02x04 - Episode 4

[bunniefuu]

tense music

[Michal] The first few days
after our last conversation,

I was very, very angry and I
didn't really want to talk to

him at all.

So for a couple of days, I just
distanced myself from him as

much as possible,
whether physically,

verbally...

-[Michael] Like halfway--
-Can I ask-- Michael, hold on.

How do you feel when
you're kept out like that?

When you're stonewalled?

Uh... [sighs]

A mixture of
frustrated, scared...

And the fear is
the fear of anger?

No, fear of divorce.

theme music

[video game sounds]

[inaudible chatter]

Honestly, I was again
sort of in a place where I'd

been a few times over the course
of our marriage where I thought,

"All right, I guess
there's nothing more I can do.

Like, it's out of my hands."

So I tried to, uh, bully
her into doing the homework.

[Orna] Michal, did you really
take two hours a day and...?

So a slight variation.

I took more than
two hours a day.

Michael thinks I took a little
bit too much time to relax.

-Excellent.
-[Michal] He cleaned up.

And I-- he's been watching the
kids and I've just kind of been

relaxing. [laughs]

[Orna] Wonderful.

[inaudible chatter]

Her homework was to
take two hours a day of doing

absolutely nothing.

Two hours a day
every day or some days?

Every day.

Oh my goodness.

He just immediately filled
in the spaces and did a lot,

took it upon himself
to, like, clean the house,

take care of the
kids, and did work.

And then they got into another
one of those horrible fights.

Yeah.

But then, the next
session, they came back and

Michael took it upon himself to
try to draw the cycle between

them.

Here's what he created.

I thought it was
really interesting.

There's no way she's
gonna be able to read that.

-Can you see this?
-[Orna] Yes, I can.

Hold it steady.





Which we should talk about
because I think there's a lot

there.

upbeat music

For him, it starts with
her being driven and needing

something to happen.

[Virginia] Yeah.

[Orna] And then, he goes into
what he calls a "lull period"

when he loses motivation
and he just kind of rests.

And then she gets increasingly
anxious and out of her mind and

he slides back into
what they call "laziness."

[Virginia] Mm-hm.

[Orna] And then there's, like,
a breakdown between them and

silent resentment.

[Virginia] Yeah.

[Orna] And then
there's an expl*si*n,

some kind of horrible fight.

Sometimes, it's, like,
really talk about divorce.

I feel like your existence
is worthless right now.

It's absolutely worthless.

[Orna] And then they
make their comeback.

They start talking
and unpacking it.

[Virginia] Yeah, yeah.

In this diagram, he was
looking at all these ways that

they could cut this cycle.

So how do we prevent falling
into this zone is my question?

Because we sat down and we were
workshopping together what we

should do, you were so anti-me.

You were fighting me so hard
and not doing the things that we

discussed because you just
wanted to revert back to,

"Oh no, I want to do the lazy."

You should be able to get past
whatever it is that's holding

you back and actually
be successful in life

and not fall back
to this, again,

excuses, excuses, excuses.

But you know, um, Michal, I
understand what you're saying.

You can imagine that, first
of all, as a psychoanalyst,

I have a slightly
different take on things.

I think that when you really
understand deeply what happened

to you and what
dynamics shaped you,

it's the actual only way that
you can have any sense of choice

on the matter.

When someone
enters a state of lull,

there's a disconnect.

What is this disconnect?

Because this "lull," it's...

it didn't start now.

upbeat funky music

[Tashira] We've been
trying to get healthy together.

We started working out
this week and eating better.

We actually started sleeping in
the same room about a week and a

-half--
-[Orna] Wow.

Two weeks ago.

What made you decide to
allow Dru into your space?

I think the both of us kind of
have to show up for the other

person if we're
gonna make this work.

Yeah.

She was the one
who actually brought up,

um, "Let's go have
sexual intercourse.

-Let's go have sex."
-Mm-hm.

And she's never done that
unless we've had, like, drinks

in us and stuff
like that, but...

[Orna] And how
did you each feel?

Well, I felt great.
But I'll be honest

But in the back of
my head I'm thinking,

"This is too good to be true.

This is not gonna last forever."

When it comes to
the physical contact,

the sexual
intercourse, the affection,

all those things, she can
get it whenever she wants.

And I can't.

She controls it all.

ambient music

[Orna] Tashira had to come
clean with herself about whether

she's in it or not.

Whether she wants to
make it work or not.

Which was interesting because
then we started to see some of

Dru's anxiety about intimacy.

Yeah.

[Orna] So much of the turmoil
around sex has to do with the

-initiation of it.
-[Virginia] Yeah.

Who's initiating?

What does it have to
do with vulnerability?

With asking?

Is it me?

Am I not attractive
enough or...?

I don't wanna be
like, "Can we do it?"

You know, like, ask him
like it's a favor, you know?

Like, I'm 26 now.

Sex should be...

I shouldn't need to
ask for it. [laughs]

[Orna] During this quarantine
time, it's like your nose is

rubbed against
this all day long.

Covid and kids
equals daydrinking.

[Matthew] We have been
quarantined for eight weeks and

we're officially
both unemployed now.

It honestly stresses me out and
I don't even know how to handle

that.

How's that for you, Gianni?

I don't know when I'm gonna see
my family and I don't know when

I'm gonna be performing again.

I don't know when I'm
gonna be working again.

At least he qualifies for
the benefits from the state.

I don't qualify for anything.

I literally have zero dollars
coming to my account until

-who-knows-when.
-Yeah.

After we spoke the last time,
he hasn't been keeping alcohol

-in the house that much.
-Great.

But now we're having
some issues with each other and

being on each others' case
and just kind of picking at one

another and, you know, we
got in an argument.

Because now we are so
much together, you know?

Like, all day, every day.

Every little thing seems like
the end of the world. [chuckles]

Of course.

I mean, I ended up sleeping on
the couch that night because I

was upset about it, and
then the next day, we were like,

"What are we doing?"

I will say, through that
one argument where he slept

out here by himself, it
took me to dark places.

You know, I've been in a
relationship before where I have

created arguments
so that I can use.

Aha.

And I don't feel like
that was one of them--

-Yeah.
-But I did have a moment of

wanting to use.

[Orna] When Gianni went away?

Right.

I immediately felt alone.

Yeah.

He is...

He was the number one
reason I got sober.

And it's extremely terrifying
now to me that he's the only

reason that I'm sober.

Because I feel like it's
still the only reason.

At this point, I need to really
start working on having some

more solid foundation to my
sobriety, more so than him.

Yeah.

To have your own
investment in your own life.

[Matthew] Right.

[Orna] How are you
feeling hearing that, Gianni?

I didn't know because he
never tells me those things,

so...

I mean, he had told me one day,
"Thank God you're here because

if you weren't here, I would be
drinking to make this go through

faster."

Mm-hm.

It's like how-- we
always want time off, right?

And now we have
all this time off.

The time!

And it's like the
worst thing in the world.

[laughter]

This is crazy.

chill music

[Orna] Since we're
constantly in the same space,

temporality is
kind of evaporated.

Like, everything is
just one long day.

There's a certain level
of porousness or lack of

definition.

Like everything
bleeds into everything.

I don't know what week
is it, what year is it?

[Virginia] I know, what
day of the week is it?

-What am I doing?
-[Orna] Yeah.

With these treatments,
it feels very different.

The whole treatment
feels very different.

Time feels different.

I can't believe it's
been a month already.

[laughter]

[Orna] There's something about
working in person that I miss.

Being like bodies in
the room, in a real room,

come on, there's just
no alternative for being

full-bodied in the room.

Yeah.

[Orna] I mean, most of the
time, I've longed for my office.

[Dru] It was
Mother's Day. [chuckles]

So I had gotten her
a gift and I wanted to surprise

her.

And I know she always
wanted a boymom t-shirt.

So I actually bought the shirt,
and she was like-- I said,

"Do you like it?"

And she was like, "No."

She was like, "I don't like
v-necks and it's not a good

material."

-And that got me so upset.
-Mm-hm.

[Dru] So I was just
like, "You know what?

Throw this sh*t out.

And that's it."

My issue with the shirt is just
the way that it was gonna look

on me.

The way that I'm feeling
about my body right now.

It had nothing to do with--

So why didn't you say that?

Oh my God, the baby again.

Yeah, the baby again.

I had said I didn't like
the material because it's

embarrassing.

Like, I didn't wanna be like,
"I don't like the shirt because

it's gonna make me look fat."

Oh, so rather just
hurt my feelings.

[Tashira] No, I wasn't--

Well, Tashira, but there
is-- there is a way-- I think

there's something about...

That you sometimes don't really
go all the way to consider the

impact of what you say.

I agree with that.

That you are kind of
reckless in the way you speak.

I know.

No, I totally agree with that.

And I realized that when he
came back into the room and,

you know, he started off with,
"This is really hard for me,

you know, but I'm gonna say it.

You know, that
really hurt my feelings."

And he was, like,
huffing and puffing through it.

I don't know.

Maybe I'm harsh because I
try to push people away.

Like, I just, um...

You know, I really
don't have an excuse for it.

I don't have--

You don't need
an excuse for it,

but it's something
you might wanna...

take a good look at.

Yeah.

I know.

Yeah, hello!

-Say hi.
-[laughs] Good morning.

-[whimpers]
-Sorry. [laughs]

-Good morning!
-It's okay, baby.

[crying]

He's like, "I didn't
wake up for therapy."

[chuckles]

-I know, right?
-[laughs]

After, like, the
heated part about it,

I said, "What I'm going to tell
you is super not easy for me,

it is, like-- it's
making me cringe inside."

And it kind of took me a
little while to actually spit

the words out because I don't
know why it's so hard for me,

but I just told her, like...

And I kind of mumbled it because
it was so hard for me to say.

I was like, "It hurt my
feelings about what you said.

-Or about your response."
-[Orna] Yeah.

Great.

"It hurt my feelings.

-That's all."
-Yeah.

-That was super hard to say.
-Yes, it's hard to say.

Practice it.

It's the truth!

Everything else is nonsense.

No, I know, but it's j--

I guess at that very moment
is when I realized how hard

it is to get in
that vulnerability.

[Orna] Yeah.

Exposing the truth.

Yeah, but...

exposing myself.

Well, good, great.

Dru, great.

-Great.
-Yeah, I don't wanna feel

like...

like-- I guess, like-- like,
the little b*tch who's like,

"Oh, you hurt my feelings."

The little b*tch?

[Tashira] You gotta stop.

-[sighs]
-He's very much like that.

He's just, like...

Like, that's why I tell him,
like, I don't understand why he

thinks that I'm
tough, but he's like...

-tough tough sometimes.
-Mm-hm, right.

Like, he just-- it's hard
for him to express that.

And then after he said that, the
conversation totally mellowed

-out.
-[Orna] Of course, mm-hm.

We were able to-- I apologized
to him and I put the shirt on

and I took a picture and I
actually liked the shirt on me.

-[Orna] [laughs]
-So...

You see all this?

You see this sh*t?

[laughter]

chill music

[woman on TV] After
three months of lockdown,

offices, restaurants, and
hair salons are reopening in

America's biggest city.

Pretty soon, we're gonna
finally be meeting in person.

Right.

Yeah, that would be great.

So I will see you
sometime soon in person.

Yes.

Can't wait.

-That's gonna be amazing.
-Yes.

ambient music

It's been, what?

March... [whispering]

Five months.

I've seen you every day.

Just kidding.

You okay?

Yeah.

[clears throat]

-Hello.
-Hello.

-[Matthew] Hello.
-I'm giving you space.

Absolutely.

[laughter]

Shall I shut this?

Yes.

[laughter]

New protocols.

-[Gianni] Uh-huh.
-Oh, yeah.

-Don't come too close. [laughs]
-[Orna] Yes.

-So.
-So.

[Orna] How are you two?

In his world, there are a lot of
limitations right now because he

can't...

He can't travel back.

It's the first time since
when I left home that I haven't

gone back for this long.

-I haven't been back in a year.
-Oh.

So it's...

k*lling me inside.

It really is
doing a number on him.

He knows, yeah.

And it's the stress
of missing your family?

I feel stuck, you know?

Because I'm in a
position that yes,

I can go, but then he's like,
"When are you gonna be back?"

And I can't say,
"Okay, let's go together,"

because he can't go.

Because Americans are
banned from Europe.

So it's like...

What do I do?

I mean, I'm here
because he's here.

You're here 'cause
you're in a relationship.

[Gianni] Yeah, 'cause...

-now, I have my family here.
-No pressure.

[laughter]

It's true!

I mean, he's the reason why.

[Orna] Let's get to work.

No, I mean, do you hear this?

"He's the reason."

This is like his thing.

-I'm the reason for everything.
-But you are.

Well, for right now.

I could've been gone a month
ago because I can go back home.

-But you can't come back.
-I know.

And that scares you
and it scares me.

But you're willing
to do it, so--

I know I'm gonna
be back at some point.

Do you hear this?

But in this,
who's feeling what?

What are you feeling?

Is it I'm
holding him back?

I'm keeping him from doing
something he wants to do?

[Orna] I see.

That, you know, I'm the reason
that he is in this state of mind

that is awful for him.

But let me just understand.

Matthew, you're saying that
when Gianni's saying you're the

reason, your experience is that
it makes you into the bad guy?

Yeah.

That you're doing it to him.

[Matthew] Because he says I am.

[Orna] I wanna get from your
end how much of that do you

feel.

Do you feel like Matthew's
doing something to you?

-Sometimes.
-[Orna] When?

Because he says, "Okay,
if you go, then we're done."

-I did not say that.
-Oh, my God!

-You said it so many times!
-Wait, wait, wait.

-Are you kidding me?
-[Orna] Hold on.

Hold on.

Say.

Like, what's-- that's not--

[Orna] Matthew
says, "If you're going,

-we're done."
-"If you're going, we're done."

He's like, "What's the
point of being together?"

And if I go, this
is over, you know?

-Everything that we built--
-It feels like an ultimatum?

-[Gianni] Yeah!
-It's like a pressure?

That I have to
stay, yeah, exactly.

-[Orna] Uh-huh, it's a threat.
-To make him happy.

Do you have any
thoughts about this?

-I mean, I have a thought.
-Mm-hm, oh yeah, absolutely.

Tell me.

I'm at the point where...

just go.

But it's not an
ultimatum and it's not--

But what's that gonna
mean to you if I just go?

That I'm very concerned on
when this return date is.

[Orna] What you're projecting
into the future is some very

long separation.

Something will come between you.

I feel confident that
that's what it will be.

[Orna] Yeah.

I think about
all of this all the time,

'cause what if he does
something stupid or--

[Orna] Like?

I don't know,
start drinking again,

or start seeing someone else?

Right, so that's part of
what's sitting in this.

Yeah, I mean, I blame him,
and it's because of him.

I wanted to go many times last
year but I couldn't because you

were in the
hospital every two months.

And I was thinking, "If I go,
what is gonna happen to him?"

If something happened to him,
then I'm gonna blame myself."

Yeah.

I'm missing a lot.

[sighs]

And...I'm kinda
over missing things.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

You know, my grandad, he
turned 80 years old last month.

And he was like,
"You're not here again."

I was supposed
to be there and...

Sometimes, I feel
like he doesn't get it.

[Orna] Say more, Gianni.

[Gianni] When I was a kid, I
didn't care 'cause, you know,

I was living my life and
traveling and dancing but now--

Right, but I think
it's cumulative.

It sounds like this missing
and feeling like you didn't get

enough of them is
really longstanding.

Yeah.

I'm hearing two, let's
say, different kind of,

um, emotional issues that we
need to find a way to talk

about.

I mean, one is the pain of
missing and then there's the

question of blame.

Which is a more
complicated thing.

I think, Gianni, you still have
some resentments from the time

that you were drinking, Matthew.

Just to put it all on the table.

Can you just lay out the
different ways in which you're

blaming Matthew?

[laughs]

Well, I always blame him
that I left my dream job.

-What was your dream job?
-I was with this dance company.

-Which one?
-Les Ballets Trockadero
de Monte Carlo.

I was with them.

I had to go to
Japan for five weeks,

and he kept saying, "Oh my
God, five weeks is a long time,

five weeks is a long time.

We're not gonna make it.

It's not gonna happen.

And if you go, we don't know."

So for fear...I left.

My entire hometown bought
tickets, my entire family,

and it was the biggest
disappointment to my mom because

I wasn't there.

So yeah, I blame him,
but at the same time,

it was my decision.

So that's...

It's not a regret.

Do I regret it?

Yes, you do, you've
said many times you do.

Just stick to the blame.

What are we blaming me for?

What else?

But that's the big thing.

And then, the fact that--

But that's a thing and it also--
you're saying it's in a way

symbolic because it comes
back in other iterations.

In a way, it's like that now.

It's interesting because the
two of you are focusing on the

fighting about the blame but
what I hear is the two of you

really cherish the contact, the
connection between the two of

you and you're anxious about
it and you're protective of it.

Just keeping the
thread that binds you.

[Matthew] Mm-hm.

Because I'm
hearing you, Matthew,

in a way, you're
like, "Don't go!

Don't go!

Something bad
could happen to us.

-To us!"
-[Matthew] Right.

[Orna] And you're saying, "I
couldn't leave for more than two

weeks because something
bad could happen to us."

And you're both
saying, "This thread,

this us, there's a lot of
threats to it and we've got to

-keep it."
-Mm-hm.

That actually sounds nice.

[Orna] Yeah.

I actually feel better now.

Well, good, I'm glad that
that worked out for you.

We'll see how long it lasts.

And what about you?

What about me?

[Gianni] How do you feel?

You're saying "It
worked out for you."

No, I mean, I think that that's
a very nice way of looking

-at it.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.

Yeah.

I mean, I still think that
there's some rooted concerns

that will continue to come
up and that this blame thing,

I'm not-- I don't
take it lightly.

But Matthew, you might need to
kind of struggle with something

there of what it means for
Gianni to have gone through

this with you, right?

To bear that responsibility.

Mm-hm.

There might be something there
that might be useful for you to

grasp and will help
Gianni let go of it.

tense ambient music

[Orna] I feel like now we're
in, like, the thick of the work.

No more beginning,
getting to know people,

figuring out what's going on.

It's deeper and more intense.

And that's where change happens.