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01x06 - The Spy

Episode transcripts for the TV show, "Catch and k*ll: The Podcast Tapes". Aired: July 12 – July 26, 2021.*
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Series follows Ronan Farrow as he conducts interviews with whistleblowers, victims, private investigators, and other sources for his book Catch and k*ll in regard to the Harvey Weinstein sexual abuse cases.

01x06 - The Spy

Post by bunniefuu »

I didn't think I was gonna be followed,

but I thought you might be.

So, just in case, we had to take some

steps to avoid being seen together.

And then we ended up

in the basement of a restaurant

which I know conveniently

has like no cell service.

Scotch is good,

single malt scotch is good.

We've been overdue for a drink.

We've got a lot to talk about.

Yeah. A little overdue.

I might say too much.

Igor and I met in a pretty unusual way.

After "The New Yorker" began

publishing my reporting on Weinstein,

I followed up with a story

called Army of Spies,

about how he'd hired a firm called

Black Cube to track his accusers.

It's based in Tel-Aviv and run

by former Mossad agents

and specializes in using undercover

operatives with false identities

working for fake front companies.

I'd started to wonder if the

surveillance extended to me, too.

I'd been getting weird calls

and texts.

I felt like I was being followed.

Then in August, 2018, I was slipping

into a hot subway car

when I got a call on my cell phone.

The caller ID showed a name,

Axiom.

I ignored the call. But a little later,

I got a text. It said

I'm trying to reach you directly

and privately.

It's regarding a fry pan

that's scratch resistant.

Sometimes I cook

and the black coating scares me.

I'd recently posted a joke on Instagram

about a brand of frying pan

called Black Cube, with the caption,

scratch resistant,

may use false identities and shell

companies to extract information.

Whoever was texting me seemed

to know something

about the intelligence firm,

not the frying pan.

And they seemed worried.

I messaged back, can you say more

about who you are?

I can say I do surveillance.

We will need to meet discreetly

and make sure we're not followed.

What happened next felt like I was in

a John le Carre novel or something.

We agreed to meet

at a Brazilian restaurant in Manhattan.

But when I got there,

the person didn't show.

Instead, my phone rang.

Again, the caller ID said Axiom.

It was a man with what sounded like

it might be a Russian accent.

He told me what I was wearing

and said he needed to make sure

we weren't followed.

He instructed me to leave

the restaurant,

walk against traffic for several blocks

and then sit down in the back

of a different restaurant.

That was when I first met

Igor Ostrovskiy

a private investigator

who'd watched me for weeks.

Igor agreed to talk to me.

If you're wondering why his face

is in shadow,

he's still working as a PI and

he's still worried about retaliation.

Let's start at the very, very beginning.

Tell me about your family

and where you grew up.

I was born in Ukraine.

Our common thing to do when I was

like eight-years old was to burn things,

blow things up, cause trouble.

This Soviet entertainment for kids?

We used to break into things.

We had this thing,

basically like a smoke b*mb.

But we're not talking about like smoke

bombs you buy in the grocery store.

And not even the ones you buy

in Pennsylvania.

We're talking about like fill

the whole building with smoke.

He goofed off a lot.

But it was mostly harmless

and that was important to Igor.

He's a guy who always

had this really strong sense

of what's okay and what's not.

So, it's okay to do stupid things

to have fun.

But at that point at which you

actually could hurt somebody else,

then it becomes an issue.

Igor was ten-years old when

his family came to the US

as part of a program that resettled

Jewish refugees in America.

He had trouble making friends,

sometimes compounded

by that sense of right and wrong.

Like the time during high school

in New Jersey when he learned

that several classmates were involved

in a little light credit card fraud.

There was this one guy, Johnny.

Johnny worked in a store

that sold tools.

And he would steal the credit card

numbers off the customers

and sell them to my friends, right?

So, they send this guy who just

graduated high school to threaten me.

He said, listen, you know,

if anything happens to this guy,

if he gets caught, you're f*cked.

And I decided that, you know,

if I'm gonna be threatened,

it might as well be worth it.

What'd you do?

- I called the FBI.

- You're how old at this point?

15. 14. Probably 15.

I thought the FBI, you call them and

It's like, you know, like Superman.

They just come down from the sky

and fix everything.

- You're a narc.

- Very slightly.

Only in very unethical situations.

I didn't like that somebody

was messing with me, you know?

I knew that either you gotta get

a big stick

or you win by being smart.

As smart as Igor was,

when he graduated,

he didn't have much of a plan.

Eventually, he learned that a friend

of his had an uncle

who was a private investigator.

The profession seemed to fit

with his natural curiosity.

Mostly, this was pretty mundane work,

like going undercover in warehouses

to find out if anyone was stealing.

So, they would plant me

into a warehouse

and I would just become one

of the employees.

Igor says that's mostly what he was up

to for the first several years

of his career.

Then, in 2011, he came into contact

with the guy

who would eventually give him

the wildest job of his life.

I don't know why but I had this feeling

like I should find someone

who's part of my culture.

So, I Googled

Russian private investigators.

I'm not your typical investigator.

I'm the guy out in the field,

the action taker.

My name is Roman Khaykin

and I'm the founder of Infotactic Group.

Roman Khaykin ran an outfit

called Infotactic.

It was a pretty small-time operation.

He taught me how to do surveillance,

how to drive for surveillance,

how to blend in.

He taught me little tricks, you know?

How to make this job fun.

A lot of people can't figure

out where to find a bathroom

in New York. And we're talking

about clean bathrooms.

In every high-priced hotel,

there's a clean bathroom.

You walk in, you walk up to the bar

and you ask the bartender,

where can I wash my hands?

And what are your drink specials?

He goes to get you the drink specials,

he puts the menu down in front of you

and he directs you where to wash

your hands.

You use the bathroom,

you just leave.

Roman taught me that.

Every day working with Roman

was fun

cause if something was happening, it

was just action, action, action, action.

If nothing was happening, we were

watching comedy videos on YouTube.

Igor and Khaykin worked together

for years on and off

doing this kind of basic PI work,

which brings us to late 2016,

just as I started to follow the clues

that would lead to my story

on Harvey Weinstein.

Igor called Khaykin to see if he had

any new jobs lined up.

Khaykin said they should talk.

So, we met up in Brooklyn,

at Coney Island.

Told me he's into some new stuff.

He has a new client that seemed like

he wouldn't tell me who it was,

which I thought was normal because

we wouldn't tell each other

who our clients are because in this

industry, everyone steals clients.

So, I understood that he might

not wanna just openly tell me

what he's working on.

And then in the course

of that conversation,

was it you that raised the idea

of maybe being a part of this work

for this mysterious new client?

I told him, I told him straight up,

if you need help, call me.

Turns out, Khaykln did need help.

Many of these new jobs involved

what's called counter-surveillance.

Igor was supposed

to secretly follow operatives

to equally secret meetings.

Operatives sent by that mystery client.

The goal was to make sure nobody

else was following them.

I know, lots of secrets,

lots of following.

From the very beginning, nothing about

these jobs seemed normal to Igor.

He was told almost nothing about them

beforehand.

But he was picking up on clues

as he went.

Always in fancy hotels

or fancy restaurants.

And there's like couple of players

that I already learned.

- These are the agents of the client?

- Yeah.

Like the heavyset blonde lady

with glasses

or this guy that's called

The Spaniard.

I don't know why.

I guess he's from Spain.

Yeah, I was very curious.

The more you tell me

that I can't know,

the more curious I get.

I realized that something is going on

that's a little iffy.

And I just had an inkling that I should

be documenting everything.

And then one day in July 2017,

Igor got an assignment that would

force him to take a hard look

at what he was involved with.

One day, I get a call.

"We got a job tomorrow in Brooklyn."

"Gotta go. It's a New York Times

reporter. "

And I'm like, all right, that's weird.

Something I've realized through

my reporting over the last few years

that frankly kind of freaks me out

is how private intelligence

is everywhere

and just how extreme

some of the tactics can get.

This global industry,

it's like checkbook surveillance.

John Scott-Railton

is a senior researcher

for a group called The Citizen Lab

at the University of Toronto.

They investigate the tactics used

to silence journalists and dissidents,

like m*rder*d Saudi journalist,

Jamal Khashoggi.

Tactics including various forms

of private espionage

and surveillance,

all of which has become something

of a booming business.

You can go to a kind

of a global marketplace

and find a company that will sell you

a piece of kit,

to kind of do whatever you want.

It's like NSA in a box.

The problem is that many of the players

that can pay for it

can't possibly hold themselves

accountable

and can't possibly resist

the temptation to abuse it.

And if you look at the people

who are targeted, for example,

Javier Valdez, a Mexican journalist

investigating cartels.

Is it fair to say journalists

are being hunted?

Journalists are like one of the

largest slices of the pie of victims.

And we think that this is the kind

of tool that you use to find,

fix and finish journalists.

In 2017, Igor Ostrovskiy

was suddenly thrust

into that increasingly sophisticated

world of journalist hunting.

His boss, Roman Khaykin,

started sending him assignments

to follow reporters digging into the

allegations against Harvey Weinstein.

They briefly followed Jodi Kantor,

"The New York Times" journalist who

was also investigating Weinstein

and would eventually co-write

the newspaper's powerful story

about harassment allegations

against him.

I knew at this point that the goal

was to isolate and identify

Jodi Kantor's sources,

if she meets with any.

When I was in high school, I used

to go to the library before school

and just look at "The New York Times".

So, when we were following

Jodi Kantor,

I thought probably a little bit iffy

on the morals side.

And then we're supposed to follow you.

It felt to Igor like increasingly the

mystery client was turning its focus

away from "The Times" and toward me

and my reporting.

So, we ended up hanging out in front

of your building a couple times.

- Ended up seeing your super a lot.

- He's outside a lot.

Yeah, he's outside.

I ended up getting a bagel

around the corner.

Actually just passed by there

like I went

It's a lovely neighborhood.

I want to take a picture and send it

to you. "This is the bagel shop."

The aim appeared to be to figure out

what was happening to my reporting.

From the beginning,

the intensity was there.

We were like kinda going over things,

like how are we gonna control the

situation where if he goes this way,

what are we doing? If he goes

that way, if he gets a cab

Well, if he gets in a cab,

jump on the f*cking hood

so I have time to get around

the block and then you're burned.

But, you know, make the cab stay.

Maybe if we do that, then you're gonna

think something crazy's going on.

If you jump on the hood,

I'm gonna notice.

We're going over

all these possibilities.

It's more important

to get this one right.

At times, the operation could be

a little hapless.

They even spent some time following

a neighbor who kinda looked like me.

But I'll be honest. It was also scary,

growing increasingly convinced

I was being followed,

hearing from sources who said

I needed to be armed,

eventually putting my reporting

materials in a safety deposit box.

And the operation was getting more

intrusive and sophisticated.

On the last day,

when we have to follow you,

Roman tells me that he's gonna try

to find out where you are.

And I asked how,

and he said that he's gonna do the

geo location thing with the phone.

The geo location thing

is a new technology that allows

someone in Igor's job to track

a target by pinging their cell phone.

Roman told me that it's called

weather alerts. And I asked, why?

And he said, well, it works great.

You send someone a text message,

do you want weather alerts?

If you want, press yes.

If you don't want, reply no.

And once they reply yes or no,

we get the location.

I was like, that's brilliant. Whether

they want it or not, they still get it.

Well, as it turns out,

at this very same time,

my phone gets a barrage

of hundreds and hundreds of texts

that are not asking for alerts on the

weather, which I had also gotten.

But asking if I wanted to participate

in a survey on politics.

Politics for you,

weather alerts for Joe.

There were sports alerts

for somebody else.

It's interesting because I'm actually

that day headed

to my very first meeting

at "The New Yorker"

and it sounds like as that's happening,

you start getting maps

that show you exactly that.

I look at it, there's a pin drop.

I know it's on the westside highway

by World Trade,

by where the Goldman Sachs

building is.

And Roman comes to meet me.

And we get some more information

that you're like in that area.

So, what's going through your mind

as these tactics escalate?

At this point, I was already like,

all right, we gotta figure out

what's going on because

might have to take some actions.

Because it looks like something

I believe in,

the freedom of press,

is being possibly attacked.

In November 2017, I finally published

my story on Black Cube

and its efforts to track sources

and reporters

on Harvey Weinstein's behalf.

Harvey Weinstein's story and new

revelations about the great lengths

he allegedly went to in order

to quash stories

The disgraced Hollywood mogul hired

this elite team of spies

to secretly collect information

on dozens of actresses and journalists.

Igor read that article.

It was the first time he had heard

of Black Cube.

But the operation sounded familiar.

I saw your article in "The New Yorker"

and I called Roman. I'm like listen,

this is clear who we're working for

and this is clear that this is what

they were trying to do

because this is like the story about us

without mentioning our tactics

or our names directly.

Because the targets that I described

Black Cube having in that article

were also your targets?

Right. Something like that.

We'll leave it at that.

Igor's suspicions were right.

The mysterious client that had hired

Roman Khaykin as a subcontractor

was Black Cube.

This, it turned out, is how Black Cube

operates in cities across the globe,

hiring PI's with local licenses

to provide legal cover

and a better lay of the land.

The realization didn't sit well

with Igor.

Remember, as he put it,

it's okay to do something stupid

until it hurts someone else.

When I read it,

I said, this is horrible.

And this guy is doing it systematically.

There's no way I'm gonna continue

to be part of this.

Like there is no way I'm gonna

walk away from this situation

knowing that I'm helping someone

suppress the truth,

suppress the press and to get away

from taking responsibility

for these actions.

Igor decided he had to expose

the operation.

So, I thought, you know, again,

like from my childhood, call the FBI.

They'll solve everything.

So, 45 minutes later, a guy picks up.

I'm telling him there's

a foreign private intelligence agency

acting in New York,

possibly doing things against

the United States.

I don't know. But it's like I'm involved

in this thing.

He goes, so what do you do?

I said, I do surveillance.

He goes, nothing ill*gal. Click.

- He hung up on you?

- Yes.

I said, all right, well if I can't get

the government involved,

at least I can help this guy

and at least I should let him know

that this is what's happening.

That's when I got the coded text

about the scratch resistant pan

called Black Cube.

And how we wound up meeting

at that basement restaurant.

Igor showed me photos

he'd taken while following me.

My street, my front door,

my superintendent.

It was a huge risk for him.

I could see it in his face.

I didn't know if they're gonna

come after me

if my name comes out, if I have

to worry about getting ran off the road

into a ditch or some kind

of freak accident.

I was a little bit worried.

So, I didn't want my name out there.

But if I allow this to happen and I walk

away and I don't do anything,

then I'm complicit in allowing

the media,

the way of life I believe in,

to be attacked and to be changed.

And that could be irreversible.

I would later find out that Igor's

spy work was a lot bigger than me.

He was also helping Black Cube

gather intelligence

on John Scott-Railton,

that researcher at Citizen Lab,

to try to undermine his investigations

into private espionage companies.

This all came to a head

in January 2019

when a Black Cube agent set up

a meeting with Railton

at the Peninsula Hotel in Manhattan.

So, it seems fishy to you

from the get-go?

Yeah. Not too far into the conversation,

there's a guy who sits

down at a table in my sightline.

And is sort of holding his cell phone up

at me

while kind of consulting the menu

with one hand.

And I'm like, man, this guy's just

recording me on his cell phone.

That man was Igor, who was doing

countersurveillance for Black Cube.

So, while Igor was watching,

this Black Cube agent was pumping

Railton for incriminating statements.

Michel? Very nice to meet you.

But, then, Igor watched in amazement

as the tables turned

on the Black Cube agent.

Skeptical of the meeting, Railton

had arranged for a news crew

to capture the exchange.

So, it was a case of Citizen Lab

spying on spies.

- Do you work for Black Cube?

- Leave me alone.

Black Cube is one of many private

intelligence companies

that Citizen Lab investigates.

One thing fueling this growing industry

is high tech spyware.

A leading manufacturer of that type

of spyware is NSO,

an Israeli cyber firm.

NSO's flagship product

is something called Pegasus,

which is a suite of technology that

enables its user to reach out

and hack a telephone

without any interaction

from the phone's owner

and turn that phone

into basically a spy in your pocket.

It can listen to what's happening

in the room around you.

Obviously, it can snoop on your calls,

siphon off your messages

and your personal photographs.

More trouble for Facebook.

This time it's at WhatsApp.

Hackers were able to inject phones

with Israeli-made spyware

allowing them to access

users' information.

Citizen Lab discovered that NSO's

Pegasus software was used

to target Jamal Khashoggi,

the "Washington Post" columnist

who was m*rder*d by Saudi agents.

So, we had found that one of Jamal

Khashoggi's close contacts

was targeted with Pegasus

and we think infected as well,

which is pretty expl*sive because

this guy had been in close contact

with Jamal during the period

right before he was assassinated.

And this, obviously,

was a black eye for NSO Group

and for the Saudi government.

NSO, for the record,

denies hiring Black Cube

and says its software is sold to

governments and other entities

that wanna catch criminals,

not journalists.

An entire system of international

espionage and hacking,

targeting journalists and researchers,

is still going strong to this day.

And there are also people

fighting back.

For his part, Igor got a whistleblower

attorney and started the process

of volunteering to help prosecutors

if they needed it.

And he decided to go on the record

for my book.

He says he's glad

to have come forward,

to stand up to the increasingly

elaborate machine

that ensnares journalists

around the world.

I wanted to do the right thing

because this country gave my family

a life.

So, I have an obligation to defend

the constitution of this country.

Those threats to the free press

continue.

But as long as whistleblowers

like Igor and the others who helped

the reporting on Black Cube

are willing to take risks,

and as long as survivors

of terrible crimes are willing

to break through a culture of silence,

truth and accountability will always

have a fighting chance.

To tell the truth is always powerful.

This shouldn't happen to other women.

I kept repeating in my mind

that word, again.

That gave me strength to do everything.

The courage of those voices

can't be stamped out.

And stories, the big ones,

the true ones,

can be caught, but never k*lled.