For me, drawing is definitely a way
of saying, "Look at this,
"what do you think of this?
"How does that make you feel?"
"Look at where that tree
sits on that hill."
Or, "look at the way that creature
fits into the landscape."
"Look at how it all works together,
all these lines."
The Boy, The Mole, The Fox and
The Horse... Has been on the best
seller's list for a frankly
ridiculous number of weeks.
It's just stunningly beautiful.
I found it really emotional,
I burst into tears
when I was reading the book.
This thing sold more than a million
copies and readers are feeling
a real special connection.
The way I did the book was in a dip
pen, so I'd dip it in ink.
And it's a thin nib, the harder you
press, the thicker it becomes.
I like the fact that it often
it's really imperfect
and it's permanent.
I like the risk, I think, and
the strength of it, the darkness
of it, just feels free and expressive.
This is the story of a book that's
touched readers around the world.
One of my new favourite books,
it's called The Boy, The Mole,
The Fox and the Horse by Charlie Mackesy.
How did a first time author create
a publishing phenomenon?
And how do you turn a book without
a story, as such, into a film?
"What do you think success is?"
asked the boy.
"To love," said the mole.
Charlie's book started out
as a series of sketches in 2018.
It was a couple of years
before the pandemic arrived.
I was doing loads of drawings
and putting them on Instagram
and people would emotionally respond.
And I got very stuck on the boy
and the mole and then obviously
the horse came along and the fox.
I looked forward to posting daily
and it was like measuring the pulse
of where people were, and, you know,
because sometimes on your own
it's quite hard.
It was all reciprocal because people
said they got so much from them
and I got so much from their comments.
So it was a really lovely thing.
And you could feel their energy.
I could feel their desire
for it to become something.
You know, social media
can be a really wonderful thing
sometimes, a great community.
The things that people were sharing
are potentially things
that they weren't necessarily
sharing in their own lives,
but he had created this
safe space through the works
that he was posting.
The mission was to
start positive conversations
around mental health,
around how we were feeling
and I had a real sense of urgency
that it was an important thing
that needed to happen.
Charlie's growing social media
following played an important part
in the success of the book.
There was a critical point for me
with social media because now it's,
you know, like, 1.5 million
people is a lot of people.
And, in a way, when it was like, you
know, not so many, you recognise
people and I could chat and say,
"I've posted a drawing."
And so everyone felt
like they were contributing
and were part of the journey
towards the book.
I was always worried that
I was over-posting or posting
too many of one thing.
I will always be really grateful
to everyone
on it because they helped me so much...
..in the development and processing
of everything that's in the book.
Everything.
I think the reason why Charlie's
work is relatable is because
it contains these universal truths.
Each pairing of words and picture
that he creates in the book,
they speak to us quite deeply
and they reveal these fundamental
ideas that we have about ourselves.
I think people really related
to the book during the pandemic
because we were all looking
for something to comfort us.
It was an unprecedented time to live
through and the kind of words
and the sentiments in Charlie's book
obviously struck a chord with people
and enabled them perhaps to
feel better about what was going on.
"The boy is full of questions
and the mole is greedy for cake.
"The fox is mainly silent and
wary because he's been hurt by life.
"The horse is the biggest
thing they've ever encountered
"and also the gentlest."
One of Charlie's friends
and collaborators is film-maker
Richard Curtis, who encouraged
him to write the book.
How old are you?
59. Nice.
Why is that nice?
You're just a bit younger than me.
Not much.
That is the strange thing
about friendship, is it needs
circumstances, doesn't it?
And the characters in your
book are thrown by a journey...
Yeah... together by chance.
And, as it were, we
knew each other for years
and then we ended up in the same village.
And that's, as it were, our journey.
And now we're together forever
because we're on that
particular road.
Remind me of the name of the book?
The Boy, The Mole, The Fox And The Horse.
It's just so hard to remember the order.
It is, but if you think of terms
of chronology,
it's the first the boy and then
the mole appears.
Then the fox and the horse. Everyone
gets it wrong, I don't really mind.
Doesn't matter, as long as they're
all mentioned.
I don't think they mind.
They don't exist.
What do you mean, they mind?
They're all just you.
That's true, that's true.
I do think they exist, though,
that's the problem.
But your obsessive iteration
of those things must have meant
that you were incredibly interested
in those particular relationships?
That that idea of someone who offers
you advice or someone who offers
you protection or someone
who stays distant?
I mean, why do you think
you landed on those four?
Because there were lots of other
characters, there's a penguin
and a polar bear, there are other
creatures on the edges.
But I always just came back
to those four because I think
they're very particular
and they're all very
different from each other.
In a funny way, they are both
who you are and what you need.
Very innocent, like the boy,
but you'd also love life
to be simpler and less painful. Yes.
And the mole is like a really
good friend that you need.
But then he's also, in some ways,
like you, he's full of wisdom
and he's funny and he pops up all the time.
I mean, I think they both are you
and are what you need.
Yeah, I think you're right, I think
they are what I need...
Definitely.
I remember talking to a friend
about what courage was,
and he was all for climbing mountains.
And I think that's a type of courage.
But I remember thinking, well,
the bravest thing I ever did
was when I was really struggling,
and I said, "I'm really struggling."
Charlie has been a best friend and
a brother since I was a teenager.
We met on a summer camp originally
and instantly found a kindred spirit
in Charlie, somebody who I think,
bit more of a misfit together.
I think the last few years
has been incredibly
tough on everybody.
There's no-one who hasn't
been affected by it, and I think
it's been a time of great loneliness
and a lot of anxiety
more than ever before and his book
has been a book of its time.
Seeing your best friend succeed
is a very beautiful thing, you know?
And truth is, it's a, as I say,
25-year overnight success.
You know, he's been inspiring and helping
and being that inspiration
to people for decades.
It actually makes me quite
emotional to think about it.
People just think he's, you know,
he's a writer or they're cartoons.
But actually his...
You look at some of
his beautiful, beautiful paintings
over many years and his sculptures,
they are stunning and they make
people cry when they see them
because they're always rooted
in love and redemption and holding
each other and connection.
I do really remember after my
dad died, when I was in my mid-20s,
and just really struggling at that time.
And I remember saying to him,
I said, "The weird thing is,
"is that people always
sort of think I'm strong.
"And the truth is I'm not and I'm
really struggling at the moment."
And he would often then, a day
or so later, send me little drawings
he would do, just encouraging stuff.
And I remember him doing one
along those lines,
saying you need help is brave.
One of the things that struck me
about Charlie's work on Instagram
is the instant emotional
connection it had with people.
It certainly, for me, I found
it a very moving experience.
Looking at his work on Instagram
and thinking,
"My gosh, there could be something
here, there could be something
"that we could collect these images
into these artworks, into a book
"and introduce him to even
more people."
The process of making the book began
with us, considering how the book
should look and feel in someone's hand.
And it was really important to
Charlie that the book reflected
how the original artworks looked.
I don't think any of
us at the beginning knew
what it would really entail.
I got a call from Laura from Penguin
and she said,
"There's a guy called Charlie,
he's produced all of this work.
"He's just had an exhibition,
can you go and meet him?"
I popped over one morning.
It's freezing cold, a February morning,
and we sat out in the
garden and we had this really
wonderful morning together.
I had meetings for the rest of the
day all lined up and ended
up cancelling all of them
and just ended up spending time
just talking about everything.
And then Charlie said,
"Oh, I'll just go and get
"what I've got for the book."
So he went into the house and
he wheeled out this wheelbarrow,
which is full of these drawings,
and I thought, "Maybe it's not
"going to be a week's work."
He started talking about the book
and his relationship
with his community online
and what it was all about.
At that point, Charlie
already had a fairly significant
following on social media,
so his work was almost being
demanded by that community.
We sat in the garden.
Colm, we kind of agreed we'd try
and make a treasure
that was not about selling anything,
but was going to help people, right?
Yeah. Colm just said, "Oh, we'll
put it together in a day or so."
And then, so began this journey
where we just slowly, over time,
arranged the book.
It was a long journey, and because,
you know, essentially,
there was hundreds and probably
thousands of drawings.
It was a process of elimination
more than it was construction.
It was like pulling things
out, saying, that's not relevant,
that's not relevant, until
eventually we were left with
the bare essentials.
Yeah, we spoke about, like, creating
like an object, something
that has this energy to it,
no matter how much it's reproduced.
And I think all of that energy
comes from, like, putting
all of this work into it, like,
you know, it was kind of like
lots and lots of time and patience.
See, all these, these are all,
like, all these pads
are full of mistakes.
That's the thing, you're looking
at basically a sea of error.
And out of which, if you keep going,
you'll find something that's worth
keeping, but it's mainly error.
So what I started with deeply was,
out of all these drawings trying
to find, choose them that feel
they have meaning,
that they take you on a journey.
"What is that over there?"
asked the boy.
"It's the wild," said the mole.
"Don't fear it."
I was brought up in Northumberland
and lived in the landscape.
As a boy, I used to stand on a hill
and look at the horizon a quarter,
or half a mile away and say,
if I get to that wood,
I wouldn't be able to see myself
from here, I'd be part of it.
So I'd pick a spot in the distance
and then walk to it and then sit
down and think, "I'm now invisible
to where I was before."
I love the idea that you can
be immersed in something so much
bigger than yourself.
For the book, part of why I've loved
doing drawings of landscape
is just to share the love of it, really.
And animals and nature generally.
Because I think, you know, there's
part of us deeply trusts it.
Animals are such a great medium,
really, for storytelling.
Children can relate to them.
You know, I think children
are natural animal lovers.
There's a special relationship
between children and animals.
They have this very direct
connection, very responsive
connection to animals
and the natural world.
I think all books that contain words
and pictures are relatable
to a wide audience.
Even very young children
can look at pictures
and understand them.
I really like the expressiveness
of Charlie's drawing.
It makes us sort of
feel that it's effortless,
and actually, there's a
whole lifetime of draughtsmanship
has gone into the way those drawings
unfold and the many times
that he's drawn those
characters and, you know, this sort
of fluidity to them.
Books like Charlie's are really rare
because he has the ability
to cross over genres.
He has the ability to
speak to adults and children,
people of all ages.
The book might bring to
mind AA Milne's Winnie-the-Pooh
or Raymond Briggs' Snowman.
Winnie-the-Pooh came at a very similar time
in that it was post-w*r
and it was a very hard
time for everybody.
And Winnie-the-Pooh brought
the similar kind of comfort and joy.
Our home is full of so many
little drawings of Charlie's
from over the years.
You know, we struggle with anxiety
or stress or frustration or anger
or whatever it is, I think Charlie's
drawings hit straight
to the heart of actually
saying, "It's OK, that's OK."
You know, "Just... Just be
honest, it's OK."
And as soon as you kind of let
that guard down, of course,
you create connections with people,
whether it's around
you or your readers or whatever,
and where there's connections,
there's always strength.
"Always remember, you matter.
"You're important and you're loved,
and you bring to this world,
"things no-one else can."
The wisdom in Charlie's book has its roots
in his own life experiences.
My parents were both so
lovely and really wanted me to get
the best education.
I think at boarding school it was tougher.
You competed far harder and it was
an all boys school, a monoculture.
And more Darwinian, you tended
to bury your thoughts in yourself.
When you're away from home,
it's harder to process stuff
and you get used to internalising things.
At some point I thought I'd really
love to just be at home and go
to the state school.
When I was at the state
school, there was some lads
who were just openly vulnerable
and didn't need to compete so much.
Marie, who was in biology next to me,
I remember her loving
the vulnerability of Mark.
I was like, "He's not showing off",
and she was like,
"Oh, that's lovely, isn't it?
He's so honest.
"He's lovely, isn't he?"
I thought...
..wow.
She liked the fact that he said
that he struggled.
I think, for me, I just discovered
a whole world of honesty
and communicating emotion.
You know, there's one drawing that's
not in the book, where the boy
says, you know, "I haven't really
achieved anything, have I?
"What have I actually done?"
The horse says,
"Well, you've been a friend,
"and that's a spectacular thing."
Jamie, I met at school, he was hilarious.
And we sort of got each other.
You know, we're kind of semi-feral,
rural types.
We just used to muck about
on the farm and just eat a lot
of toast and get covered in mud.
Talk about girls and...
..fail at having girlfriends
and we just understood each other
and we made each other laugh
and he thought I was ridiculous.
And you know how boys are, you know,
friends are, you just share
the same connections.
We were just really good friends, you know?
I always remember he had this wreck
of a car and I didn't drive
and he was always giving me lifts
and we used to listen
to Tom Petty loudly.
Yeah, and just go to the local pub
and it was a really good
rural farming community there.
And Jamie and I were
sort of part of it, really.
We didn't have big dreams.
We just enjoyed existing.
So, one day, I just got a call
from a mutual friend saying...
I was away at the time, actually,
I was up north seeing my family.
And he just said, "I just got
some news."
I said, "Oh, yeah?"
"Jamie was k*lled today."
Yeah, came off the road and the
car burst into flames.
The funeral was this tiny
little church on a hill with loads
of people standing outside.
And I remember one of the guys
saying, "Big boys don't cry."
And still hadn't connected with my emotion.
There was a man that Jamie
and I had worked with.
He was a big, strong...
..man.
And he came up to me.
He saw me, he walked straight over to me.
He had tears hanging in the
bottom of the eyelids.
He looked straight in my eyes
and pressed his head against...
He leant and he goes...
"What a bloody waste, Charlie."
"What a bloody waste."
And it was like someone...
..had...
..pulled the ripcord or something
in my inner being.
It was an extraordinary
experience to suddenly feel...
..everything.
Like, they are red lines in life,
but nothing's ever the same again
and that was one of my red lines,
Jamie dying,
and wondering why and how and...
I remember it was like a tumble
dryer spinning, spinning, spinning.
I went mad for months.
One day you feel nothing and feel
bad for not feeling anything.
Oh, he's died.
And the next day, you
feel angry or very, very low.
I think the whole idea of grief
is unexplored
or under-explored, generally.
That loss, even though it's agony,
can awaken in you
something beautiful.
It was a big thing for me, both deep
grief and loss
and also this kind of liberation
from a certain way of thinking.
His death definitely catalysed me
into daring to make
a living from drawing.
Because what have you got to
lose, you know?
Really?
I began drawing when I was about 19.
I went to London because my sister
had a flat there and she said,
"Oh, just come and sleep
on the floor."
So I did.
London in the '80s was very
different to how it is now.
It was lighter and sillier and more playful
and I was fascinated by it.
I liked the energy -
you could see in Technicolor.
The colours were turned up or it was
intense and you could feel so much.
And I liked the massive
variation in cultures
and, coming from Northumberland,
I'd never seen that before.
I was quite drawn to that.
London for me was so much opportunity.
I did loads of jobs - I was a waiter,
I worked on building sites,
I was a hospital porter.
I did anything.
I remember the day I started
drawing, I got The Standard
newspaper and I'd been looking
in the back pages because there
were jobs there and I couldn't
really see anything.
And there was a messy table.
And on that table was a pen.
It was russety red, like a maroon colour.
And I looked at it and I remember
just being a bit intrigued by it.
So I picked it up and unscrewed
the lid and there's a very thin nib.
And I remember doing a few dots
of ink on an envelope with it,
thinking, "Wow, this is a very fine
nib, bet you could get some
"detail with this."
And it was a kind of miracle to me
the ink could even get down
such a thin nib.
So I took the pen and the paper and
wandered across the road and went
into the park and sat under a tree.
I started drawing.
The freedom I felt when I started
making the marks
was like a tiny spark to a flame.
There was something here that was
intriguing and intoxicating.
I remember drawing some houses
with trees in front and loving
the shapes of the
trees with the architecture.
I could think when I did it.
Like the process of making art helps
you feel and think
and get things in order.
We have these moments in our lives,
don't we?
We have these little things
that they come and they grow
like mustard seed,
like tiny and then grow.
And that just happened to be it.
It was an amazing journey, but
I couldn't... I couldn't seem...
..to stop drawing.
And, you know, I remember
someone coming up to me saying,
you know, "Is that for sale?"
And I was like, "Are you...?"
I didn't think they were sellable
at the time.
I started selling them,
started sitting on streets.
And for four years, I sat on the
streets of London, drawing it
and selling straight to strangers.
Even in February, I remember freezing,
I kept doing the drawings
and that's how I made a living.
Then, of course, a gallery guy walks
past eventually,
stops and he looked
at the drawings and said,
"Do you want to
come and talk to us?"
I was amazed that a gallery
would be interested in me.
I said, "OK". Before I knew it,
I was with a gallery.
The gallery took me to New York.
When I was there I went to
New Orleans and stayed there
and ended up drawing so much
in those clubs.
I liked their energy and they
felt very free.
How long did you spend there?
A few months.
It's so hot.
Just sit there and just drip sweat
onto the paper, you know,
sit at the back of these clubs.
This Preservation Hall, I remember,
in New Orleans was amazing.
The line is a bit of a blur,
but just generally splodging
along, renting studios, doing
shows with galleries.
I've always loved making people
laugh, so that was always...
..like part of me was...
You know, for my mum, my family,
my mother's room is just
wall-to-wall ridiculous cartoons.
When I was little, I remember
someone saying, "Oh, I can't get
"over your new house, Jane," or whatever.
And I'm thinking,
"Are you trying to climb it?
"What do you mean, you can't
get over it?"
And so I had this kind of literal,
literal brain where people said
to me, and actually, you know,
"Jeffrey's watching the cricket,"
and I see Jeffrey on his hands
and he's looking at this little
insect in the grass.
And so the cartoons have
always been in the back of my head,
and largely just to make people smile.
Never done anything with them, really.
"How do they look so together
and perfect?" asked the boy.
"There's a lot of frantic
paddling going on beneath,"
said the horse.
People see the book or the finished
drawings, but they don't see
the thousands, actually tens
of thousands of drawings
that didn't work.
Basically, all we're trying to do
is create something that makes,
that completely makes visual
sense and the words
work with the image.
This one here, "The great
illusion," said the mole,
"is that life should be perfect."
I had that, I drew that and I put
it... It was behind me.
The ink takes, like, 25 minutes to dry.
And so you can't just put
a drawing on top of a drawing
because it just smudges.
So I would arrange more around here.
And then I heard Barney
and he just walked right
across it and taken the ink straight
across, right across those words.
Those are his paw marks there.
Erm, "The great illusion
is that life should be perfect."
And Barney was making the point
really that this drawing therefore
should not be perfect.
Most of the time, it was like taking
lots of different versions
of this drawing and putting it together.
So we'd say, "Oh, the mole looks
big in this,
"or the mole looks better
in this drawing."
So we might take three or four
different drawings... Yeah.
..and put them together.
That's trying to kind of get
a balance of how do you perfect
a messy drawing, essentially?
Yeah, exactly.
The reason why I think the ink
was important
is because it's very simple.
So we made complex things both
visually simple,
and the words as bare as possible,
as naked as possible.
I think we're like sponges,
you know, and I think we absorb
everything around us and everything
is telling us stuff.
And, in the end, you know,
you then produce something
in response to all of that information.
All the empathy and anger and
frustration and loss and grief
all went into making a cake...
..that we cooked... Yeah.
Erm, which is wholly inadequate
and only scratches
the flipping surface of everything.
But it was enough of a
little scratch, I think, to help
some people somewhere.
I think if art can repeat something
to someone over and over again
by being in a permanent place
where it can permanently speak
to you over and over again, say,
"You are loved, you are held,
"you are known," I think as
symbols, they can feed your...
..your existence.
One of our greatest freedoms
is how we react to things.
I think we all liberate each other.
The more vulnerable we can be,
the more we set each other free.
And the characters, each one sets
the other free, really,
by being fragile.
On one level, nothing's really
changed because
I'm in the same place
as I've been for a long time
and see, you know, four old ladies,
I mean, I see my family every
day, my lovely mum, my brilliant
family who look
after her and they know me really well.
And whether you're doing
well or not, it doesn't
really make any difference, you know?
They just sort of love you wherever
you are.
And I think that's probably
more successful.
That's success to me.
Charlie created the book
using a dip pen and ink.
Adapting his work into an animated
short film presents new challenges.
If someone, when I was 19, said
to me, "You're going to do a book
"about a boy, a mole a fox and a horse,"
I'd have found that bizarre.
If the same person had said, "Yeah,
you going to make a film of it",
I would have been a little bit sceptical.
Obviously, I'm not a film-maker,
so I learned on the hoof.
I just did a book, you know,
we were all clueless to begin with,
how are we going to do this?
Making a film out of some drawings I made.
So I think, when you started to put
it together, I think I helped
a little bit just moving some
sections around in terms
of beginning, middle and end.
You'd created a book and now it had
to have an even stronger narrative.
Is that what you felt at the start
with working on the film?
Yeah, I mean, doing all the storyboards,
I remember having big boards
and you came in and saw them all
and it was a sea of things.
And I, as usual, was quite
defensive about things.
About making changes.
Yeah, because, with the book, a lot
of people have said, "It needs
"more of a story." I said,
"No, it doesn't, the story
"is in the conversation,
it doesn't need to have this
"over developed narrative."
I just want them to be chatting and honest.
And you said, "Yeah, but the
film is different.
"You can't just have them
wandering around chatting.
"They need... They need
purpose and..."
"Oh, yeah, yeah, you've made
films, haven't you?"
I seem to remember my major
contribution was by suggesting
that the first sentence of the film,
did I say,
"So what's the motivation?"
No, you said, "What's the boy's issue?
Like,
"What, what's the problem here?"
And the problem was, the main
problem was that he was lost.
Yeah, so I think we put
that in right at the top. Yeah.
And then, of course, if he's lost,
then their journey
is more directional.
Yeah, exactly.
Because they've got to head for home.
And then, the end is more
decisive in this now, isn't it?
They get somewhere and then...
They all have their own
arcs in the film, you know,
and they all arrive... They move
from one place to another internally
and as creatures, as personalities.
And then, I think you worked quite
hard on the end, didn't you?
I think the end is basically
they were all realising that...
That the home they're looking for is them,
that they are home.
I think that's fairly simple.
It's a classic structure, the idea
that you're changed by the journey.
The journey, yeah. You know, that
you set off thinking
you're aiming for one thing and then
you get to the end. Yeah.
We began in October 2020.
So that's when the production
really kicked off and no-one
could meet or, you know,
actually do anything normal.
And we were in the throes
of our second lockdown.
It was clear right from the start
that to do justice to Charlie's
work, we needed to find the finest
artists we could find
all around the world.
Everyone was working from home,
but through the course of making
the film over the last two years
we've had over 130 artists working
on it from over 15 different
countries, all working on
different time zones.
We spent a lot of time talking
about the personalities of each
character, how they would react
in certain situations,
how they would react to each other
and what kind of mannerisms
they might have, depending
on their personality.
For example, the boy, you know,
never just sits still,
because little boys rarely do sit still.
It's uncharted territory.
But that's incredibly, you know,
that's incredibly exciting.
One of the producers of Charlie's
film is JJ Abrams, the film-maker
behind Super 8, Star Wars
and Mission Impossible III.
It's amazing reading the script.
It immediately translates,
even in an animated script form,
to that feeling you have
when you read the book.
And it just, it was so alive, so quickly.
One of the things that I thought
was wonderful and it was the idea
that the boy declares up
front, "I'm lost."
Right, right. I just think it is
a brilliant brushstroke.
I just think that, by doing that,
that little thing of, "I'm lost,"
it gives you purchase as a viewer to
say, "I know why I'm here."
But my biggest fear, and I know
we'll avoid this, but I just want
to say it so I know I will have said it,
is to have something
that is a beautiful object
to look at and to experience
and yet, somehow, not allow the audience
to be inside of it and to be a character.
The difference in the film
and the book is that the book
can be taken at a pace the reader
wants it to be taken at.
And the film is for us to decide the pace.
And I think that's a really big
thing, is working out,
you know, how it's paced and where
we allow space just to... Yes.
..absorb or allow things to land
emotionally before we move on.
Yeah, exactly right.
Those are big decisions.
The book is the characters
meandering through the landscape...
..and they're just chatting.
People say, "There's no story."
Well, the story is their conversation.
So I've never felt anything dramatic
should happen,
or if they even needed a real
purpose except for to communicate.
And I think that's the central
issue of the human being,
is we have to find ways of communicating
who we are and how we feel.
You're basically the mole,
aren't you, Barney?
You are the mole.
Did it make you very happy
when you would think
of another bit of wisdom?
It's just like me thinking
of a joke, did you think,
"Oh, yes, that's a bit of wisdom?"
I don't think I ever really saw
it as wisdom.
I think I... What I really loved
was if I felt something
was working, posted it on
Instagram, you know,
you will get people writing to you,
telling you a lot of stories,
some of which are really hard
to read. Yeah.
And I've, I have read a lot now
and I've kept a lot of the emails
that were the most moving.
But some of them are very hard
to read about loss and death.
And out of the blue, I just
suddenly started...
..crying and then really weeping.
I think, "Why am... Why am I...?
Where is this coming from?"
And I sort of realised later
that it was probably stored
up emotion of reading so many
people's lives.
You are offering consolation.
The book has an enormous,
is, in a way, kind.
You know, it has a consolation in
there and you would expect people
to take that consolation at its word.
The book is popular with people
of all ages and children
in particular feel a special
connection to the four friends.
Sometimes a school has sent me
drawings and pictures and a play
they'd written or whatever it is,
or they send videos of plays
they've made or...
And that just breaks my heart.
The character of the book, I just...
Because obviously they
see things in the four that I don't.
They've taken the characters,
and, you know, put their own
emotions into them.
And what more can you ask for than that?
You've started, you've licensed
other people to feel or say or speak
or have a voice or draw or
make something together or alone.
To have had the privilege of being
that kind of catalyst...
..to people saying how they
really feel.
If at first you don't succeed,
have some cake.
LAUGHTER
I see... Watch this, watch this.
I see.
"Does it work?" the boy asked.
"Every time."
This book is just filled with such
whimsy and magic and wonder.
"Sometimes," said the horse.
"Sometimes what?"
asked the boy.
"Sometimes just getting up and carrying on
"is brave and magnificent."
Oh, the emails I get from people
saying "Thank you, but can we
"have this or can you do that?
"Can you write to my son who's
dying?" or all those things,
an incredible privilege,
but they, you know,
the reservoir empties a little bit.
And I was very bad initially
at knowing how to manage
that, really bad, and got worn out
very fast and then got grumpy...
..and overwhelmed.
I mean, you know, I'm completely
and utterly out of my depth with it.
For me, it's not just a drawing,
it's what the drawing can do.
Don't stop making your messy drawings.
Just keep your mind alive to, you
know, everything that you...
I... Anyway.
And, you know, I've struggled
a little in my life with things,
like, I get anxious a lot,
I get low quite a lot.
Well, I think we're worshipful
creatures, I think we like idols.
When we do it to a person
and put them on a plinth,
I think, particularly in this
country, we were very good
at putting someone on the plinth
and then, and then once
they're on the plinth, we kind
of sh**t them down.
The year we were making it,
it was a very difficult time.
Making the book was extremely hard.
I used to have terrible panic attacks.
There have been times when,
you know, I've been interviewed
and I remember hiding in the loo.
My heart was racing, I was very panicked.
It makes my head blur and I think,
"What am I going to say
"and why am I here?
"What happens if I say something
terrible or don't say
"the right thing, or don't do what
they want me to do, or...?"
I find that difficult,
I find being exposed difficult.
My brain just spins with the idea
of sitting in front of a camera.
And I'm doing it because I think
it, you know, it's important
to try to say things that you think
are important, whoever you are,
however scary it is.
I think people have been brave
with me, you know.
They've been really courageous
in what they've told me
of their lives, like heart...
I can...
Being human and being able to put
yourself in someone else's
shoes, whether it's for five minutes
or an hour or whatever it is,
is an incredible thing.
And if someone communicates a story
to you in a way
that helps you do that, it's gold dust.
I think stories are crucial.
"We have a long way to go," sighed the boy.
"Yes, but look how far we've come,"
said the horse.
I think about, often, the last two
years of what we've all
been through and the emails I've got
from people and just how much
weaker they've felt,
how much they've struggled.
And I thought, "I really want
to make a film that...
"..that identifies with that,
that meets people in that somehow."
So much beauty we need to look after.
Yes, so much.
Ooh!
My little book is quite suggestive.
It's not complete in its study
of the faces.
You suggest what the boy looks like.
And, similarly, with the
fox and the horse and the mole.
And I was really scared of changing
them or making them, adapting them
in a way that wasn't true to them.
The journey of the film
really has been discovering
more about them and how they move.
Because how you move shows a bit
more of your character.
We studied foxes and the horse,
we had a live reference
and studied him.
And the boy, we often used
references of children
of the people I work with.
The animated film is slowly coming to life.
Morning. Hi, Charlie.
Good morning. Morning, Charlie.
Hello.
How are you doing?
All right, how are you?
What's happening, what have you got today?
Kick off.
I think you believe in me more than I do.
You'll catch up.
The horse's eye there, Charlie.
That's floored me, that has floored me.
The timing of the hymn of the
robin is just too much for me.
It's just...
Hang on, guys.
There's a robin wrapped up over there.
It died when I hit it in the car.
I got out of the car and put
it on my lap that night talking
to some friends, one of whom is
writing music for the film.
And I started humming this tune.
It was just all my emotion came out.
I know it sounds ridiculous,
really, but I just, I can't
bear k*lling songbirds.
And, erm...
..the music you just heard
there is the...
We wrote the... We based
the soundtrack really on...
..the hymn for the robin,
which is the tune we came up with
and the phone call straight after.
Can we play that one more time,
the hymn for the robin there?
Yeah... Oops.
I think you believe in me
more than I do.
You'll catch up.
Life is difficult.
But you are loved.
The mole was always a tricky
one because the mole
is a derivation of a mole,
I think, it's my own mole.
So we haven't got any...
There was no, like,
"Oh, that's how they move."
Because a real mole doesn't look
like the mole so much.
If he's standing up and he's got
these big, round Oreo
biscuit-like hands, you know...
Does he...? Does he use his feet?
Does he...?
How's it going to happen?
I watched a lot of David
Attenborough stuff and I was
watching really late one night
and there was this penguin
just shuffling and it was moving like it...
..45 degree turns so the body
sways and I was like...
"..Oh, that's the mole."
What are you doing here?
I'm lost.
Oh, dear, well, that's no good.
So, how...?
How did you get here?
Well, hello.
Hello, who?
Hello, cake.
Tom Holland is the mole.
He's so hilarious, he's such
a brilliant actor.
He's a legend, really, and he's
the perfect mole.
"What do you think is the biggest
"waste of time?"
"Comparing yourself to others,"
said the mole.
That leapt out at me as an idea
when I read it, because...
..I personally have found
it to be a chronic problem
in my life.
People have tried to persuade me
to stop doing that myself.
Because it's the source of a lot
of pointless unhappiness.
Anyway, so we must stop.
And that was on, yes, page ten
or something,
so I was immediately sucked in.
I always, in my head, wanted the boy
to have a soft Scottish accent.
You know, I'm lost, that long lost.
Ah, man.
And when I heard
his voice in the audition...
His voice...
I knew instantly that it should be him.
How fast can you run?
Well, I wouldn't say
I was a natural athlete.
I think my favourite character
is the mole, I think,
because he's quite playful
and he kind of brings
the whole group to life.
The fox is quite an outsider, but
he's been welcomed into the group
and he feels at home there.
The horse is very, erm...
He's very wise, but he
also has some insecurities
that the group help him kind
of express his real feelings.
And I think the boy's quite
adventurous, but he still needs
the rest of the group to help him
with his confidence
to finish his journey that he's been on.
It just seemed like one of those
very special opportunities
to do, to be part of some magical
little film that might
be eternally on at Christmas-time.
And then Idris Elba, well, I mean,
you know, legend, really.
He did the fox so well
and the fox's arc, you know,
being dangerous, then coming through
to having the k*ller lines.
You are loved.
And important.
And you bring to this world
things that no-one else can.
So hold on.
We went through a few different people
who were going to do the horse
and I'd always loved Gabriel Byrne.
And I wrote him a letter
and we had a phone conversation.
He said, "Charlie, I am the horse."
"I have the book."
I was like, "What?!"
Yeah, so that was them,
you know, we had our four.
It took us just under two years
to complete the film,
from the day that we started
developing the script
to the day we were able to send it off.
Without a doubt, this has been
the most challenging production
that I think any of us have worked on.
And most of that was driven
by the fact that our collective
ambitions for the film
were so incredibly high.
One of the challenges was just
getting used to the idea of seeing
the characters up close and seeing
some different angles
or having camera moves.
We did lots of kind of storyboarding
and shifting around and changing
angles and just getting
something that feels right.
In key moments, key lines from the
book, we actually do mirror
the same viewpoint.
The mole asks the boy, "What do
you want to be when you grow up?"
And the boy kind of thinks
about it and answers, "Kind."
And then you kind of move through them.
And that was shot just from the same
view behind the characters,
sat on that branch so that anyone
who feels connected to the book
also connects to those moments in the film.
Thank you.
"I've discovered something better
than cake," said the mole.
"No, you haven't," said the boy.
"I have."
"What is it?"
"A hug... It lasts longer."
Where do the hugs come from?
I've always loved the idea of redemption.
I've loved the idea of forgiveness,
I've loved the idea of coming home.
I love the feeling of being held.
I think humans, I think everybody
really wants to feel
like they're loved and known and
held and understood and accepted.
So I was very drawn to making
images that make people
feel that viscerally.
Like, I think,
"Oh, it can heal you."
You can feel something and see
something and it can have
a physical effect on you.
And to make images that help people
feel hope or understood,
or not alone or held or loved
or... I don't know.
It's just this whole thing that
we thirst for,
but can't put our fingers on.
"Just take this step."
"The horizon will look
after itself."
The film's coming to an end,
which is quite strange.
We're just finishing the music.
The BBC Orchestra are recording it and...
I just feel it's quite surreal.
All this sound and beauty
that's being recorded has come
from tiny places.
Tiny conversations, events.
I will die...
..relieved we've done it,
and pleased.
But I still know that I'm scruffy
Charlie, who wanders round
and doesn't wash his clothes
properly, and when I get the chance
to feel and really think about
what's gone on with it,
I just feel this deep
sense of gratitude and pleasure.
This is Charlie Mackesy,
who's the author and illustrator.
Thank you so much.
That's lovely.
That's... What do you think?
No, no, that's wrong.
A normal three, and...
Whoa-h*-h*!
I think when the boy says,
"I'm lost," in the film,
I think that's definitely how
I felt, a bit.
I think I've always felt slightly lost.
I think maybe all of us do,
I think, you know,
we're all looking for home in some way
and the journey, you know,
so the whole idea of the film
is, that is their journey.
Charlie is a master communicator
and his success was never
just going to be quite good.
It was always going to be off
the scale and out of this world.
And, you know, his book now has been
three years in the top ten.
It's broken all the records.
It's just amazing seeing it now,
seeing millions and millions
of people around the world kind
of get it and be able to share
a little bit of that.
I remember saying to them,
"I don't care if this is a good
"or a bad film, I don't give a damn.
"I just want it, to someone, to feel
something that makes them feel...
"..hopeful or better or..."
So, ultimately, if someone sees
it and is moved and it changes
how they see themselves
for good or their existence,
to me, that's a good film.
APPLAUSE
I love the idea of the natural
landscape being
a metaphor for something.
Pain being a glacier
moving through you, carving
out deep valleys.
If the characters have an arc...
..I have an arc and I think it
takes a lifetime to work out
what you really want to say,
at least it has for me.
I think tiny things can lead to big things.
The tiniest act of kindness
can save a life.
It was never in my sights that we
were awarded an Oscar for the film.
It's very surreal.
At the actual ceremony
I hid in the loo a couple of times!
Sometimes I get overwhelmed by things
and it is easier to recoup and regroup
and collect myself just in a
little bit of space in the loo
just for a minute.
I actually remember
going in and just writing
"We just won an Oscar" and posted it.
I didn't prepare a speech because
I was so sure we wouldn't win
and after I'd made the speech
I regretted not mentioning
so many people -
Peter and Cara and all the team
and 120 animators, my family,
friends, people on Instagram,
everybody who contributed
to the thinking and the direction
of the characters in the film.
I'm just so elated for everyone
and the Oscar is for all of us,
so thank you.
Thanks for being part of it.
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