01x02 - Do You Believe In Coincidences?

[bunniefuu]

-(SUSPENSEFUL TUNE PLAYS) ♪

-(KEYS CLICKING)

RON WATKINS:

This is how the story goes.

One of Donald Trump's

most trusted people

who has a Q level

security clearance

is dropping information

anonymously online.

FREDERICK BRENNAN:

Q posts, and then Trump

says something similar,

and then they tie that

all together

in the proof Q exists.

QAnon is almost sort of a--

a mega conspiracy theory,

but much vaguer.

RON: To understand QAnon,

you have to start at the place

where Q posts.

So, I was getting on a plane

to hang out with the guys

behind the most notorious

website on earth.

If anyone knew who was behind Q,

it would be those closest

to the source.

(video game-style

music playing)

(violin music playing)

Filmmaker:

On my way to Manila,

I had a layover in Hong Kong.

The view from my window

was not all that different

from the one in Drop 130.

At this point,

Q had been posting

for just over a year.

♪

Manila was home to the team

behind 8chan,

the site where Q posts.

And I was planning to meet

with the site's creator,

Fred Brennan,

for the first time in person.

I had noticed that

social media platforms

were increasingly restricting

certain types

of speech online,

and I was curious

to what extent Q and 8chan,

a site that was unapologetic

about allowing almost

any type of speech,

played a role in that debate.

I assume that's why

they agreed to meet with me.

It was really a dice roll

whether or not this trip

was going to pay off.

Fred hadn't provided

an address,

or even an exact

time to meet up,

but the morning we were

supposed to film together,

Fred dropped his coordinates.

(speaking other language)

Filmmaker:

From the beginning,

Fred was surprised by how

minimalistic my setup was:

just me and

a film school grad

I'd hired locally.

He lived in a high-rise

gated community,

and despite

all the cloak and dagger

Uh, this way.

Filmmaker:

Fred said that

he was moving soon,

so it was okay

to film the grounds.

Fred had spent years

cultivating

some of the wildest content

the internet had to offer.

I couldn't help but wonder,

had he also played a role

in shaping Q?

(intense orchestral

music playing)

♪

♪

♪

♪

(Fredrick Brennan

speaking Filipino)

cheese hamburger

(speaking Filipino)

(laughs)

(speaking Filipino)

(speaking Filipino)

Chicken nuggets,

the table?

-Yes.

-I don't know if anybody

wants it,

but if you're still hungry,

you can eat it. So

You'd be surprised

how many people

come all this way to see me.

They just want to meet me.

The image in their head

does not match my reality.

They think that I'm,

like, this amazing guy

that made this amazing website

and I changed the world.

And I see myself as

somebody who was

in the right place

at the right time.

Yeah.

I think most of them

go away disappointed,

but at least they get

to eat curry rice

during their disappointment.

(laughs)

I grew up with just unfettered

access to the internet.

And I grew up also disabled,

so I couldn't go

run outside and play

with the neighborhood kids,

so throughout my life,

almost all of my friends

have been online friends.

Like, since the beginning.

Ready?

I have osteogenesis

imperfecta.

It's caused by

a single mutation

in a gene that makes collagen.

So the bones

don't form correctly,

so they become

really brittle, like glass.

I was always very

self-conscious

about my disability.

I fought a lot with

both my parents about,

you know,

"Why did you have kids?

You knew this would happen.

You received genetic counseling.

What's wrong with you?"

And it caused a lot of,

like, teenage angst, also.

My challenges around mobility

did make me more

intellectually curious,

because

there wasn't a whole lot

else that I could do.

Filmmaker:

The internet leveled

the playing field.

So Fred spent almost

all of his time online,

which meant his digital self

matured at a rapid pace.

So much so that,

by the age of 12,

he had already stumbled

across some of the most

shocking content

that the internet

had to offer.

Brennan:

When I first found 4chan,

I just saw what a lot

of people were saying,

and I felt like

I finally had discovered

what people were

really thinking.

Saying things like,

you know,

"Gas all the crippled people."

You know,

"I hate Downies.

Throw them off a bridge."

I felt like I was seeing

a window into people's

hidden thoughts

that they weren't saying

because it wasn't

socially acceptable.

But this is what everybody's

really thinking

when they look at me.

You know,

"Wow. Look at this

crippled ret*rd."

As a child,

I was very impressionable,

and I just felt, like, wow.

I've been lied to

my whole life

by people who

are telling me,

"Oh, it's good

to be different."

(fires)

I figured, like,

because the sites

just seemed so active,

you say, "Wow, this is

a huge number of people

that are just totally

speaking the truth."

Or what I thought

was the truth.

-(fires)

-So,

I feel like the internet

really changed my perspective

of the world a lot.

Don't smoke, kids,

or else you'll become like me.

I'm almost the dead baby.

Like, I'm one step

after the dead baby.

-If the baby doesn't die

-Filmmaker: When Fred was 19,

he became admin of a site

called Wizardchan.

The forum was a home

for male incels.

That is, virgins who think

they'll never have sex,

and just generally hate women

because of that.

But after Fred did some drugs

and slept with a prost*tute,

who had, well,

two fetishes

She had a fetish for virgins,

male virgins,

and disabled people.

So, I was both.

Filmmaker:

Fred was no longer a virgin,

so he resigned as admin

of Wizardchan.

-Woman (chanting):

Shame! Shame!

-(crowd booing)

Filmmaker:

While on his digital

walk of shame,

Fred began to look for

a new edge to lord over.

He was still an

active user on 4chan,

but he couldn't

create a board

without approval

from the site's owner.

Meanwhile, Reddit,

its more mainstream

competitor,

allowed anyone

to create boards,

but wasn't anonymous.

Brennan:

I was just thinking,

wow, wouldn't it be amazing

if Reddit and 4chan

had a baby,

and everyone could

make their own board.

Filmmaker:

So he merged Reddit's

democratized board creation

with 4chan's

anonymous posting,

and presto:

8chan was born.

Now anyone could

create a board,

and posts could be

totally anonymous.

Brennan:

But when I wrote 8chan

originally in 2013,

I wasn't really

planning for success.

I wrote the first part of it

while I was coming off of

psychedelic mushrooms.

Like, you know,

they call it the come down,

I think.

It wasn't meant to scale

from 100 posts per day

to, like,

10,000 posts per hour.

Filmmaker:

This free speech

maximalist approach

had given Fred an edge,

but he now had a serious

moderation problem,

because ill*gal content,

like child porn,

would get shared, as well.

Brennan:

I had no idea that

the hosting

was gonna be so hard.

I had no idea how my payment

processing worked.

I was just on the "hopium"

of free speech and all that.

Filmmaker:

Fred created 8chan

in 2013.

He was 19 years old.

With a mass influx of users,

Fred needed help.

It seemed he also

wanted to find a partner

who would let him continue

to run the site as its admin.

Brennan:

I started to get lots

of emails from people

that were interested in

running 8chan on their own.

Of all the offers I received,

I chose, uh, Jim Watkins

and his son Ron,

because I felt they had

the most experience

with this.

I would say overall

Jim is a good owner

for 8chan.

I would say that Jim

is not tech savvy at all.

Jim is much more

the business brain,

and Ron is much more

of a technical brain.

I would describe Ron

as a tech bro, pretty much.

He's a talented programmer,

also.

In some ways,

more talented than I am.

Filmmaker:

Jim Watkins is an

American businessman

operating out of

the Philippines.

Jim served in East Asia

while he was in the army,

and found a dollar

went a long way.

He offered for Fred

to come join them,

along with

a handful of perks.

Brennan:

So it was a no-brainer

for me to sell 8chan to them,

and move to the Philippines.

(laughing)

Like, they offered me,

you know, a condo

with the rent paid.

Jim Watkins:

When's the last time

you went swimming?

-Eight years ago.

I was 12. Yeah.

-Jim Watkins: Wow.

Brennan:

And then a caregiver also.

Jim Watkins:

Let go. It's okay.

We know CPR.

Filmmaker:

Fred had even found

a fiancée in the Philippines.

He now had plans

to get married in just

a few months.

So working with Jim Watkins

helped him support

this new life.

Brennan:

They kept me on, as like,

an employee now,

being the administrator,

not the owner.

Filmmaker:

As the administrator,

Fred had to deal with

all kinds of infighting

and drama on the boards.

Not to mention,

the site itself

operated at a loss.

It seems most advertisers

didn't want to touch it.

Brennan:

Being 8chan's admin was

really difficult.

It was really arduous work.

And then I decided to

quit from being administrator

in 2016, April.

Filmmaker:

Fred stepped down

as 8chan's admin,

but he continued to work

for Jim Watkins

on other internet projects

that they owned.

Brennan:

Uh, I don't believe 8chan

can ever be profitable.

Filmmaker:

What's the point

of running it, then?

You know how some rich men

will have a yacht?

Like, a big boat?

So, that boat is not

generating any income.

It's a liability.

It's not an asset.

So

I was told to just

think of 8chan as a boat.

-I'm on a boat ♪

-I'm on a boat ♪

I'm on a boat,

everybody look at me ♪

-'Cause I'm sailing

on a boat ♪

-Sailing on a boat ♪

Brennan:

It's a fun toy for Jim.

-Filmmaker: It's a boat.

-It's a boat. Yes.

-The SS 8chan.

-(filmmaker laughs)

Come on, baby.

That one is Jim's house.

He might get upset.

So we'll go around

the corner, okay?

Man, they have

a lot of cars.

Yeah. I don't wanna

say something

that's gonna

get me in trouble.

So let me just say nothing.

I don't want to say the words

"financial insolvency."

But maybe he has guests.

Let's give him the benefit

of the doubt.

-(dog vocalizes)

-(laughs)

Filmmaker:

When I asked him about Jim,

Fred was hesitant.

Brennan:

I really like working for him.

He's a great boss, but

Yeah, I mean, I have to be

careful what I say.

Filmmaker:

It's the first time

I noticed Fred

holding his tongue.

You know, in theory,

I'm supposed to meet

with Jim tomorrow to film.

Brennan:

Wow.

I really can't wait

to see your documentary

now that you got Jim in it.

Filmmaker:

Okay. (laughs)

-So this is speculation.

-Mm-hmm?

But I think he's worried

about what I'm gonna say,

so he wants to have

a counter to what I'm saying.

I don't think I'm saying

anything really bad,

but he might be

worried about it, so,

he just wants to make sure

his side gets in,

if you're already here.

Filmmaker:

At this point, Jim Watkins

was relatively unknown.

Okay, okay, okay.

Filmmaker:

It seemed that no one

had even considered

he might possibly be Q.

He owned 8chan,

and he self-described

as an industrialist.

Lights off.

Filmmaker:

So why did you seek out 8chan?

Jim Watkins:

I didn't seek out 8chan.

(laughs)

8chan is an accident.

My son said, you know,

this guy needs some help

with 8chan.

He can't afford the servers,

and said,

"Can we put this

in our data center?"

And I said, "Okay."

(car alarm chirps)

You say, "You own 8chan."

No, 8chan owns me.

It costs a lot of money

to run it.

I don't get much

for it, either.

They kind of

tricked me into it.

And then now I have it,

I can't get rid of it,

because it's important.

Filmmaker:

Jim seemed nervous.

He'd never given an interview

of this type before.

I was hoping to get

a better sense of

whether or not

Jim had the skills,

the knowledge, and the motive

to be behind Q.

Why do you think I'm here?

You are here to make

a documentary about me.

-Filmmaker: No. (laughs)

-(laughs)

No. About 8channel.

I'm sorry.

Filmmaker:

While Jim's data center

was located in California,

he actually had

a variety of businesses

that he operated

from the Philippines.

So, coming up is where

our office used to be.

Filmmaker: Which office

are you referring to?

The 8chan office?

Jim Watkins:

Nobody works for 8chan.

Filmmaker:

Really?

I, I was imagining

that there's like, a--

There's nobody works for 8chan.

There's people work for me,

that work on other things

other than 8chan,

because 8chan

doesn't make any money.

Filmmaker:

How do you keep it up, then?

(clears throat)

I make money doing other things.

I'm well-deser--

Well-diversified.

(Muzak playing)

♪

It's like--

It's like a beret.

Yeah, I have

an organic store,

and this is one of our

means of livelihood.

We bake our own bread.

Fresh harvest.

We got some kale in

from the farm.

We do serve our own bacon.

Even our eggs are organic.

Filmmaker:

Um, what is the point

of 8chan?

Jim Watkins:

To give people a place

that they can have

freedom of speech without

having to worry about

getting in trouble

for saying something.

I'm just sick of,

you know, people being

censored and gender-neutraled,

and all of that.

It makes me angry.

It's like, this is not

what America's all about.

I grew up watching

Archie Bunker,

and he was, like, a pig.

Been around a lot of places,

I done a lot of things,

but there's one thing

Archie Bunker

ain't never gonna do,

and that's break bread

with no jungle bunnies.

Jim Watkins:

8channel users,

they use "kikes" and "wops,"

and all, all of the,

all of the bad words

for everybody,

you know, and it was,

like, wow. (laughs)

Filmmaker:

After we had some time

to settle in,

I got around to

asking Jim about Q,

and what he thought about

the biggest banning of

QAnon to date,

done by his mainstream

competitor, Reddit.

So one of the first things

that turned me on to 8chan,

uh, was that Reddit

banned QAnon.

Well, I don't honestly

follow that board.

I don't know what

they were talking about.

I, you know,

it's just one of our users.

And it wasn't anything that--

that we were getting

police reports for

or anything.

What are they talk--

What are they talking about?

Like, revolution now,

or something?

I'm not, I'm not

a political person, myself.

Let's see what's going on

in the back.

I really stay out

of politics,

'cause it's against the law

for foreigners

to be involved in politics

in the Philippines. So

Filmmaker:

But, I mean, like, you can

be involved in US politics.

Jim Watkins:

But I live here.

I don't really know

what's going on.

Woo-hoo-hoo.

Chicken soup!

Sorry I don't know more

about the Q stuff.

But from what I understand,

the Q is not, uh,

causing us any trouble.

Filmmaker:

When Reddit banned QAnon,

people started rallying

around this notion

that some ideas

are just too dangerous.

Dangerous ideas.

That's scary.

That's a scary idea

to have dangerous ideas.

Okay, let's take some kale.

Let's try putting

some cream in it.

You know, I've had

dangerous ideas, like,

my one idea was to, like,

round up all of the politicians

and then machine g*n them.

(blender whirring)

And then their replacements

come in,

you round them all up

and machine g*n them.

(blender whirring)

And then the third round,

you tell them, "You be good,

or I'm gonna machine g*n you."

And then I was gonna vote--

run for president

and be Machine g*n Jim.

But, actually, I have no idea

if this is gonna be

good or not.

♪

Actually, that's pretty good.

(laughs)

Yeah, I'm not

politically correct at all.

♪

Filmmaker:

Of course, I was curious

about the brewing tension

that seemed to exist

between Jim and Fred,

and wondered why Jim

had decided to subsidize

8chan in the first place.

Well, I agreed to help,

and then Fred agreed

to move here, and

I was nice to him.

I treated him well.

And I took his broken website

which was completely broken,

and my engineers

fixed his website.

Filmmaker:

So, uh,

is everything okay

between you and Fred?

We, we have a gentleman's

agreement on it that

we would split

the profits 60-40.

But there hasn't been

any profits yet.

Filmmaker:

Fred was still

working with Jim

on his other projects.

Just not for 8chan.

Jim Watkins:

I wish he would be

involved with 8chan.

It might be more successful.

(laughs)

It could happen.

♪

Filmmaker:

So, Fred, I know that

running 8chan

was super taxing,

and I guess

I'm just wondering

if there are any other

moral dilemmas

that are preventing you

from coming back to run 8chan.

As an American,

I grew up in school,

and we're taught in school that,

okay, one of the things

that makes America greater

than all the other countries

is that

we have real free speech,

and in other countries

they have libel laws

and hate speech,

and lots of

obscenity laws and

So, that's something that's just

a cherished American value.

And I never really

questioned that.

And that was

the kind of mentality

I opened 8chan with.

But

you can't go three years

as 8chan's admin

seeing the reality

of total free speech

without having your faith

in this, uh, sacred concept

shaken a little bit.

Filmmaker:

Even though 8chan

was home to Q,

most QAnon followers never

actually visited the site.

Instead, they would

go to places that

collected Q's drops,

like qmap.pub.

These archival sites

made Q's messages

easy to search,

expanding Q's reach,

while sanitizing the darker

realities of 8chan.

Liz Crokin:

I don't really

go on the boards.

So

Filmmaker:

I mean, it's a hard place

to be.

Yeah. It's, it's too chaotic.

Filmmaker:

Do you read QDrops

on 8chan,

or one of those sites

that collects the drops,

like qmap, or--

Oh, I ne-- yeah, exactly.

I go to qmap.

Filmmaker:

Are you on 8chan a lot?

Uh, only if I have to be.

That website is a headache,

I've gotta say. Um

It's not a place

for soft people.

It's not meant to be

a place for soft people.

It's not meant to be a place

for easily offended people.

It's a place for adults.

Filmmaker:

How do you deal with

being on 8chan as Christians?

-That's a good point, too.

-Well, thank God my wife

is not on 8chan.

(laughs)

I've seen some of the threads.

And I've, I've explained

to her about the--

there's pornographic

stuff there.

There's gore. Violence.

Like,

literal graphic stuff.

Like, they post--

There's child porn on there?

Filmmaker:

Well, they pull that down.

They pull down

anything that's ill*gal,

but it gets posted all the time.

-Really?

-Yeah.

I didn't know that.

I've never heard that before.

That's troublesome.

I just told her basically

what was on there,

and she kind of went,

-oh, okay. (laughs)

-Okay, yes, I trust you.

I don't want to see it,

but I, I trust you.

And that's why

I'm so thankful to God,

'cause I have a wife that,

that trusts me when,

you know, I'm dealing with

this kind of evil sickness.

Yes.

Filmmaker:

The person now

administrating this

so-called "evil sickness"

was Ron Watkins,

Jim's 30-something-

year-old son,

who had just flown in

from Japan.

-This is the elevator

power cord.

-No, it's not.

Don't run into

the elevator power cord.

Jim Watkins:

Welcome to 8chan headquarters.

Ron Watkins:

This is 8chan headquarters.

Wheelchair accessible,

right there.

Filmmaker:

Jim's command center for

his entrepreneurial efforts

was largely vacant

when we arrived.

-Pen 15 club, Frances?

-Oh!

You have to give him

a tattoo.

Ron Watkins:

Wait, I think we gotta get

Filmmaker:

There was a small studio

where they recorded content

for a news site called

The Goldwater.

-No, we'll make you,

like, a badge, here.

-Tattoo time! A tattoo!

-Team.

-Jim Watkins: I'm a member

of the Pen 15 club, too.

-Frances: Yeah.

-(laughing)

-Welcome to the club.

-Welcome! (laughs)

Filmmaker:

The 8chan servers

were in California,

its volunteers scattered

around the globe,

and its headquarters

essentially wherever

Ron carried a laptop.

(anime song playing

over computer)

Though it seems

some work did get done here.

Jim Watkins:

We don't have a serious bone

in our bodies.

Your documentary

won't be picked up

by anybody

if we talk the way

we usually talk.

Filmmaker:

How would you say

you differ from your son?

Jim Watkins:

I don't differ from him.

We're, like,

out of the same mold.

When he was 10 years old,

he's sitting right next to me

with just a little black

Compaq computer he had.

Ron Watkins:

I'm more of an anti-social

type person. I avoid

social contact

as much as possible.

I prefer to spend

my time programming.

I talk mostly with my dogs.

Uh

Jim Watkins:

But your dog talks back.

My dog does talk back.

(laughs)

I, I agreed to be

interviewed for this

because it's very important

to get the word out

that, uh, as the years go by,

more and more people

are attacking

free speech online,

and we need to do

all we can to defend it now

while there's still time.

I, I'm more of like, the,

the forgetful professor type.

Like,

I'm terrible at adding,

subtracting, multiplying,

and dividing.

But I'm really good at very

high-level mathematics.

Like PhD-level mathematics.

(clears throat)

I'm able to use

these mathematics to

build things that other people

are not able to,

to, uh, comprehend.

Filmmaker:

Uh, you're also known as

Codemonkey?

Uh, Codemonkey. Correct.

Well, there's a, a famous song

from, I guess 2005,

called "Codemonkey."

And there's a music video,

and you can find that

on YouTube.

And I really liked the name,

and then one day,

I was, uh,

mining tripcodes

and came across "Odemonkey,"

so I added a "C" on the front,

and it became "Codemonkey."

People approach me

all the time asking who Q is.

And I always say,

"I don't know."

He's just another 8chan user.

And he's welcome to post

on 8chan as long as he wants.

We don't know who Q is.

It's not me.

(clears throat)

Might be you. Right?

But it's not me.

Only Q would do a documentary

about himself. Like--

-(laughs)

-Yeah, you know way more

about it than me.

It's like, wow.

So he posted

about six hours ago.

And that does coincide

with this flurry of activity

about six hours ago.

Q even attacked me.

And I had to-- (coughs)

I had to set that straight

quickly.

Filmmaker:

While calling it an attack

might be an exaggeration,

Q had told Ron

to check his code,

complained about being

locked out of the board,

and even asked Ron

for more resources.

Yeah, CM, which I assume--

I mean, that stands for

Codemonkey--

Ron Watkins:

See, it says here he has

a team to secure.

So

From then,

I figured Q was a team.

-Right.

-Right.

I'm pretty sure Q is

a spin-off from "Star Trek."

The Q is like a type

of security clearance,

called the Q-level clearance.

Yeah. I have one,

but I'm not Q.

-You don't have

a Q-level clearance.

-(both laugh)

Filmmaker:

While Jim didn't have

a Q-level clearance,

he did have

a military background.

I started out as

a mess hall truck driver,

and after that, I went on

to army recruiting,

and I did that

for about 10 years,

and then I got out of that

and started my own company.

Filmmaker:

Jim discovered

a niche online

where he could use the laws

of one country

to skirt around the laws

in another,

which primed the pumps

for his next endeavor:

investing in imageboards.

The very first imageboards

actually started in Japan.

But they were

heavily censored,

due to Japanese law.

That would

all change in 1999,

when a Japanese college

student in America

named Hiroyuki Nishimura

created 2channel.

2channel was named after

the channel that

you tuned your TV to

when hooking up

an old-school video game

console.

Because the site was hosted

on American soil,

2channel was able to bring

unfettered free speech

to Japan,

and it was insanely popular.

That's when Jim got involved.

Jim Watkins:

Hiroyuki came to me

and he said,

"I can't afford

to do this anymore,"

and so we put some servers

in my data center,

and we put it online.

Filmmaker:

In 2003,

America finally got a taste

of the chan culture

that its free speech laws

had helped to create.

(screaming):

4chan!

Filmmaker:

4chan's founder,

Christopher Poole,

also known as "moot,"

got his start at

a comedic website

called "Something Awful."

Something Awful helped shape

meme culture as we know it.

And when moot created 4chan,

it preserved something

that made the internet

in the '90s special

Anonymity.

4chan had a few knockoffs,

including 420chan,

which focused

more on drug culture.

It was started by

this guy, Aubrey Cottle.

420chan, that started

as a damn joke.

Like, it was, it was 420.

We were, we were

f*cking high as sh*t,

and he's like, "Hey.

(chuckles)

"You should register

420 chan.

That--

That'd be f*ck' funny."

Filmmaker:

But Aubrey Cottle had

another claim to fame.

He had cultivated

the collective of

internet hacktivists

and keyboard warriors

known as none other

than "Anonymous."

Anonymous:

Welcome. I am Anonymous420.

We interrupt your

YouTube time to bring you

this urgent news story.

Filmmaker:

Anonymous started

as a prankster collective,

and users were organizing

to pull off comedic

and sometimes

offensive stunts.

Anonymous:

Contrary to the assumptions

of the media,

Anonymous is not simply

a group of superhackers.

Anonymous is a collective

of individuals united by

an awareness that someone

must do the right thing.

That someone must bring

light to the darkness.

Filmmaker:

But as Anonymous evolved,

it became

increasingly political.

At first,

they targeted individuals

on the wrong side of history,

like talk show host

and Holocaust denier

Hal Turner.

Hal Turner:

Why are you listening

to this show?

This is a show

for white people.

Get outta here, you spic.

(Anonymous supporter speaking)

And basically

we destroyed his ability

to pay for his radio show.

Filmmaker:

They went on to target

Scientology.

Anonymous:

The extent of your

malign influence

over those who have come

to trust you as leaders

has been made clear to us.

Anonymous has

therefore decided

that your organization

should be destroyed.

Filmmaker:

And even went after

the Federal Reserve.

Newscaster:

During the hack of the Fed,

Anonymous stole

the login credentials

of some 4,000 bankers

from across the country.

All I remember is that

all of us were f*ck'

terrified.

That all of a sudden,

Anonymous was just

this big f*cking

global thing

and it just dramatically

accelerated from there.

They went fully mainstream.

Filmmaker:

Havoc ensued,

and between 2011 and 2012,

dozens of arrests

happened around the world,

causing Anonymous

to splinter.

Newscaster:

Twenty-five members

of Anonymous

have been arrested

across Europe.

Aubrey Cottle:

And we're, like, freaking out,

being like, oh, f*ck,

oh, f*ck. oh, f*ck.

What did we do?

Oh, Jesus.

Filmmaker:

After Anonymous faded

from the limelight,

in 2014, a controversy

known as GamerGate

exploded from the bowels

of 4chan.

This new collective

borrowed from the tactics

of Anonymous,

but had a very

different agenda,

pushing back against

the feminist critique

of video games.

Paul Furber:

Yes, I followed GamerGate

from the very beginning.

I found it fascinating

and I fully supported it.

It was the first time

in many, many years

that a culture stood up

to feminist takeover,

and won.

Filmmaker:

It went after prominent

female game developers,

critics,

and their associates.

And using the shield

of anonymity,

users coordinated

harassments campaigns

on 4chan.

Zoe Quinn:

Instantly, they dived into,

"Find where she lives.

Find where,

where all these

people live."

Uh, "What are we

gonna do about her?

Can we hack her email?"

Like, instantly.

(choir singing)

Filmmaker:

But collectively,

lessons from Anonymous

had been learned.

There were no

self-declared leaders.

There was no clear objective.

Just male-driven vengeance

under a collective banner:

gamer culture.

Mark Mann:

Just a matter of,

sort of the rage,

that gamers were having

by being abandoned by

the industry that

used to cater to them.

Filmmaker:

Mark Mann was essentially

the godfather of GamerGate.

He oversaw

the video game board

where anons would

discuss tactics

for their

harassment campaigns.

Was anyone ever doxxed

in that process?

Well, yeah. It's the movement.

Everyone's gonna get doxxed.

-(laughs)

-Cottle: We have GamerGate.

It started with ethics

in games journalism,

and that was co-opted

by people leaning

towards the right,

and then started

pushing them towards a

"liberal media is

lying to you" agenda.

And then that

completely f*cking

transformed from there

into the alt-right.

Quinn:

The first thing you lose

is all perspective.

Uh, it's like you're just

constantly surrounded

by nothing but hate.

Filmmaker:

Christopher Poole decided that

that flavor of free speech--

too toxic for 4chan.

And in December of 2014,

all mentions of GamerGate

were given the axe.

Furber:

4chan, the bastion

of free speech, was

banning mentions of,

of GamerGate.

(singing to tune of

"Blame Canada")

Filmmaker:

And 4chan users

weren't happy.

Including Fred Brennan.

I think the media

just doesn't understand that

4chan is heavily moderated.

There are rules.

Like, well, activism

is banned on 4chan.

You can state

your political beliefs

and have debates,

but when you start

turning it into action,

that's what gets

banned on 4chan.

Filmmaker:

Fred was still

a heavy 4chan user,

and the censorship

of GamerGate seemed to prove

that speech on 4chan

really wasn't that free.

Brennan:

So, my philosophy,

because I had gone years just

getting angrier and angrier

at the 4chan administration,

that any way that I could

hurt 4chan was a good thing.

Filmmaker:

Fortunately or unfortunately,

he'd already created

a space that welcomed

the controversy.

♪

Brennan:

I thought,

oh, I have this big

number of refugees

from 4chan.

I'm gonna do everything I can

to support them,

as an attack on 4chan.

Filmmaker:

And in late 2014,

that's when users started

flooding over to 8chan.

To the video game board

run by Mark Mann.

Mann:

I think what brought

a lot of people to 8chan

was the fact that

it was unique.

You know, we promised

better moderation,

a much more

streamlined community,

than what was on 4chan.

Filmmaker:

Around the time

Anonymous splintered,

Jim and Hiroyuki splintered,

as well.

Jim claimed that Hiroyuki

had stopped paying the bills.

There would be battles

that play out in

Japanese court,

and Jim ultimately

modifies the name

from 2channel to 5channel.

Brennan:

It's pretty crazy

what Jim did.

I mean, he basically

ran the deeds office

and just crossed off

Hiroyuki's name

and put his own name.

Filmmaker:

Of course,

after this happened,

Jim and Hiroyuki

became bitter rivals.

That was fun.

Filmmaker:

It's around this time that

Jim extends his support

to Fredrick Brennan

as the owner of 8chan,

expanding Jim's reach

to the US.

Now Hiroyuki, well,

he's a celebrity in Japan.

But his celebrity status

didn't help him

in his numerous

court cases against Jim.

So, there was only one

real way to get back at him,

and the opportunity

presented itself

when Chris Poole,

fleeing from the fallout

of GamerGate,

decided that he needed

to sell 4chan.

And he sold it to

none other than Hiroyuki.

Ron Watkins:

They had a falling out,

and Hiroyuki

purchased 4chan.

I believe that was partly

to spite my father.

Filmmaker:

These methods of organizing

attacks and pranks,

first popularized

by Anonymous

Anonymous:

That someone must bring

light to the darkness

Filmmaker:

Then used during GamerGate.

Cottle:

I can map out the entire

family tree

starting from Something Awful.

There's a direct lineage

pointing right back

to my sh*t.

Filmmaker:

These methods,

it seems that

they were just preludes

to what would

eventually become

QAnon.

Welcome back, my friends.

This is Dustin Nemos

of dustinnemos.com.

I have something interesting

that just happened,

uh, and you're not

gonna believe it.

So I've been

talking about how

a couple times--

I mean, I'm not bragging

or anything,

but I mentioned it

once or twice, 'cause

it's, it's interesting.

I was invited

to speak on QAnon

at the American Priority

Conference, uh, in DC.

Yeah, the organizer

reached out to me, and, uh,

basically said,

"Hey, I wanna do a Q panel.

Would you come and participate?"

And I was like, "Sure."

Filmmaker:

Up until now, QAnons

had organized online.

But for the first time ever,

key Q-tubers were stepping out

from behind their monitors

into the limelight.

Will Sommer:

The whole American

Priorities Conference

was sort of created as a,

uh, you know, an alternative.

So this was supposed to be

this kind of vision

of the new right,

this internet right.

The Clinton Foundation's

the next one that's coming up.

That's the next thing

that's gonna be the next, uh--

I haven't even caught up

on all the drops yet

from today.

We're fighting a w*r

against evil,

and people who eat babies.

Filmmaker:

Craig James from

JustInformedTalk,

Dustin Nemos from

The Nemos News Network,

and future congressional

candidate Deanna Lorraine

were all scheduled

to headline,

not to mention the infamous

political hitman Roger Stone

was slated to make

an appearance.

Operatives like Roger Stone

and General Flynn

understood the power

of information warfare,

both having bolstered rumors

that a child sex dungeon

existed in the basement

of a DC pizzeria

frequented by their

political opponents,

even though no such dungeon

was ever found.

Now, what do you think--

I've heard rumors of,

of restaurants here in DC

where you can go,

you know, down to the basement,

right?

And they're serving kids up

to Saudi princes and stuff.

I, I haven't heard that one,

but I know,

you know, it takes me back

to the Comet Ping Pong example.

I, I, that was

where I got it from.

-Yeah. And I love how

-All the Comet Ping Pong stuff.

Filmmaker:

Do you talk about Q

at all in your posts?

Yes, I do. Absolutely.

Because Q kind of ties

everything together.

And Q has people

wake up to the fact that

things that people

in the media have told us

have been very much,

you know, indoctrination

and lies.

A few different pieces together,

you may understand now

the power of thousands

and thousands of people

on the internet

Filmmaker:

While the earliest

promoter of QAnon,

Tracy Beanz, was still

allowed to speak,

presumably because

she was no longer openly

discussing QAnon,

she presented

to an empty room.

The other QTubers

were given the boot.

We were gonna speak

on the QAnon issue,

as, as it applies to,

you know, the, the overall

MAGA movement.

And they uninvited us

for that purpose.

Someone's pulling some

strings, to force him

to, uh, dis-invite us.

I actually, uh,

wrote an article

about that QAnon panel,

and how it was

planned to happen,

and then highlighted

some of the bigger speakers

they had at the time.

And after that article came out,

the QAnon panel was canceled.

Dustin Nemos:

Q is not popular among

a lot of the alt-leftist

media people.

You know, a lot of them

build about half

of their audience

on bashing Q.

You know?

It doesn't matter if

they want to de-platform me.

We're still getting

the word out.

Filmmaker:

Q gives you

a great deal of power,

in a way,

by using your platform.

Correct.

Filmmaker:

Why do you think Q trusts you?

I don't know that Q trusts me.

He might not trust me.

Many people are putting

a lot of faith and hope

into Q.

And hoping that

what he's saying is real,

and is going to change

the course of history.

Filmmaker:

You think Q is seeking infamy?

Well, Evelyn Hall once said,

"I disapprove with

what you're saying,

but I'll defend to the death

your right to say it."

I don't agree

and I don't disagree

with what Q's saying.

But I really

appreciate that he's using 8chan

to, uh, get his message out.

Filmmaker:

And do you seek infamy?

Uh, I don't seek infamy,

but I will embrace it.

-Filmmaker:

What about your dad?

-(laughs)

Uh, I, I can't speak for him,

but

(laughs)

He, he's a character.

Jim Watkins:

I've been blessed

with a really good life,

and I have a lot of fun.

This is what I do for fun.

I play with pens.

When you put in a cartridge

like this,

you wanna flick it a little bit,

like you're flicking--

flicking a spitball in class.

And that one will be able

to write shortly.

Okay.

Filmmaker:

Jim mentioned that

he has another hobby:

pigs.

To visit his farm,

we would need to make

a lengthy drive into the jungle

on the outskirts of Manila.

The pig farm was a place

of legend on 8chan.

Users liked to speculate

that it was where Jim

disposed of his enemies.

(man screaming)

Jim Watkins:

Well, the pig farm

is an active business.

It's where we get rid of

the bad users.

-Ron Watkins: No. (laughs)

-(filmmaker laughing)

Oh. Did I say that?

No.

Filmmaker:

Despite all the rumors

about Jim's farm,

I still had a hard time

imagining that

he was going to feed me

to the pigs.

(filmmaker speaking)

Ron Watkins:

Fredrick was growing

irritated and discontent

with the site.

It grew too fast,

and it outgrew the software.

They weren't able to

figure out how to, uh, grow it.

And so, uh, I devised

a, a way to scale it.

And, uh, my method worked.

And we were able

to scale 8chan to,

to the size it is now.

Jim Watkins:

I'm so happy

that you were able

to interview Fred, though.

Because that's, like,

proof of life, 'cause

people have, like,

accused me of, like,

k*lling him.

And of course I didn't.

He's a friend of mine.

You know?

Filmmaker:

You think you're

their enemy at this point?

I don't think I'm their enemy.

No, not at all.

Definitely there's been

some disagreements

over the years,

and definitely we have

our differences, but,

if it was true, I would have

already been fed to the pigs.

So, it's not true.

(pigs snuffling)

Jim Watkins:

Maybe 25 percent of 8chan

is paid for by pigs.

With your weapon

in your hand ♪

I'm gonna be

a fightin' man ♪

Sebastian is my, um,

stud.

We don't do artificial

insemination here.

We do it natural,

and he's a lover,

not a fighter.

He's a wonderful lover.

They love him, too.

Over here we got

his girlfriends.

This is his harem.

Seventy-one, two,

three, four, five. 75.

So I have 75, uh,

piglets and weaners.

They're weaning.

(squealing)

I'm gonna build

a house up here.

And I'm gonna make this

my private yoga studio.

That data center's in here.

(laughs)

♪

Ron Watkins:

Running an imageboard is not

for the faint of heart.

I'm being attacked every day

from all different angles.

You have to have thick skin,

and not care what

they talk about.

I've had a lot of

mental, uh, training,

and I've spent

many years meditating,

and I used to stay

in a monastery.

Uh, I learned a lot about

how to try to k*ll the ego,

or, or even just

work around the ego.

And because of that,

words from other people

attacking me

or saying terrible things

about me

does not bother me at all.

So I usually, uh,

avoid drama as much as I can.

It's just high stress,

and I don't need

a lot of stress.

♪

Brennan:

Excuse me, Pol.

Yan.

Filmmaker:

So who do you think brought

this Q to your apartment?

How did this arrive?

I just found it one day.

I wrote up a report

as soon as it happened,

but

Filmmaker:

Where was it?

Brennan:

It was, um, man,

where was it?

I think it was just

on my desk.

It was a long time ago.

I don't really remember

the details anymore.

Filmmaker:

And Q had posted

at some point

that he was going to,

like, thank,

I don't know if it was

the creators of 8chan, or the--

Right.

He said he was gonna

send a message

to the 8chan administrators.

Came back, I saw it,

and I thought

it was really weird,

and I just looked at it,

and then I just,

I just posted it online.

I wrote, "This could

be something,

or this could be nothing."

I thought it would be

funny to say,

"Oh, it could be from

the real Q."

And weirdly enough,

Q never repudiated that.

I'm one of the Q proofs.

They believe Q put the Q

in my room,

but

it's not like, you know,

it's not like a bad gift

or anything.

It's a good gift for me.

I design fonts, so

The Q is my favorite letter.

And it always has been,

since I was a kid.

When you're a typographer,

you're always fighting

between

making sure people

can read the letter,

and then your own

artistic intent, so

Q gives you the most freedom.

There are so many ways

to put the tail of the Q.

You can have it bisecting.

You can have it only inside,

so none of this part.

You can have it totally outside.

You can have it touching,

or you can write it as a two.

So, it gives a typographer

a lot of freedom

when they're

designing a font.

And I'm not sure if any

other letter does that.

Filmmaker:

You do have an unbelievable

amount of Qs in here.

Brennan:

Thank you!

Filmmaker:

Yeah. This-- It's

It's as if your room is,

is just Qs.

Brennan:

Back when I first got

the blue Q,

QAnons, they would send me Qs

to be like, thank you.

'Cause like, they saw

the blue Q as a sign.

So not all these Qs

are actually bought by me.

I never acknowledged

any of the Qs that came here.

Filmmaker:

But you didn't get rid

of them, either. (laughs)

Brennan:

That's true. Yeah.

Filmmaker:

Do you think it's possible

that Fredrick Brennan is Q?

Uh, I think Fredrick Brennan

could be Q.

But having an object

does not mean

you are the person

associated with that object.

Example, uh

Here's a MAGA hat, right?

Does that mean I'm Trump?

Obviously, I'm not Trump,

even though I have

the same hat that Trump wears.

Filmmaker:

Well, there are a million--

a million of those,

-and I've only seen one--

-Well, there are millions

of Qs, also.

(machine buzzing)

Jim Watkins:

This is my man cave.

Filmmaker:

So what goes down

in this room?

This is where it all happens.

I am Jim Watkins,

and I will dance on command.

I do lap dances for 50 bucks.

You want me to turn this off?

(filmmaker speaking)

You can hear this?

I can't hear this at all.

Filmmaker:

Um, so is this where you,

like, log into 8chan usually?

Jim Watkins:

I usually don't go to boards

that are not public.

'Cause you get there

and you get, like,

things you want to un-see.

Filmmaker:

But you don't have access

to the Q board?

What is the URL?

What is the

We-we can go to the Q board.

Filmmaker:

Now, the Q research board

is hidden.

And that means it wouldn't

show up on 8chan's main page.

You had to know

where to look.

You could be directed there

by a link from another site,

or type "Q research"

into the browser.

Q

Filmmaker:

Uh, research? Q research?

Research. Okay.

Filmmaker:

It's weird that, uh,

like, one of the most

popular things on 8chan

and you're, like

But how would I know

it's the most popular thing?

It's not listed.

Filmmaker:

Q has something like

2,500 posts at this point.

-Have you read them all?

-Filmmaker:

I read a lot of them.

Oh. Tell me about it,

and I'll tell you

what my opinion is.

Filmmaker:

One of the big ones is that

there's all these

sealed indictments.

Hillary and John McCain,

they're all arrested already

and wearing ankle bracelets.

Jim Watkins:

That's possible.

I think they have, like,

secret courts in America,

don't they?

Filmmaker:

November 11th was supposed

to be this big day.

Jim Watkins:

11-11.

That's, uh, 1-1-1-1.

It's one more one

if you count the one

in the 18.

But everything that Q has,

has said,

has come true in some

potential future.

And all of those

unlimited futures have,

or are happening.

Just you can only

experience one of them.

Filmmaker:

See? Now you are

starting to sound like Q.

(laughs)

Jim Watkins:

Obviously, if there's

so many people

reading this Q research,

I don't think

that this is a LARP.

It's too big for that.

But who it is,

and if he's actually an insider

at the White House,

that's up in the air.

Filmmaker:

Do you think it's possible that

your dad is part of Q?

Uh, it's impossible.

(laughs) He would have

blabbed about it already.

Interviewer:

He seems like he would be good

at keeping a secret.

Jim Watkins:

It's a big world, you know.

Maybe he's just some

overtired, overstressed,

middle S, GS-5

from the White House

that's like,

"I got an idea."

Filmmaker:

Q's a big fan of General Flynn,

-so probably someone related

to General Flynn--

-General Flynn?

He got burnt for no reason,

didn't he?

Poor guy.

You know, I, I found out

more about it today

than I actually

knew about it before.

I haven't been keeping up

on politics for a while.

'Cause I've been busy

working on, like,

important things.

I mean, he worked in the

military for a while, so

I believe they do stuff

that needs to be kept secret.

What is a Q-level clearance?

You know, I was in

the army 16 years

and I never had

a Q-level clearance.

I don't know what that is.

Q, if he is who he is, uh,

he would surely

know a lot about

the military, and

My dad knows a lot

about the military,

and probably, it's--

they're military

talking points. Maybe.

Jim Watkins:

When I was in the academy,

the commandant said,

"You're the most

civilianized m*therf*cker

I ever let graduate."

It's possible, I guess,

that he could be Q,

but I doubt it,

'cause he's, he's so busy

working on the pig farm,

and

Filmmaker:

Do you think it

would be dangerous

for Q to reveal himself?

Or herself?

Probably, yeah.

Has he done anything ill*gal?

Filmmaker:

You can definitively say, then,

that you are not a part of Q.

I am not a part of Q.

Don't arrest me.

(laughs softly)

Filmmaker:

How do you think

you differ from your father?

Uh, how do I differ?

Well, I don't

I'm not autistic

about pens, for one.

Filmmaker:

After spending

several days with Jim,

something came to mind.

Pen board usually

has like one user. Me.

Filmmaker:

Q uses a pen to confirm

its identity--

a $1,500 Montblanc

StarWalker pen

that supposedly belongs

to Donald Trump.

Q first introduced the pen

on December 12th of 2017.

When Q returns

after the power struggle

on January 5th,

what does Q use to confirm?

That same pen.

Why does Q choose a pen,

of all things,

to confirm its identity?

Jim Watkins:

Ooh, this is my hobby. Yeah.

This is what I do for fun.

That is from France.

So we'll let that sit

for a little while.

Filmmaker:

There a lot of

pen collectors out there?

Jim Watkins:

There are millions

of pen collectors out there.

I love this pen.

This is my favorite pen.

(video game-style

music playing)

♪

-(INTENSE MUSIC) ♪

-What are the parallels between

Q that you wrote about,

and QAnon?

SPEAKER: Secret messages,

shared drop by drop,

crumb by crumb.

What kind of person would read

this book and think,

"I want to be Q,

I want to be the villain"?

CULLEN HOBACK: In early 2019,

I got an anonymous tip,

that forced me to revisit

my investigation

into Jim and Ron Watkins.

Somebody's making claims that

Roger Stone

was subsidizing your site.

Uh that's false.

I don't know who Roger Stone is.

I do think there is

a possibility that Roger Stone

is deeply connected with Q.

HOBACK: Maybe Q really was

someone close to Trump.

I think that the people that are

8chan

are heavily involved with Q.

Most likely, Ronald Watkins

knows who Q is.

(MUSIC FADES) ♪