouldn't affect you,

me and your mom are okay.

You know, I made mistakes.

And now you're 35 years old
and you have your own family.

You shouldn't be
worried about that."

But that's what I'm saying when
it comes to my sisters, that I

don't think he realizes
the pain that he causes.

Like, for him, it's not
something that's-- not that

deep.

And sometimes I feel
like he feels that way.

I see, so you're seeing--
I mean, your father has some

kind of obliviousness not
understanding what he's done?

[Tashira] Right.

And you see that replayed in
Dru's difficulty understanding?

[Tashira] Sometimes I feel like
for him, it's not really that

big of a deal.

Um...

The conversation makes him
uncomfortable sometimes

that he doesn't, I guess,
give me what I need or just be a

listening ear or...

You know, he said
to me, "You know,

I grew up in an a*usive home
too because my parents hit me."

Well, I didn't say I
grew up in an a*usive home.

-Well, not like that, but like--
-I would never say that

'cause I don't think
I was ever abused.

Was I hit?

Of course.

I used to fight with
my brothers physically.

Or we was hit physically from
our parents whenever we did bad.

-So--
-But you're saying it's

-different.
-[Tashira] It's different.

It's not the same thing so he
can't possibly understand what

it is when...

[Orna] When you witness that.

When you witness that.

[Orna] Part of what we're
talking about is violence.

And everything that
violence kicks up.

-Which is a lot.
-Mm-hm.

As a child, when
you're witnessing,

let's say, your
father beat your mother,

there's a certain kind of break
in the continuity of childhood.

You suddenly have to deal with
something that is both literally

terrifying but also, it's like
all sorts of questions that

interrupt childhood.

And you're saying some of these
questions still linger with you.

[Tashira] Yeah.

It's like, but why did I
have to go through all of that?

[Orna] Yeah.

[Tashira] You know,
and like, why my mom?

And now, like, I see my mom
now and I realized how much it

really affected
her in the long run.

She can love, but she
still holds back a little bit.

Mm-hm.

-[Tashira] And she's very much--
-She's traumatized.

Yeah, she's very much
independent and "I got my own

things, and I don't need a man,
and I raised my kids by myself,

and..."

[laughs]

What?

I'm just saying, you know, the
apple's definitely not far from

-the tree.
-Well, I mean, but that's...

you know, and that's--

[Orna] But you want Dru to
understand where it's coming

-from.
-Yeah.

ambient music

[Orna] He took it to heart, but
you know what he did after that

session?

[Virginia] No, what?

The following week, I found
out that he had called the

father a few times just
to chummy up with him.

And he had no idea
that that was an undoing?

He just thought it
was, like, a thing?

He said, "I felt uncomfortable
and I wanted to feel better."

-Perfect.
-[laughs]

He doesn't want to
lose this patriarch.

He doesn't want to
lose the patriarch.

Mm, mm

Mm, mm, ooh-ooh

Oh

Oh, you know I'm comin'

Oh, oh

Oh, I'm comin' home

Yes, I am

Yes, I-- yes, I--

Yes, I am