01x02 - The Ethics of Revenge

[bunniefuu]

[film projector whirs]

[whistling music plays]

[Tony] Twelve years ago,

I saw a film from South Korea

called Sympathy for Lady Vengeance.

And it completely changed

how I watch movies.

There's a scene where the main character

captures a serial k*ller.

She finds the relatives

of all of his victims,

and one by one,

they exact their revenge on him.

Even though

all the violence happens off-screen

[man screams]

I felt like I saw everything.

I remember even looking away.

And I thought, "Why?"

"What was it about this revenge movie

that affected me where others haven't?"

Ah!

[Tony] I like revenge stories.

It seems like a lot of people do.

- But why do we like them?

- [car horn honking]

What attracts us?

The common definition

of an act of revenge has two parts.

First, we have a grievance,

and second, a retaliation.

However, I would argue

that there's a third element.

Revenge isn't

an instantaneous tit for tat.

The hero has to stew for a little bit

and then make a choice.

Built into the idea of revenge

is the possibility

that this person could walk away.

But they choose not to

because of one ideal.

[woman 1] There is a thing called justice.

- Justice.

- Justice.

- Justice.

- Justice.

- [man] Justice.

- Well, you're not talking about justice.

- You're talking about revenge.

- Sometimes they're the same.

[woman 2] They're never the same.

[Tony] Revenge stories

are always about justice.

But what kind?

Most of us live our lives

within the parameters of modern society.

If you have a serious grievance,

you're supposed to take it to the police

A couple days ago, my wife

and daughter were attacked.

[Tony] to the courts, to the newspapers.

These institutions

are there to civilize us

and to keep violence in check.

Revenge stories, on the other hand,

are about wild justice.

About what would happen if we let loose

and took matters into our own hands.

Thanks.

[screams]

[woman] I think justice,

action, and violence,

it's all sort of hemmed in together

of what we're trying to say about it.

In real life, violence happens

for no reason to good people.

[g*nsh*t]

And it's never resolved in any way.

I think that sense of injustice,

that lack of satisfaction

is something that people feel upset about.

Man gets shot that's got a g*n,

there's room for a reasonable doubt.

Man gets shot that hasn't got a g*n,

what would you call it?

It ain't fair!

When you're making fiction,

and you're creating every piece of it,

why not try to balance it out

a little bit?

[Tony] Revenge itself is hard to control.

But revenge movies are ritualized,

like a sporting event.

A movie sets up parameters

that tell the audience,

"These are the edges of the ring."

[grunting]

We understand that

the movie will only go so far,

and that allows us to enjoy the spectacle.

[woman] In some ways,

vengeance narratives,

they're an interesting justification

for depicting graphic violence.

There's the underlying sense that

the justice system isn't going to work,

so sometimes

human vengeance has to step in

to take on what

the justice system failed to do.

[Tony] But revenge movies

also walk a fine line.

Because even though the movie might show

how the system isn't doing its job

It's a f*cked-up system

you're sworn to protect.

Never said it was perfect.

So there's nothing you can do?

Nothing that's legal.

[Tony]we, as a society, need

those institutions in order to function.

So the revenge movie has to restore

the rules of society

it just blatantly ignored.

And the hero can't just get away

with flaunting the law.

There has to be some price.

Every revenge movie lies

on this sliding scale

[grunts]

between the emotional desire

to punish wrongdoers

[screams]

[gasps]

and the ethical implications

of doing that yourself.

And the thing

that draws me back to this genre,

why I like these stories,

is the basic question.

If I were in this situation,

what would I do?

[muffled shouting]

Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya.

You k*lled my father.

Prepare to die.

[Tony] The ritual of the revenge story

begins with the grievance.

What is the crime?

It has to be bad.

Horrible, humiliating, traumatizing

enough that the audience

will believe the hero spends

the rest of the movie trying to get even.

Audiences are much more willing to accept

violence in a movie when it's justified.

Audiences actually accept that violence

on a different level

You k*lled my father.

Big mistake.

[screams]

[Lisa]than they do violence

that is seen as sadistic, perverse

for the sake of suffering,

rather than an act of justice.

[Tony] At the same time, filmmakers

have to be tactful that they don't show

something too awful.

- [gasps]

- [engine revs]

And so what they often do

is leave the crime just off-screen

and instead focus our attention

on the hero's reaction.

[grunts]

[Lisa] One thing that it does

is it builds up the initial victims

as being more worthy.

Their deaths are so significant

that we don't get to witness their deaths,

because, in a way, to show us the violence

would cheapen the experience.

[Jennifer] The violence in your mind

is far more powerful

than violence that's actually on-screen.

You can imagine it.

It's all how you perceive

that information.

And actually, I think it's

somehow it's sometimes more disturbing

when your mind fills in the blanks.

[Tony] The revenge story

is all about getting the most sympathy

using the smallest amount of exposition.

And because of that,

filmmakers choose easy victims.

A wife, a child, a pet.

- [whines]

- These characters are thinly sketched.

Enough to gain sympathy

but not enough that they become

three-dimensional

and potentially unlikable.

And when these characters die,

they're often replaced by a token,

a banal item that reminds

the hero of who they once were.

It's visual shorthand

and extremely effective.

In Lady Vengeance,

the grievance is powerful and simple.

The victims are innocent children.

We never see their deaths.

Instead, we watch each parent watch

a tape of their own child being k*lled.

By the end of this sequence,

I knew what I wanted to happen.

But then the movie did something unusual.

The hero didn't take revenge.

She let these parents choose what to do.

[woman in Korean]

[Tony] And in doing so,

she let me choose as well.

[woman continues in Korean]

[dramatic music plays]

[Tony] One of the things that interests me

in revenge stories is the choice.

I've decided what to do with my life.

[Tony] How does someone decide

to pursue this path?

And how does it change them

once they remove themselves from society?

Never took the time to think about

where I was headed.

And now I'm losing it.

That I lose that, that's

- That's

- That's that's everything.

[Tony] We expect the hero to think about

their actions but not for too long.

I hate being called a beaver, don't you?

You gonna apologize or what?

f*ck you!

[Tony] We already know

what they're going to do.

[screams]

So what surprised me about Lady Vengeance

was that a group of ordinary people

had to figure it out.

And they didn't see eye to eye.

They argued and fought and compromised.

But eventually, everyone agreed.

This man had to die.

And they were going to do it themselves.

[g*n clicks]

Before a life is taken,

there's another important decision

for the filmmakers to make.

The audience agrees

that the hero deserves their revenge.

But how much?

What is the appropriate amount?

What is the virtue

of a proportional response?

Why is it good?

They hit an airplane,

so we hit a transmitter, right?

That's a proportional response.

[Tony] One of the important parts

of the ritual of revenge

is that the hero has clear judgment.

They are supposed to hurt

only those who get in the way.

They are not supposed

to target people needlessly.

[gasps]

This is often combined with the fact

that the hero is some kind

of highly trained k*lling machine,

able to work

with efficiency and brutality.

All of this gives us permission

to enjoy what follows.

Not only is the revenge justified,

it's professional and proportional.

[Lisa] A violent scene

is kind of like a scene in a film musical.

It's about movement of bodies.

It's about spectacle.

It's about the attraction of spectacle

and to get your heart racing

in an interesting way

as you're focusing as a viewer

on what's going on.

And no one's really thinking

about the violence, at some level,

of watching these kinds of things.

[shrieks]

[Tony] But what happens

if a movie breaks these unwritten rules?

What happens when the retaliation

starts to make us uncomfortable,

even if it's justified?

[muffled screams]

[tires squealing]

There's one scene from Goodfellas

that always gets me.

Henry Hill gets a call

from his girlfriend, Karen.

She tells him her neighbor

sexually assaulted her.

He started to touch me.

He started to grab me.

I told him to stop. He didn't stop.

I hit him back.

[Tony] Henry spots the guy

across the street

and then decides to retaliate.

This is shot in one unbroken take

so that we can see everything

that happens and everyone's reaction.

Do you think this is

a proportional response?

What do you want, f*ck?

You want something? Huh?

- [grunts]

- Hey!

- sh*t!

- What are you doing?

[grunting]

I swear on my f*cking mother,

if you touch her again, you're dead!

f*ck! [groans]

Don't sh**t!

[Tony] This scene

always makes me uncomfortable,

because it doesn't cut away

from Henry's actions.

It forces me to watch.

But when Goodfellas was aired

on network television, that changed.

You want something? Huh?

[grunting]

I swear on my mother,

if you touch her again, you're dead!

f*ck! [groans]

[Tony] About six seconds was removed.

This new version changes

the original intention of the scene.

Now, a prolonged p*stol-whipping

is just a couple of hits.

Ironically, toning down

the amount of violence

makes Henry seem reasonable

and proportional.

It makes this act of revenge

more of a fantasy.

He did what he needed to do.

And now he moves on with his life.

[dramatic music plays]

But that's a lie.

People know what's real,

and you live a life

understanding what real violence is

so that you escape

into the sort of the fantasy

of what violence could be

if it was done in the right way,

if it was applied for the right reasons,

if it was used in a way

that enhanced a sense

of right rather than wrong.

[Tony] One of last parts

of the revenge story

is that there is always a cost.

No hero who goes on a quest like this

comes out clean.

[dog barking]

The avenger, whose journey

has been marked by loneliness,

often ends up cast out of society.

After all, you and I cannot drop out

of our lives,

do what we want, and then expect

things to go back to normal.

Even in our fantasies,

there must be some payment.

The revenge story is one of the few genres

where the hero dying at the end

is acceptable.

We, the audience, get to have

our cake and eat it too.

We get to enjoy the bloody catharsis,

and we get to see balance being restored.

I think, in some ways,

entertainment is that.

Entertainment is about feeling excitement

about things and situations

that you can experience

[woman screams]

without dealing with the dangers

and repercussions of doing the real thing.

You know, I'd be interested to hear

why Lady Vengeance

Sympathy for Lady Vengeance

disturbed you so much.

Was it because of the vengeance

or because it made you question

the validity of the vengeance?

[Tony] I think this film disturbed me

because it held up a mirror.

The movie very carefully sets up

these violent situations

and then leaves them just off-screen.

I never saw these kids die,

so I imagine something horrible.

And I never saw

the villain being tortured,

so I imagine something even worse.

These parents are ordinary people like me.

They are clumsy and scared.

I thought I was disturbed by the violence.

But I was really disturbed

by the choices they made

and by how easily I went along.

The movie didn't let me sit

and passively observe.

I was in this just as much as them.

And I didn't like what I saw about myself.

Every revenge movie lies

on a sliding scale,

between the emotional desire

to seek justice

I want you to suffer.

[Tony]and the ethical implications

of doing that yourself.

But the thing that haunted me

about this one movie,

why I have a hard time watching it again,

is the lingering question,

if I were in this situation,

what would I do?

And could I live with the consequences?

[eerie music plays]