[SOFT PIANO MUSIC PLAYS]
[JON NARRATING] Behind every great
work of art is a story.
The art we create and share
with the world is personal, vulnerable,
and it evolves with us.
Some art wounds, some unsettles.
Some stares into the abyss of humanity
and refuses to look away.
And it is in that space
that we find grimdark art.
Grimdark art doesn't comfort,
it confronts.
A rejection of sanitized fantasies
and romantic illusions,
it is art for a world
that has lost its innocence.
Inspired not by fairy tales,
but by the trenches of w*r,
and the ruins of empires long forgotten.
But why grimdark?
Art this bleak,
this violent and amoral
could be easy to dismiss as
pessimistic or even juvenile.
But that would miss the point.
So little of its history
is known to the world.
Its origins stretch far beyond fiction.
The artists, authors, designers,
composers, and craftspeople
who have made
this genre their home
all have a story for how they found
and fell in love with grimdark.
Mine starts with a phone call.
[FADES TO
DARK RISING SYNTH MUSIC]
- [JON YAWNING]
- [MUSIC FADES ]
- ERIC: What's up, Jon?
- Hey, what's up buddy?
Um how are you doing?
sh*t, dude I'm doing alright.
What are you up to?
Uh, I-I'm good. I, um
Sorry to bug you,
but I'm calling to ask your advice.
My son's birthday is coming up.
He's turning 11.
He's super into Dungeons and Dragons
type stuff,
but, man, dude, I just
I don't have the time or
patience or the skill on
knowing how to be a dungeon master,
or how to help him with that.
It's a little bit overwhelming,
but he's really into
you know, battles,
and warriors, and creatures,
and gnarly folk like that.
I know you're
into that sort of thing.
I know you're pretty nerdy, um
And so I, uh you know,
take this the right way.
Do you have any thoughts
on, like, the kind of
like, a starter game or something,
that would be fun for him,
that I can also play
with him and get into as well?
Yeah, I've got some recommendations,
but I think you gotta see them.
In fact, I'm headed down
to the game store today
and you should come with me.
Some guys are getting together
to play some games,
and you can see it for yourselves.
- Ah.
- There's a lot to see.
One of those kind of game stores
that has an annex to the side
that is filled with
pizza and weird smells.
Okay. All right.
Send me the details, um,
and I'll be on over.
- Let's do it. Okay, see ya, bud.
- All right, see ya.
- [DOOR CHIMES]
- ERIC: Dude what's up, man?
- Is this the place?
- This is the place.
Check it out.
All right, let's go over here.
I'm going to show you around.
JON:
This looks like the place, yes.
- Oh, man.
- MAN: Oh, yeah.
JON:
I'm immediately shriveled up.
[JON] Eric is the guy I go to
when I need help with
nerdy stuff like this.
- What is this?
- [DISTANT DOOR CHIMES]
Base cards. Oh. You can get
just the base cards.
- This is it, man. Dominion.
- Dominion's good.
- So you have played it?
- Yeah. Yeah. It's quality.
[CHILL ELECTRONIC MUSIC PLAYS]
JON: You can have fun learning
how to play a new game,
and then you're done,
and then,
I have a number of games
at home where it's like okay,
we sat down,
it took a while to figure out,
and then if you don't play it like
every time, then it's just like
it's like a one-time play, so
that's a problem with
a lot of these games.
There's probably cooler
This is more like
a board game.
Those are more like
tabletop w*r games.
JON: Well, what do you mean?
What is a tabletop w*r game?
CODY: A lot of people hear
these terms thrown around,
tabletop game,
tabletop w*r game,
tabletop skirmish game
and a board game.
The point of a board game
is to keep cost very low,
and the focus is on
the game itself.
A board game usually is not considered
a hobby that you do,
in addition to the game that you play.
It is a completely insular
and fully packaged experience.
Everything that you need to play
that board game is within that box.
With a tabletop w*r game,
people are looking for
an experience
that's a little bit deeper.
Most tabletop w*r games
and skirmish games
are based on w*r and combat.
ERIC: If your son
likes D&D, Jon,
maybe something like a tabletop
skirmish game would get him excited.
[FADES TO
SOFT SYNTH MUSIC]
I actually know some guys here
that would be able to
explain a lot better than that.
All right, show me the way.
[JON] Eric introduced me
to his friend Bill Ford,
to help explain
what a w*r game is.
JON: What are we looking at?
So this is a board, uh, with miniatures
for a game called Mordheim.
And it's kind of
a skirmish based game,
where you have little groups
of a handful of models each,
and then you
take turns back and forth,
rolling dice, sh**ting weapons,
taking models out of action,
and removing them from the board,
in order to win a game.
Okay, so instead of
controlling one character,
like in D&D, and like
your traditional game,
you're in charge of controlling
like, a battalion, an army.
- Yeah, kinda, just on a smaller scale.
- On a smaller scale, okay.
But if you want to
go bigger, you can,
and you can actually collect
entire armies of these.
I can't even imagine
controlling a whole army.
I have no ounce of
Napoleonic-ness in me.
That's a weird reference,
but you get what I mean.
What draws the audience into
this kind of game playing?
BILL: So, I think
it's a few things.
I think it's accessibility.
So like rather than going in
and buying hundreds of models, and being
overwhelmed with the rules like that,
it's really easy for people to
pick up a handful of miniatures,
paint them to how they want,
and then tell narrative stories
the way that they want to.
Kinda like in D&D.
- They don't come painted like this?
- No, they don't.
- Can I pick this up?
- For sure.
- They do not come painted?
- No.
So they come in boxes, like
kinda what we see behind us.
And then you have to like,
clip them out, glue them together,
sometimes you can sculpt additional details
with like, putties and stuff like that,
much like what these are.
[UPBEAT SYNTH MUSIC PLAYS]
JON: It's model building.
You're getting down
you're putting this there,
you're gluing stuff together,
you're painting.
Well, that takes up your time.
Where does the gameplay come in?
So then, once you've done all of that,
you then come in
and you can play
these smaller skirmish games,
depending on what rule system
that you want to use,
or you can even
make up your own.
And then usually
for events like this,
that's a lot of people coming in for
a very short amount of time.
You want to keep them
kind of small scale anyway,
so that way they get more games in,
and have more time to kinda mingle, and talk
Small scale meaning like,
how long is a typical game?
For like, some skirmish games,
they'll take maybe an hour, hour and a half.
- Okay.
- Yeah. Sometimes two,
- if you have more players.
- Yeah, yeah.
Um, if I have a good
rainy Saturday,
I can, you know,
pull something like this out.
But then I have to
I get to work
Can you buy boards like this, or?
- [BILL CHUCKLES] So
- I'm a really afraid of this answer.
- BILL: Yeah, so you can't.
- No, you can't.
Now, I'm sure you
could commission people.
- Oh yeah. That's Okay so,
- Yeah, for sure.
if you haven't spent enough
money already on all the figures,
you got to go ask some other,
you know, geek who can
who has the talent, the time,
and the skill to pull this off,
which is really impressive.
It's almost worth I mean,
this is the coolest board game I've ever
"Board." I don't [STUTTERS]
I-I feel weird saying it,
it's on a different level
than a board game.
- BILL: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- This is the coolest
playing area I've ever seen.
[INDISTINCT CHATTER]
My favorite part of this board
is this lone tower
that you can only go to
on low tide, or through boat.
Why, you can't touch the water?
Or if you call that
- I mean, you
- Normally,
most gameplay
water elements are like,
- you can't go in unless you have a boat.
- Yeah.
'Cause you'll either drown or it's
poisonous or something like that.
- Yeah, just like real life.
- It's murky.
- Let's go check this out.
- Well, in real life,
I could swim that channel,
[SNAPS FINGERS] like that.
- But not in a full suit of armor.
- Yeah.
Dude
Oh my gosh, hold on, hold on.
[DARK SYNTH MUSIC PLAYS]
I'm assuming we can just pick these up.
Eric, come here. Look at this.
This is gnarly.
Look at this, the detail,
- ERIC: It's fantastic.
- the numbers, they're great.
ERIC:
This is very grimdark.
"Very grimdark." What is that?
Is that one of the is that this game?
- If this is a game?
- No. No, grimdark is
Um, it's a- it's a genre.
It's a lot of things.
JON: You created
a lot of these pieces?
Yeah, I did, it's a model for
the type of game that we're playing
- that's kind of based on Warhammer 40,000.
- Yeah, yeah.
But it's kind of more
esoteric and niche than that.
We're more kind of focused on
making just a few models
and really spending time on making
them unique and personal and special.
Whereas like, if you're playing
a normal game of the tabletop game,
you might have like a hundred
- blue guys in the same armor,
- Okay.
sh**ting Orks or something,
whereas we're more interested in
what if I just make 5 or 6 guys,
and then each one
is like a little character?
So kind of, more like
a role playing game,
but where the story is
what I like about it
is that it's about,
the the visuals of the actual models
kinda tell the story.
CODY: When you collect
a Warhammer army,
there is ways that you
can play Warhammer,
where you pick up a box,
and that box has
everything you need to play,
let's say, a couple scenarios
that are included in that box,
and it has enough miniatures
for you to play.
But the real experience
that people are actually
after most of the time,
when they're playing Warhammer is,
they want to build a full army.
[MUSIC FADES ]
And there's an expression to that,
that you don't have in board games.
- JON: The roll before says you hit him,
- Yeah.
- Right.
- but that hit, couldn't it have been like
- It didn't hit somewhere vital.
- Yeah,
- exactly.
- Yeah.
On a 3 or 4 he's stunned,
and a 5 or 6 he's out of action.
- He might be dead.
- JON: Might be dead?
- Yeah.
- Just out of action.
JON: What's the might,
what do you mean, "might be?"
MAN: Yeah, because after the game,
we roll the injury chart to see
A shar a what?
- MAN: A chart.
- A chart.
I know you're from Sweden,
I wanna hear you say "chart" again.
- MAN: Chart.
- "Shard," oh, like
'Cause it sounds like "shart."
And I dunno if you know what a shart is.
- MAN: I do know what it is.
- You do know what a shart is. Okay.
- All right. I was just double checking.
- [LAUGHTER]
[TRIBAL SYNTH MUSIC PLAYS]
JON:
You know what this feels like,
which kind of seems perfect
for my 10, 11 year old, is like,
when you're with your buddies
and you have your little GI Joe's,
your He-Man,
your little toy action figures,
and you're playing
and you bring
bring your GI Joes over,
we're gonna have a battle and a w*r
But you have the way
cooler terrain here,
where you can, like,
basically do what you did
when you were a kid.
Is that how it feels,
like, when you're doing these?
It certainly does.
ISAAC:
There is a nostalgic element.
Let's just take
every piece of pop culture,
and art history, and history,
and blend it together,
in this, you know,
very postmodern mess.
That's basically how John Blanche
defined a lot of the artwork.
His own stuff was always much
grimmer than the things you could buy.
"In the grim darkness of the far future,
there is only w*r."
[MUSIC ENDS ]
JON: I just heard
the term, "grimdark".
I have no idea what that is.
Anytime people see
miniatures,
or illustrations or something
that are really gritty and dark,
people have started
to use that term,
"grimdark" to fit with
the aesthetic that Games Workshop
has somewhat popularized.
But I feel over time now,
it has started to expand slightly
to other genres
that have a similar aesthetic.
[GLOOMY ORGAN MUSIC PLAYS]
JON:
What other kind of genres or
mediums does it take role in?
Anything that's looking at
maybe the more
bleak aspects of humanity,
I feel could fit
in the grimdark mindset.
I love that everything in
Mordheim is just miserable.
ANA: It's all miserable.
They all react to it in their own ways.
They interact differently.
I think I was drawn to it
on an emotional level.
It's just nothing rational about it.
It's fully, just, it speaks to me.
I'm not sure what it's saying,
but it does speak to me.
Is all of this
basically a metaphor for,
you know, the artist's
childhood trauma?
Like, what kind of
experience was so
you know,
unique in your childhood
that you're now like,
all right,
I gotta get this out through my art,
through my- through my sculpture?
I had a pretty good childhood,
you know, I
I was a nerdy indoor artsy kid.
ERIC: You look at the art,
and you look at the themes, and you're like,
"this is dark, weird stuff,
"these people are psychos,"
but no, these people are
beautiful, loving people.
They were just painting
what it is that they felt
they needed to paint,
that they needed to get out, and
then, later, it was
labeled grimdark art.
I think it fits in with
lots of other art, even like,
DIY, punk ethos,
of trying to connect
with other people
by creating things.
JON: So there's a lot of
kind of a social aspect to it as well,
in the community,
of enjoying this aesthetic and this art,
but seeing what other people
I get that sense,
at these kind of events,
and places where
you see everybody like, hey,
this is my interpretation of it.
I wanna see what
you bring to the table.
It's really fun and fascinating to
connect with new and different people,
find someone from,
like, in Finland or something
that is doing something
you think is cool.
Some of our best friends now
are from all over the world.
Alexander Weinberg was one,
the one in particular,
the one awesome Finnish guy that
connected with us, and we are
involved in a free digital magazine
- called 28, for like, 28 millimeter,
- JON: Yeah, yeah.
that kind of does
a lot looking into
- [MUSIC FADES ]
- grimdark stuff, from miniatures,
to different styles of art,
and photography,
and things of that nature.
Do you think that if I call
someone in Finland
about this,
they would have me
Like we should just
go over to Finland, you guys.
I'm sure he'd be excited to talk to you.
[JON] Wow, there's a lot more to
this grimdark stuff than I thought.
I mean,
these nerds seem cool,
and I like the gross vibe
of grimdark, but
this seems like a lot of effort
just to play a game with my kid.
[CALM MUSIC PLAYS]
But I can't help feeling curious
about why people are so into this.
The guys I met seem
pretty passionate
about what they're
making and building.
There has to be some reason
why they spend so much time
playing games like this.
I feel like I have
even more questions now.
I guess I can reach out
to that guy in Finland.
Or
Cool.
[CITY AMBIENCE]
[JON SNIFFS]
[JON EXHALES]
[CHILL ELECTRONIC MUSIC PLAYS]
Taxi.
Taxi. Taxi!
I don't know
how you say it.
This is insane.
Dude, just this like
Oh, it's beautiful.
We're here at Suomenlinna, Sveaborg.
The V is not silent,
though one would think it is.
You pronounce every V.
Soumen- Soumenlinna, Sveaborg.
There's so many questions
I want to ask about grimdark.
- It's a genre?
- CODY: Yes.
It almost sounds It's less
about making brand new games,
but making your version,
like writing your story.
CODY: Right.
[JON] Okay, I think the pieces
are starting to come together,
but I need to talk to somebody
who is a real expert.
You know, the reason why
we came all the way to Finland.
[MUSIC ENDS ]
Finland feels like it pops up
more often than not
when we're discussing
the world of grimdark
and where it's big and popular.
Why is that?
So, I think, like,
Finland has a slight
tendency towards dark stuff.
We like that kind of imagery,
and it fits very well with
a grimdark aesthetic.
The hobby is very popular here.
At one time, you could basically
find a hobby store
or a bookstore that sold miniatures
in almost every major city.
So, there was
a lot of access to this.
But it also, I think, comes down to
kind of the climate of this.
We're very much a
Northern European country.
- The actual, not the political climate,
- Not the political climate.
- the weather climate.
- Yeah, really the weather.
It's very cold,
it's very grim and dark.
It is. I mean,
in the winter in some parts,
the sun doesn't rise for like a month.
[ETHERIAL MUSIC PLAYS]
The spirit of Finland is
slightly like, inward-looking,
and kind of like, melancholy, almost.
Like, we like to grumble,
but we also like to ponder things,
and be very like,
thinking about nature.
We are a very back-to-nature
kind of country in that sense.
JON: Dangit!
This is beautiful.
It's such a great
setting for a story.
So your magazine covers
like basically that world
of tabletop w*r gaming?
- Yes.
- Or even more specifically, the miniatures.
ALEXANDER: It's what we call like
this 28 kind of spirit of things.
28 was founded in 2018.
We kind of had this idea
of doing a small
kind of a zine, really,
about the kind of games
we and our friends were playing.
You know, everything's online,
but here's also this
kind of like, magazine
that collects some of
the cool stuff that's going on.
And volume one was then released
in early 2019.
ANA: My hobby journey started
over 20 years ago.
The initial world,
it was called Gardens of Hecate,
which is very small,
but I prefer small settings.
And it's got a lot of
horror and folklore elements,
stuff from Croatian history
and Croatian folklore.
Which I think is cool.
I always like to do that because
it's very familiar to me,
but not to most of the world.
One of the first minis that I fully sculpted
was a creature from that universe.
And now I do it
professionally, actually,
I turned this into a full time
job in 2020.
JON:
I feel like model building
is that hobby that,
people did that when they were kids,
took a long break, and then
got right back into it, because
it still takes attention to detail,
it's meticulous.
ALEXANDER: I mean,
a lot of work today is very digital.
- Like, we all work in front of computers.
- Yeah.
So it's something you
can do with your hands.
It really gives that kind of like,
hey, I made something physical
that I can see,
and I can touch,
I can even play with this one.
You can build it as intended,
but you can also have fun
- and go wild with it.
- JON: Yeah.
As you get more comfortable,
more experienced
with the hobby, as we call it,
then I think you go almost
automatically toward that deep end,
where you're building your own thing
and you want to change it,
you want to put
your own stamp on it,
like, this is my army, or my g*ng,
or just my miniature.
So 28 really is about like,
for those who love
this tabletop gaming world
and the miniatures,
but really go into like,
kinda the different avenues
that hobby might take you.
This is really what we think,
with 28, is kind of the interesting part,
where people take a project
that they see,
and kind of like, hey,
I just want to do something
that's very much mine.
- We like to showcase those kind of things.
- JON: Okay.
Those interesting ideas
that might get lost on the internet.
[FADES INTO
ROLLING ELECTRONIC MUSIC]
A friend of mine had Warhammer 40K,
the second edition starter box,
and since we're in Finland, none of us
really knew English all that well.
But we could
look at the pictures,
and kind of figure out like,
there's a game here,
but with small pocket money
we could only buy like one miniature each.
At the time, I was, you know, young,
mostly reading comics.
Here in Scandinavia,
Donald Duck comics are really big, so
- I'm sorry?
- Donald Duck.
Donald Duck comics are big in Finland?
Yeah, in whole Scandinavia,
they're really, really popular.
- It's very much a European thing.
- JON: Really?
Yeah. So I was into Donald Duck comics,
and then I see a, you know, opened rule
the Codex Imperialis rulebook,
where I see John Blanche's art.
- Oh my gosh.
- And it was like, what the hell is this?
- It's gnarly, it's like, black and white.
- We've got Mickey and Goofy,
and then we've got
Satan's minions who are eating babies.
- ALEXANDER: Exactly.
- And you're like, okay
All right, now,
was there an in-between?
There wasn't really an in-between.
I was kind of blown away.
Just like, what the hell is this?
It's so different.
You know you have the
kind of wholesome Donald Duck,
and then you have the very
unwholesome 40K.
JON: Yeah.
[MUSIC ENDS ]
[WIND BLOWING]
JON: Beautiful.
[ETHERIAL VOCALIZING MUSIC PLAYS]
Look at that, you guys.
That's cool.
TUOMAS: The main thing
that gets people in
is like a piece of
art that captures you
- and wants you to learn more.
-JON: Yeah.
[MUSIC FADES ]
TUOMAS: But that
alone wouldn't do it.
We see beautiful art all the time,
but if there's nothing behind it,
- you lose interest.
- JON: Yeah, yeah.
I'm working on a new one right now,
the game,
in grimdark universe,
- called Trench Crusade.
- Okay.
Certainly what brings people in
is the artwork.
This is one of the Templars
who opened the Gate of Hell,
and this is how they
were rewarded.
- And here are the humans
- JON: This is Mordheim we're looking at?
TUOMAS: No, this is my
new game, Trench Crusade.
JON: Oh, this is wow.
So you've already got
TUOMAS: Yeah.
These are the play test rules.
Of course obviously,
in order to launch it, to stick
So and you can
see here it's the um
that's from John.
Here is a Chorister, so,
these are the people who
commit ritual suicide in the
in order to spite God.
And then if they
hell accepts their sacrifice,
they come back carrying their heads,
singing hymns they learned in hell.
Heretic Commandos who
have a stealth generators
that hide them from
the eye of the god
Now, how much are you
involved in the design?
Are you an artist yourself?
Like a painter, illustrator, or?
TUOMAS: I am,
but Mike Franchina is
one of the most famous
fantasy artists in the world right now,
so, he handles the art,
I write them,
and we spend often hours together
just talking and making,
like, a stick man sketch.
Yeah. And you're like, I like that more.
Or I like that less.
And so you are
essentially directing him
and then you kind of end
up with a final
which is like,
that's what I was impicturing.
MIKE: I'm a concept artist, and I was
primarily a character designer.
I've been working
in video games for about 20 years.
I did
I worked on Diablo 3, Diablo 4,
Warhammer Online,
and I did a lot of freelance stuff
for like, I worked on Darktide,
I worked on Callisto Protocol,
Path of Exile 2.
TUOMAS: Of course,
he's such a great artist,
that a lot of stuff, like John Blanche,
he comes up with himself.
These are the a*tillery Witches,
these are
uh, mass produced in
the death factories of hell.
They are artificial witches,
that, they kind of open
a small portal to the hell,
and bring a b*mb, and they're using
anti-gravity to throw it,
so they are
the walking field a*tillery.
MIKE: Throughout my entire career
as a video game concept artist,
my belief was always, like, that you
could kinda push the envelope more
and it wouldn't be
a bad thing.
TUOMAS: And then there's the walking
battle shrine, the Anchorite Shrine,
where the volunteer is to be broken in
the cross that gives spiritual protection.
The little bit you've told me
about Trench Crusades
is- is this still
the demons' side?
TUOMAS:
No, no, these are the good guys.
MIKE: Trench Crusade has
a lot of things I put in it
that are easily recognizable.
It's like from history,
or like, the religious aesthetics,
and kind of the same thing,
like military aesthetic,
like World w*r I, and we use
World w*r II aesthetics as well,
like, everyone knows, even if
you're not a history buff.
I think it's just sort of
like a perfect storm of these,
all these different like, recognizable
ingredients spun in a way
that feels kind
of a little bit fresh,
even though you've seen it all before.
Tuomas, I know
this isn't your personal setup,
- but do you have any idea
- [MUSIC ENDS ]
what creature lays
these kinds of eggs?
I have a guess, I can throw it out there,
you can correct me if I'm wrong,
'cause I know this is supposed
to be in the future
and has aliens and creatures
in the Warhammer sci-fi universe.
I know a little bit
about Warhammer,
just a little bit.
I would love to say dragon eggs.
That's the obvious guess.
However, I think it's also obviously wrong.
- Yes. Now, in the Warhammer, it's
- [MELLOW SYNTH MUSIC PLAYS]
in 40K, there are
all sorts of alien races,
which which run the gamut
from the Tolkien-esque Orks,
to the- the sort of a collectivist T'au,
to these-
the- the lizard type aliens, it's the
that all are part of this
endless galactic w*r.
- Not dragon egg, it's a
- JON: Not dragon egg.
a filthy Xenos that the-
that humanity face in the future.
So I'm wondering if the humans
who run this fortification
are aware that they have
an infestation?
They are almost certainly in the process,
when you play this game, it's
they'd be fighting against them
to get rid of them
like in so many
typical grimdark universes,
that humanity
is ruled by a rather nasty kind of a
the intergalactic government
that is at w*r with
every single other type of inte
[STAMMERS]
the sentient beings.
So, never having played this game
or even knowing how to play it,
I would feel like the first move,
if you were on the humans' side,
is taking preventative measures, and
I just learned about
line of sight in this game
sh**ting and destroying
those eggs, so that, at least,
those two individual creatures,
with souls, nonetheless,
do not come back.
And- or not cannot, you know,
continue to procreate.
And that is, you're actually
hitting a nail on the head.
That's the-
the great thing about the
fantasy and sci fi tabletop gaming,
that you create the story.
Like, a movie or a comic book,
you either watch,
or a book, you read them.
It's, on the tabletop game,
you're basically telling a story
where you are the actors,
the director, the writer,
and you have your- the
an army, a squad, a warband,
whatever is at the scale of the game,
and you control their actions,
so you decide the
who do we take out first?
It's, you learn about the objectives,
and you command them,
and you get to decide.
And then the dice measure that.
But are you deciding the objectives,
or are the objectives
kinda within
the rules of the game?
The objectives are within the rules
of the game. So let's say that,
it could be a scenario where
the aliens are defending the eggs,
- and you are to destroy them.
- Okay.
So your opponent would use
the alien defenders trying to- to stop you,
and you try to get into position
to destroy them. But yeah.
So the scenario is given by the rules,
and the two players,
using their forces, their abilities,
and dice as the random factor,
are trying to fulfill
whatever their mission is.
Would you categorize it
as a role playing game?
Because I know, like
I've just now recently only,
learned the term 'tabletop w*r gaming.'
Does that fall within
a bigger genre of role playing?
Because you have an element of
tabletop w*r gaming in D&D
To answer your question properly,
I will go back in history a little bit.
'Cause it's actually the other way around.
w*r gaming, which originally came from
the Kriegsspiel that
the Prussians played
- to teach their officers how to fight wars.
-Okay.
These developed into
tabletop w*r gaming,
and the very first
role playing game, D&D,
started its life as
a tabletop w*r game,
and the role playing
came from these games.
- Okay.
- So the biggest difference is
that the w*r games
are focused on combat.
So each time you play,
it is about two or more forces
fighting against each other,
and you commanding one of them,
rather than necessarily doing their
life outside, like going to bar,
or the- doing the travel to
the b*ttlefield.
What does this have
to do with grimdark?
Warhammer is where
grimdark comes from.
"In the grim darkness of
the far future, there is only w*r."
Its earlier version,
the Fantasy Battle version,
already was very much in that-
the sphere of imagery,
because it draws
its inspiration from the
well, partly of the real
Gothic style of art,
and sort of the grim aspects
of the medieval art,
like the Four Riders of the Apocalypse,
and the Drer and Bosch paintings.
The Ship of Fools,
it's the Visions of Hell
For me, it's sort of like, the stuff
I've always kind of gravitated to,
like, has a horror bent to it.
It's really bleak.
It can be mean-spirited in some ways.
Sometimes it's like, tongue-in-cheek.
There is a good quote
that sort of speaks to that is,
from a character in the
universe saying that the
"It is not the horrors of w*r
that frighten me.
"It is the unseen horrors of peace."
That the people have
devolved into a level where
to them peace is horrible,
and- and w*r is what
they're comfortable with.
- Yeah.
- TUOMAS: And it's in the aesthetics,
the storytelling, it's in the- the
like, the style of architecture
and the culture that you present.
It's the atmosphere and mood
is more important than
the trying to
have a, uh realism,
in a sense that a lot
of sci fi tries to
follow our modern technology,
while the- in here the
science fiction setting
is more about the,
how do we dress up
the human condition.
And John Blanche is
the grandfather of grimdark.
In White Dwarf, which is
Games Workshop's magazine,
has there used to be this section
John kind of curated,
called Blanchitsu,
and Finland has, I think,
the highest participation
in that column of any country.
There's more Finnish artists
there than any other country,
except for England, obviously.
I guess I just
don't understand,
like, why- why in England?
You're gonna have to talk with John.
In England?
In England.
- Okay.
- [MUSIC ENDS ]
Do we have
the budget for that?
[SIGHING]
Huh.
I don't get it.
The coordinates bring me right here.
It's supposed to be the center
for grimdark and everything
gnarly.
Looks pretty bright here to me,
I don't know.
[CHILL ELECTRONIC MUSIC PLAYS]
JON: City of Caves.
Dude, that's so cool.
There's an entrance, dude.
I'm kind of digging Nottingham.
This is a cool town.
Life in the caves would've
been pretty grim and dark.
You had to be
in pretty grim circumstances
to say, "Honey, I'm sorry
we can't afford general housing.
"We've got to go dig in the mud."
Society.
You see that guy
right there?
He looks proper British old.
I feel like we have to
I gotta dress a little bit,
look the part,
so I can blend into old England.
That's what Nottingham is,
Old England?
In order to really understand grimdark,
I gotta dress like the English.
"The Brits," here, as they say,
and find a real
English knit wool sweater.
[JON] Just walking
around Nottingham,
the birthplace of grimdark,
I can't help but
wonder how living here,
surrounded by all this history,
has influenced the artists.
PHIL: I used to work full-time for
Games Workshop in the department.
Grimdark is a word that's just
used as a shorthand to try and
describe what this huge thing is,
that kind of very British
style illustration, as well.
It's British,
or at least, there's a British wit to it.
Otherwise it doesn't really work.
Warhammer grew out of a
of a sort of
counterculture movement,
a very British counterculture movement.
JON: What makes grimdark
so uniquely British?
MATTY: Thatcher's Britain,
which was
something obviously America
never experienced or suffered under,
where it was that kind of like,
- all-powerful government imperialism,
- [ETHERIAL MUSIC PLAYS]
that grim, dark future
which started in the '70s,
well, '80s, and has now continued
and is becoming worse and worse.
It should be acknowledged
and honored that a lot of
the grimdark tradition,
both in authorship and in art,
was largely a politically critical movement
and a satirical movement.
There's lots of good- and amazing-
grimdark books and grimdark art
that are, you know,
the author's scathing critique of
you know,
the dynamic between races,
or the dynamic between sexes,
or the dynamic between the populace
of a country and the government.
That's also a very common
way that people express that.
To me, that's what
always defines that kind of
grimdark aesthetic
is like, you like sci fi,
but this is something
where if you turn it on its head,
darker, grittier, weirder, stranger,
sometimes more colorful,
sometimes less.
But there was a certain British
aesthetic to it that I really appreciated.
What is attractive about that?
I mean, you guys have already
kinda touched a little bit upon that,
but I mean, it's there in the title.
It's grim, it's dark, it's depressing.
And what draws fans to that?
When people read, you know,
comic books, watch these movies,
there's that element of like,
oh man, I wish I could be
a horde,
and one of the snotlings,
or one of the Orks
just hanging out in that world.
What is attractive about that to you,
and what do you think,
is it attractive to other people?
I think it's the fact
like we say,
it's a really nihilistic universe,
which is kind of, again,
nothing you see in other sci fi.
PHIL: When discussing visuals with
the art department at Workshop,
we're trying to figure out
what is the right tone.
JON: Okay, but what does that mean?
A grimdark tone?
JOHAN: I'd say it's a
sort of dystopian world
that's so dystopian,
it almost becomes funny.
An important element is kind
of like how over the top it is.
It becomes kind of funny,
because you have
these characters so miserable,
that it almost becomes
a comedy in a sense.
Like, they really
their lives suck so badly
that you kind of have to
laugh at them a bit.
If there are good guys,
they're usually all likable.
It's like- like the Mr.
Bean character.
- PHIL: He's an idiot.
- [CHUCKLES] Grimdark, ok.
Yeah, but it's that idea of,
we cheer on,
not necessarily the underdog,
but like, the idiot.
There's a satirical edge to it.
The darkness of the setting
never becomes
completely suffocating,
because it's so
absurdly sinister it's funny.
There's this aesthetic
of the pathetic,
but pathetic can also
be kind of funny.
Toothless soldier wrestling
in the dirt with an Ork,
about a pig that's
probably already run away.
And neither is really
doing any damage,
they're just getting
really muddy.
And it's really pathetic,
but it's also kind of funny.
Okay, so you derive a lot
so, it sounds like you
derive a lot of, like, humor
- Yeah.
- JON: and comedy from this realm.
Do you think that you
could make a grimdark comedy?
- I definitely think so.
- [MUSIC ENDS ]
There's a lot of humor
in the grimdark world, as well.
There's a lot of silliness
to lighten up-
very Monty Python-esque humor
that comes in, especially in the '80s.
But I think- I think a real
key to think about it is that,
no matter how bad
your life is,
this world you're
playing in is actually worse,
- so therefore that is your escapism.
- [HAUNTING OPERATIC MUSIC PLAYS]
JON: Um, you guys,
we're at the castle.
This is what England's all about.
It's not about the fish and chips.
It's about the castles.
That's grimdark, you guys.
This is where
I would be in the w*r,
defending my
my wives.
I wish we had all day here.
They say you could
plan a whole day here.
This is insane.
JON: Very healthy looking kids.
I'm really impressed with
the wax works here.
They're making these,
like, medieval guys
look like they were
using Vidal Sassoon or something.
MATTY: Part of grimdark is
actually playing games together.
So it is that kind of
shared creationism as well.
Storytelling, which is probably one
of the oldest things in the world,
sitting around telling stories
to each other.
It's a continuation of that.
JON: I can smell the history.
There's probably great
stories written in these walls.
Not metaphorically, mind you, physically.
"And if my pen had been
better for his sake,
"I would have mended
every letter, master."
Wow, that was in there?
Wonder why
they don't really show it.
That's the grim dark of
their reality back in that time.
There were people who
spent their whole lives,
it's not like they ever
saw things get better.
That's even more dark and grim.
[JON] One of the reasons why
people get into grimdark
is because of its ability
to create interesting stories.
But I'm curious about
what makes a story 'grimdark.'
- So to answer that question,
- [MUSIC FADES ]
I'm meeting with
the Queen of Grimdark herself,
Anna Smith Spark.
- Oh, we got cat in shot.
- She's been
Oh, oh, Caecilius.
- JON: What's her name?
- His- his name's Caecilius.
- Caecilius? Oh boy.
- Yes.
- I tweet as Queen of Grimdark,
- [SOFT PIANO MUSIC PLAYS]
which is kind of a joke.
If I ever decide to write romcoms,
I'm really stuck.
But I mean,
damn it, yeah,
there aren't that many
women writing in this genre,
and I'm proud of owning it.
JON: What does grimdark
mean to you?
Oh goodness. So I've talked about this
and written about this at length,
and I could go on all day about it.
Grimdark for me, in some ways,
I'll sort of jokingly say to people,
grimdark is fantasy that's realistic.
It's about a very complicated,
nuanced world where it's not
the good versus evil.
I mean, The Lord of the Rings,
it's very, very clear.
There are two sides.
One side is good,
- one side is bad.
- Yeah.
History very, very rarely
works like that.
Very few wars, you can simply say,
you know, "I'm pretty clear we're
fighting on the right side here, guys."
It's much more complicated than that.
George R.R. Martin explores this really well
in Game of Thrones, that way that
you have a figure who does
look like they're some kind of great
you know, they're fundamentally good,
they're a decent world leader,
and you kind of feel like,
hey, this is probably the side to be on.
And then, yes, they often just died,
or were k*lled in battle,
or were then shown to actually
be a deeply flawed person.
And for me, grimdark is
very much about exploring that,
and talking about that, and in fact,
exploring and problematizing
the whole nature
of conflict in fantasy.
I mean, as soon as you
set up, in fantasy,
a very obvious
We are good, and then
there are the forces of evil,
and the forces of evil are utterly other.
They are orcs.
They are monsters.
They are led by some being who is evil.
In science fiction,
you can go even further,
you can have
you can have an army of robots,
you know, some things
which are not alive.
As soon as you get into
that very obvious dialectic,
saying that the people we
are opposed to are not people,
they are other, they are monstrous,
they don't deserve to live,
and that immediately becomes
incredibly politically problematic.
And for me,
grimdark is about interrogating that,
asking those questions,
pointing these things out.
I've always read fantasy
in that kind of,
essentially in a pacifist,
feminist way, as being,
essentially celebrating
toxic masculine violence,
and an intensely militaristic
masculine, sexually violent culture.
JON: I feel like, you know,
this is you trying to almost
educate in some ways, like
this is not about escapism,
because it's pulling back
the sheets of stuff
that exists in our world today.
But saying,
"I want to tell these stories,"
that's pulling back the curtains,
people becoming aware of this,
but using a fantasy storyline as a template.
But I have to admit,
also, you know, I do find
massive battle scenes, and w*r,
reading about w*r,
and writing about w*r,
and watching fantasy
and historical films
incredibly exciting, that kind of
fantasy of being the w*r leader,
strutting around with
their cloak and sword,
leading the armies into battle.
Really, I kind of enjoy writing
that kind of
extreme violence,
and the political interrogation
of extreme violence,
showing the bleakness,
showing the rawness, the savagery,
the effects it has on people,
and making that real.
[MUSIC ENDS ]
CODY: I think a lot
of people find
grimdark art,
grimdark authorship, very cathartic.
[EERIE LOW-TEMPO MUSIC PLAYS]
ERIC: 1490 Doom is
a tabletop skirmish game
set in a very grimdark setting
from 1490 to 1494,
where there is a creeping fog,
or a miasma that starts
seeping from the ground
and raises slowly
over those next five years,
and soon it's over the height of any man,
and basically no one survives.
MALE NARRATOR:
The year is 1490.
The old world is dying.
A thick, unholy fog rises from
the ground, choking the land,
corrupting flesh and driving men to madness.
The Creeping Death
does not come like fire or w*r.
It seeps. It suffocates.
It consumes.
The great fortresses of Christendom
stand as islands
in a sea of rot.
Lords and bishops
barricade themselves in towers,
while the starving masses
are left to perish below.
There is only w*r.
[MUSIC FADES ]
JON: Okay, so that does sound
dark and grim.
Are there certain guidelines
that you follow
to create a grimdark game,
you know,
that can tell a grimdark story?
I don't know that
we totally did, like,
I think that we're just attracted
to that art in those type of games.
So it's like, whether it's called,
"grimdark" or not, it's like,
that's the world that
we want to be and create in.
So I don't think we came
with a set of parameters like,
"It needs to follow this."
It's like, nah.
It's like, the world that we
wanted to make
just happens to be
what people would call, "grimdark."
What's important to us
is that for our games,
we want them to be
very immersive.
- So, all of
- That's the most important thing for us.
- For us.
- Immersion.
But, 1490 Doom, it's funny,
even though we never intended
for it to be grimdark,
there's plenty of people who've
commented on the internet,
"Oh great. Now there's a game
trying to out-grimdark Warhammer."
Does Games Workshop have essentially
the monopoly on most table
like, these miniature w*r games,
skirmish games?
They are definitely like the whale
in quite a small pond.
- Okay.
- They're the big company,
that everyone kind of
wants to beat,
- but nobody's ever really gonna beat them.
- Okay.
What I'm looking at now
is if you imagine
Games Workshop starting,
with Warhammer appearing,
then Warhammer 40,000,
and Warhammer going this direction.
I'm just imagining if it didn't get
floated on the stock market,
if it didn't start to just produce
more sanitized product, because they did,
because they didn't want to offend
the biggest buyer at that point,
it was the mums taking their kids
into Games Workshop to buy stuff.
You see, you can't have
somebody on the front with their boobs out,
and people cutting each other's
heads off and things.
You had to hide that in the rulebook
and then eventually it disappeared.
Not that I really think that's
a great idea to have, but,
they did sanitize things
and start to produce models and things
which become a little bit more vanilla.
Games Workshop, the company that
makes a lot of these models,
has been more recently
pushing towards heroes, and like,
Space Marines are one of
the main IPs of Games Workshop
that are humanity's mightiest warriors
in this special power armor and whatnot.
And while that stuff's
kind of cool,
that's not what really appeals to me.
There's almost certainly a
non-zero amount of people
who are attracted to
grimdark games because of
the sanitization of Warhammer.
I think that Warhammer now,
at least in their model range,
spans the gamut.
There is a tremendous amount of
Warhammer armies and miniatures
that are wonderful
for you if you want something
that's the opposite of grimdark,
but I think that
Warhammer is making
some of the most grimdark miniatures
that they've ever made recently.
[DRAMATIC SYNTH MUSIC PLAYS]
I mean, grimdark is a world
I absolutely love working with.
There's so many creative challenges involved
when writing
the music and setting the tone
for this type of world,
and I think that's why
I just adore working with this world.
As crazy as it is.
I did not have a lot of
awareness of Warhammer,
and once I started working on Vermintide,
I started digging
deep to find out about all the lore.
And I figured out pretty quickly
that it's basically
a well that goes on forever.
So I really needed to
understand that world completely.
Before I could start
inventing something new,
you know, you have to
know what what it is
and where it is before you
can start building on top of that.
I personally, like when I,
you know, am trying
to create stuff on my own,
and, uh, some of the ideas that I have
for movies, or television, or a book,
or a comic book or something,
I get excited,
and I'll go to bed thinking about it.
- Yeah.
- And I'm like,
I wonder if I could have
that same feeling,
like the artists
in the world of grimdark,
where they're like, ah,
I want to go to bed
feeling like,
this is exciting me because
I am creating in these worlds.
And it is, you're creating.
And I'm speaking in terms of the people
who are in the world who are creating.
You are creator,
you you sculpt this stuff.
So you are
your head space is in this world.
Yeah.
To I mean, even if you
labelled it or not,
- Yeah, yeah.
- you know, you are
- Just being the precious artist,
- mucking about in the muck.
- like, "I can't call it grimdark," or whatever.
- Yeah.
If it is, it's one of those things
it probably is. It's just a different label.
But it is that, that is
the most interesting thing,
is not having heroes.
And there's anti-heroes, maybe.
Bad guys, maybe.
I just get influenced by people,
like rock musicians,
and the the poses
they throw on stage.
I can just sort of do,
freeze frame that,
and say, that's a wonderful,
just powerful movement.
Then put a sword
in their hands and they're away.
Best thing I've ever done
is get into sculpting.
Took some time,
'cause the technology didn't exist, so,
I started doing it in Blender,
just on a computer
before then as well,
which is another 3D design program.
And then thought, it's really difficult
to get behind things.
It's not very natural and flowing.
I wonder if that VR thing will work,
and then like, oh look,
there's a program on it that you can get.
Just bought a cheap headset,
gave it a go and never looked back.
[PEACEFUL MUSIC PLAYS]
So I sculpt through virtual reality,
which is something
not many people do.
And so I'm just like,
working with them virtually,
which is like, some complete and utter science
fiction to the 15 year old boy that I was.
If you went back and said, Matt, you'll be
using virtual reality to make those miniatures.
I'd be like, yeah, no,
no, you won't, you won't.
JON: When you're sculpting
and creating these creatures
that, you know,
some people would say,
and you know, not labeling
whether it's grimdark or not,
What is it that Oh,
and you talked about like,
you know, just creationism.
You're getting into world-building
and doing that stuff.
What drives you the most
when you are
when you are creating,
what you love about creating?
Is it about, like, the aesthetic?
Would you say, "Yeah,
I like dealing with the
the comedy of these little guys?
Or, is it that, for you personally,
is it the escapism,
going to a darker place?
In my case,
being completely vain
is making little sculptures
that aren't gonna sitting
in a park somewhere.
They're gonna be on people's shelves,
and be playing games with them,
people are gonna
be painting them.
And I'll get messages
every now and again,
people saying,
"Oh, thanks for painting drawing"
um, "Thanks for sculpting that."
"I really enjoyed painting that
with my son" etcetera.
So that's the payoff.
It's nothing like
the cash in the bank.
It's literally that these things
will be knocking around
after I'm dead.
And then hopefully, 20, 30 years
or whatever in the future,
people will be still printing them and still
be painting them. That'd be amazing to me.
And maybe they
might remember my name.
And that people will be getting
pleasure out of that, and it's
The point to creation
is just making something cool.
Something I like.
Something that makes me laugh as well.
Sometimes I laugh out loud
when I'm sculpting,
'cause like, you'll be
pushing the digital pixels around
and some other strange
silly face will come out,
or something stupid and funny,
and it'll just make me laugh.
Or it will be,
going back to that teenage lad, going,
it'd be cool to draw a g*n,
and half of his face is missing.
Maybe some tubes going out the back.
And then I'm always thinking,
whilst I'm sculpting, well how
is it gonna be to paint?
I'll be like, oh yeah,
a bit of pouch there.
I mean, now you can put some paint
in there and then it'll come out nice,
and you could do
a bit of a highlight there
ISAAC: A lot of us don't
play games a lot.
Some people like to
play games all the time,
but for me, the game is most
interesting as a framework
for the artistic project,
or the design project,
of creating the little guys.
CODY: I really like knowing
if there's a story behind
why my opponent's models
are involved in this conflict,
and I like imagining
what my models' motivations might be too.
Hey everybody,
my name is Malev.
Miniature painting is an area
in a fun little artistic corner
that a bunch of people
who don't consider
themselves artists end up into.
They totally can
open the door for people to
be a little bit more artistic,
express themselves.
When you're making something
so small, it's slow.
I think a lot of people like me
find it really relaxing
and soothing to just like,
hold the tiny thing in your hands,
and you have to like,
you have to calm your breathing.
- There's a certain weird,
- [MUSIC ENDS ]
meditative aspect to it,
even if you're, you know,
making a gross little freak.
It can be very, very relaxing.
[MELLOW SYNTH MUSIC PLAYS]
want everybody to make
cool stuff and celebrate that.
MALEV: Here, let's talk about
the palette now.
We have a Coal Black,
a Blue Black, Yellow Ocher,
Bold Pyrrole Red, Titanium White,
and a Silver.
And this palette
is super close to what it is
popularized as called the Zorn palette.
And that is a palette
that's pretty popular
in the grimdark scene,
when it comes to miniature painting,
'cause it is the palette that is
most used by John Blanche.
So where does John Blanche
factor into this whole
world and into grimdark?
Well, without John,
it wouldn't exist.
John Blanche, one of the kind of
original art directors for Games Workshop,
is really kind of our
our patron saint.
TUOMAS: John was my art director
on several projects,
Realm of Chaos,
Warhammer 6th edition, and Mordheim,
which is the one of the essential
grimdark games.
Since he is very much an artist
in the actual sense of the word,
he never copied what
other people did.
He always created
all the techniques,
and everything he does
from the beginning.
He created a unique
look and feel that,
when you see it,
it's instantly recognizable.
Most people don't know that
the root of the the look,
and the style of art
- was created by him.
- JON: Okay.
Everybody else got inspired from
all the beautiful art you see here,
ultimately it's the it's building
on top of what he started artistically.
That is, by the way, taking nothing away
from the other artists,
- but somebody had to come first.
- JON: No. Yeah.
So I spent a lot of time
hanging around in Games Workshops
when I was about 13,
and I mean,
looking at these amazing
little chaos warriors and thinking like,
"Oh. That is
that is the man for me."
And of course, I discovered
a couple of weeks ago,
that that was always John Blanche
that was, a lot of that
was John Blanche,
and he was obviously hugely
influential in creating that aesthetic.
I remember meeting
or seeing John Blanche
at Games Day 1989,
in Darby, assembly rooms,
and it was like seeing a rock star,
because he was surrounded
by people, fans.
He had a leather jacket, red shirt,
and he was, like I say, surrounded
by a swarm of people.
And it was cool,
because you'd seen his picture
in the magazine,
you've seen his artwork,
and there was an aura about that,
which was
really exciting for
a young person to see,
that illustrators, artists,
can be seen as something
more than just, you know,
scribbles on a page.
I think his shadow casts long
over like fantasy in that sense.
He might not be as known
as other illustrators or stuff,
but what he did
is as important as his artwork.
In the White Dwarf magazine,
we have seen the first time
the pictures and paintings,
the artwork,
the illustrations by John Blanche,
and, um
I think we both, um
were really fascinated by the style,
the expression of the art.
Then a few years ago,
I think it was during
the pandemic,
I got in touch personally
with John Blanche.
So, um, he discovered my music.
I was so happy that he liked
my style of ambient music,
the experimental music stuff.
He asked me if I could imagine to
do something for the Voodoo Forest.
I had the image,
the illustrations, the artworks,
the paintings by John, and
they got me the inspiration for the sounds.
I think, for me, grimdark is
is this kind of personal
feeling it transports.
The one time I did meet him,
we were sitting down playing a game.
He was talking he just
loves flintlock, so I always thought
I mean, I'm writing a game
myself now, just for us to play,
which has got, flintlocks are
better than lasers.
So they make big bangs
and more reliable, etcetera,
but it's just the style,
the look of them and things.
So yes, definitely his work
does influence me quite a lot.
But I know there's so many other
people who are influenced by his work.
Okay, so, getting to the bottom
of kind of like, you know,
trying to flesh out what
grimdark means,
what it's all about,
and kind of the beginnings of this.
What else do you think
I could be doing, to kind of
finish this tapestry that is grimdark?
Uh [EXHALES]
I mean,
we can only sort of
paint a picture so far.
So, if you want to talk
to the Grandmaster,
I say go find John.
See what he has to say.
Yeah. Of course, John.
- We keep talking about him.
- Be careful of the moats,
and the portcullis door,
and the trolls,
but you'll find him
at the top of his tower.
- With his hat.
- [CHUCKLING]
You say that, but in England
I feel like that's probably true.
I mean, he
he does have a moat,
probably have a hedge garden,
which is really nicely
Yeah, mostly spikes.
It is it is like that
going to see John, to visit him.
Okay. I'm gonna go.
Do you guys know where he lives?
- [CHILL ELECTRONIC MUSIC PLAYS]
- JON: Or at least the path
- that will lead me in the direction That way?
- That way.
- Okay. That's easy.
- That way.
John?
Maybe he's over here.
Hey, you guys seen John?
[WHISPERS] Psst, Robin.
[MAKES TONGUE
FLUTTERING NOISE]
Do you know where John Blanche is?
Do you guys know John Blanche
and where I can find him?
I assume everybody in England knows.
- I don't think he's around here.
- [MUSIC FADES ]
Why am I wasting my time?
No, but he is
very cold right now.
Blanche!
[NO AUDIO]
[MYSTICAL ORCHESTRAL MUSIC PLAYS]
MAN: I can't do neat.
And well,
I tend to not want to do neat.
Is a tree neat?
So many different textures
of the trees outside the window.
You got errors of the bark,
and the lichens growing on the
on the trunks.
And all the leaves that change colors.
[MUSIC RISES]
In a couple of weeks,
they'll all be gone, the leaves.
Till next spring.
So they're always
in a state of flux.
How can you
How can you draw that
without drawing a whole series?
Might be fun to do, actually.
Might get a bit boring
repeating and repeating.
Which is odd because
all the pictures I do,
are just millions
and millions of repetitions.
The natural world is fantastic,
and it misleads.
And it's always completely chaotic,
and mad.
Well, you know, when I retired
a little over a year ago,
I thought I was retiring,
then after a couple of spells in hospital,
suddenly it became
known to me that people
wanted to give me
projects to work on,
for money, of course,
just based on
that 40 years in Games Workshop.
Really interesting.
It took me by surprise,
this thing
called being famous.
[SCOFFS]
It's kind of weird really.
It feels like you're kind of,
you know
been dubbed as one of
the first people to really, in some ways,
- break the rules when it came to
- Absolutely.
fantasy art, illustration in general.
Tell me tell me a little bit more
about kind of how that all began.
It was a completely odd,
grimdark life.
It really was.
I was frightened of everything
when I was a kid.
Yes, and nothing was explained.
And so I was frightened of stuff,
you know, thunderstorms,
skulls, skeletons, scary stuff.
Later on I'd draw a lot of those things.
I'd draw skulls everywhere.
Put the fear into me.
So there's lots of
creepy stuff from my childhood.
I'll put it in my art now.
And I'll remember things
and I'll say "Well I'll draw that.
"That'll be fun."
It's nothing to do with, um
needing to explain anything,
I just do it because it's
it's fun to draw.
JON:
Just images, like that's
more easily stick in your
head and then you just enjoy it, like
- Yep.
- this is good
- Yeah.
- good fodder to work off of.
My father worked in hotels.
So he'd be at work
until 1:00 in the morning.
Occasionally he'd buy me
Britain's toy soldier,
American Civil w*r in particular.
He'd leave them on the mantle piece.
I'd find them
the next day and go "Whoa".
So I had a box of toy soldiers
when I was a toddler,
and I used to live under the table.
You know, I was always drawing
pictures that stretched reality.
It was more surrealism than
sort of fantasy.
I think my terms of reference
was always real history.
Real history. Okay.
Gives it a really strong
foundation to work with.
'Cause you're just messing with
different aspects
of stuff that exists already.
And I've always stuck with that
to this day.
So everything I produced
surprised all the people I was working with.
It was new and it was fresh.
'Cause I was just
coming from a different place.
And I find that real history's
got a resonance,
a gravitas.
This hill is the remnants
of an old hill fort.
It's incredible.
How can you not be interested?
Within minutes,
we can get to
be in the middle of
real, historic
Bronze Age sites.
It's fascinating.
I personally have really been
drawn to your artwork,
and so much you see is
these blacks, and dark, dark colors.
But I think a lot of your early stuff,
it feels more
lots of reds, and lots of
very warm colors.
Is there any reasoning
for that choice of color scheme
that you use strongly in your
in your work?
I try to never use blue.
Sky's blue. Plenty of blue around.
In reality, I used to
At first I was using watercolors
and then I went on to using inks.
Because inks well, art
Winsor & Newton artist inks,
they got shellac in them,
and they can operate
very much like watercolors.
But it doesn't take
ages and ages to dry.
And it's vivid, almost luminous.
But blue,
blue ink is fugitive.
Fugitive?
That means it fades
in daylight.
- It fades in daylight.
- It fades in daylight.
Okay.
So I tend not to use blues
in my paintings.
Although I don't do color anymore.
JON: Yeah, yeah, it's a little bit
more work, but
Drawing in black and white.
[CHUCKLES]
I spend most of my time
drawing pictures, which
which is what I love doing.
I think it's interesting
that the Italian Renaissance
which everybody raves about,
I went to the Uffizi Gallery
in Florence, and I looked
at some of these things, and
To me, they're nowhere near
the Northern Renaissance,
Altdorfer and Grnewald,
who has painted Jesus on the cross,
but he's a mess.
He's bleeding all over,
he is a mess.
There's nothing romantic
or nice about it.
It's grimdark.
JON: Tell me
tell me a little bit more
about kinda how that all began.
A colleague I worked with very closely
my whole 40 year plus
work at Games Workshop,
was a chap called Alan Merrett.
He wrote the strapline for 40K.
You know, "In grim darkness"
Grimdark.
That's where it comes from.
That's how it started.
JON: I mean, you know,
when you get dubbed as
you know, the Father of Grimdark,
or of anything,
and you kinda like
I don't know how that makes you feel,
if you're like, you know what,
that's all silliness.
This is just what I do
There's two things
that really bug me.
One is, it has an
inherent sense of being deliberate.
And it never was.
It's just stuff
that's happened, and grown.
The other thing that bugs me is,
on some of the
Facebook pages.
There's a couple of groups
use my name Blanche, Blanchitsu.
JON: What is Blanchitsu?
Well, I reckon it's people painting me.
And a lot of people
seem to equate my style
as being scruffy.
Well, you look at those.
There's nothing fast, or scruffy.
They're still very accomplished
pieces of art, almost.
Some people come with examples.
"Here's a Terminator I did."
Scruffy mess.
Seems to think,
"Well, that's Blanchitsu."
It's an excuse to allow them
not to be
hungry to be accomplished,
in painting miniatures.
Painting miniatures is an art form,
and my my own personal style
has evolved into
something it never started off as.
I've gone on a journey,
which has been very personal.
So
JON:
Is most of this is just ink, or
I mean, when I see
the black and white ones, is it just
basically just, I mean,
different kinds of ink?
JOHN BLANCHE: It's ink with
dot and dash or scribble.
JON: Yeah, totally.
Oh, my goodness.
JOHN BLANCHE:
and I work a bit of pencil on top.
Gives it more depth with the
adding in the carbon
to the natural history.
Exaggerating the shapes and
JON: Yeah.
What years are most of these?
Or does this just span
the last 40 or so some years?
JOHN BLANCHE: Nah, It's just
just the Voodoo Forest.
JON: Which is
What year was that?
JOHN BLANCHE:
A number of years,
'cause it was done
during the weekends of stuff,
and in between Games Workshop projects.
I needed to express
my own ideas,
which wasn't full of
orcs and dwarves and things.
'Cause that's fantasy.
I was on an airplane
going to Morocco once,
and I saw perfectly circular rainbows.
And I think,
"Well, they really exist.
"I can draw it, can't I?"
Drawing all these dots, it's like
takes forever. [LAUGHS]
JON:
But you enjoy it?
Yes, I wouldn't do it
if I didn't.
Every single, like, little piece
of bone and skull on this
Is this a planet,
or is it kind of a rock or just?
JOHN BLANCHE:
Who knows.
JON: He looks alive,
but he looks more like a tree.
- JOHN BLANCHE: He is a tree.
- JON: He is a tree.
JON: Does he talk?
JOHN BLANCHE:
Got a mouth.
Perhaps he does.
He goes, "here, get off."
[BOTH CHUCKLING]
"Stop riding me."
Then he goes, "woosh."
With a it looks like
a backwards broom.
- JOHN BLANCHE: It is. [CHUCKLING]
- Wow.
JON: You're just really
stirring the pot there.
[MUSIC CONTINUES,
NO AUDIO]
[JON] It's kind of surreal,
being here with John.
He has been cited
as an inspiration so much,
that he's started to become
this sort of mythical figure.
As I spoke with John,
I realized that I felt something
familiar, sentimental, even.
There was something about
being with him
and watching him draw
that sparked an old memory I had
of being with my own father.
JON: My dad probably would have,
like, gotten into this.
He got into model building,
but more like with train sets.
But it wasn't until, like,
his late, late years
and now he's just too old
for that as well.
But it was still like,
going to hobby shops,
and barely painting,
it was just collecting more.
But, this is like, you know,
the way to do it.
[JON] I remember sitting
with my dad
while he painted these
model trains so carefully,
and we would just
talk about our day.
I'd like to have
a similar experience
with my son as I did
with my dad.
Whether it's painting miniatures,
building terrain, or playing a game,
it is time spent together,
connecting, creating.
I started out on this journey
trying to understand why
people would spend their
time playing games like this.
And I think this is why.
JON: So do you play
the games sometimes?
- JOHN BLANCHE: Yes.
- Oh you do?
Yeah. As long as other people
who know the rules
- Yes.
- tell me what to do.
And you
so you're a rule abider,
you like to follow the rules?
- No.
- No, okay.
You want to know the rules
so that you can break them.
- Yes. [CHUCKLES]
- Okay.
I just want to be
anarchic during games.
If situation looks interesting,
you can't say, "Oh it's not in
the rulebook so you can't do it" do you?
This is sort of
a parody of real life.
Of course they can do it.
[JON] I get it.
And I think
I'm ready to play a game.
- And I think I know just the one.
- [MUSIC ENDS ]
[GLOOMY ORGAN MUSIC PLAYS]
ERIC: Would you rather
have a brute or a fighter?
- What sounds more cool?
- [GROUP CHATTERING]
MAN: [LAUGHING]
He doesn't know what that means.
No, I know what a fighter
and a brute is.
It's just a bigger
strong guy who's like
- right? Yeah.
- Yeah.
Do you want a guy who's
just huge and can bash things?
No, I want a fighter.
I've done brute.
I've been I've been
down brute alley before
it's time to
time to do something else.
ERIC: You've got
a scavenger, a scout and a fighter.
MAN: You get given a list of
different models you can pick.
And you said you wanted
to use the fighter over the brute, right?
Something spoke to you about that.
So, you put a little bit of
yourself into the list,
and that's helping you
get involved in the story.
And then you're choosing
what weapons.
So it's less about, okay,
I'm going to pick this one because
it's going to allow me to win.
It's more about I'm going to pick this one
'cause it's pretty cool.
Like I think
when I initially built this guy,
I was like, he's an assassin.
I want him to have two hatchets,
not because it's
going to enable me to win,
it's just because I wanted a guy
with two hatchets
and a little tinpot helmet.
The key thing for me is,
I'm 100% not a rules person.
If somebody says
they want to do something,
and I think it's fun, I'm like,
f*cking do it.
- What if I'm like
- Let's see what happens,
- or let's roll the dice
- here, and this guy's like, okay,
now I win the game?
That's cool, but then,
you know,
- you're not gonna
- You're pretty cool about that?
- That's well
- Loosey-goosey rules.
Two Two reasons for that.
You can play again, right?
And if that person
does that repeatedly,
- then you're not
- Why does he keep winning?
- You're not gonna play with that.
-The guy's cool with just saying we win.
It's so I guess the point
is it's not
for me, it's more a narration,
and the chance to
connect to somebody.
So, I probably wouldn't play
with the type of person
who would who would do that
in the first place.
So, cheating is not really
something you can do
in the game, is it?
If you care about winning,
it's probably not the right
- game or scene.
- Oh, okay.
I remember someone told me
they enjoyed losing in this game.
It's less about exploring
the mechanics
and it's more about
exploring the narrative,
- and telling the story,
- JON: Okay. Let's do that.
and having a nice experience.
All right, all right,
let's do that.
[STRING MUSIC PLAYS]
MATTHEW: So we roll
Yeah, roll for initiative.
- MATTHEW: I roll a five.
- JON: Four. Five.
It doesn't matter what you do,
because I'm gonna win
in the end. I already
know this is gonna be easy.
MATTHEW:
You can feel it, good.
I'm gonna choose to
activate my scout,
so we're gonna hop
and skip over to the resource cache.
Okay, so it's my turn. So I'm gonna
I'm going to get my scout
That's my scout,
and he's right next to the cache,
so I might as well try
to open that up.
- So it's a 4 up?
- MATTHEW: Yeah.
Oh, that's a skill.
Skill, to open up a cache is a skill.
- MATTHEW: Skill check, yeah.
- JON: All right.
[JON GROANS]
- All right.
- So now I'm going to, uh
go with my assassin,
and he's the guy over here, right?
And then I'm going to use the scale
action to get to the top.
- And this is the real game now,
getting your hand into the intricate
places to move the model.
[ERIC LAUGHING]
[MELLOW SYNTH MUSIC PLAYS]
JON: Oh, it's got to
stay on the board.
- [JON GRUNTS]
- MATTHEW: But look, you made it,
- because, like, so again
- I didn't make it. It was a one.
MATTHEW: Yeah, but for me,
it's cooler and more interesting
if you get up there than if
you fall down into the swamp.
- MATTHEW: If you were going to fall into the
- It's cool if he's like
Yes, but like,
then then it's not a game.
Like, I could have won,
I fought with all that
MATTHEW: It's fine.
I I'm cool either way.
[STUTTERS] Then let's do this.
Let's see, let's go half way.
He jumps. He's holding on.
He's like, oh my gosh.
Oh my gosh.
It's like, then he does
a sweet backflip
while he's going up,
and surprising this guy
'cause like,
he's just a scavenger.
- How did he learn that James Bond sh*t?
- Woah.
And that is 100% how
you play skirmish games,
- Okay.
- absolutely, 'cause the narrative
It's just kind of like whatever
the guys are, like, cool with essentially.
All right. He made it.
I rolled a six.
You did six for an arrow?
A piercing blow?
That doesn't sound good.
One.
Like it's one friendly just dying.
No, he's back down.
[IMITATES AGONIZED GROAN]
I'm down to one.
[IMITATES WHOOSHING, REPEATED BEEPING]
[GRUNTS]
- He's at the top.
- MATTHEW: Awesome.
[MUSIC CONTINUES, NO AUDIO]
So he's going
pushing up against here,
kind of, he jumps,
by using his momentum,
he's like
[IMITATES PUNCHING SOUND, GROANS]
And he he gets pushed.
So now,
you show me what happens.
MATTHEW: Yeah, so the emphasis
on me is to roll a skill check.
[MUSIC CONTINUES, NO AUDIO]
- die.
- They're not weighted, I promise.
That's what's happening.
[JON YELLING]
Okay, so he's there.
He's gonna push.
- Okay so final roll.
- ERIC: No pressure.
Oh my gosh!
He won't die.
[JON] As the game went on, the rules
started to fade into the background.
The rounds started to
feel less rigid, and
we started to get
more and more into the story
of these little guys.
And then,
the really nerdy thing is, is when
you and your friend are at
the water cooler,
talking about like, dude,
when when my scavenger hit
and then [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
and people are like, "okay."
It's the experience, right?
That's it, formative memories.
But you Yeah, you're like
talking as if these were, like,
total, like, real people you ran into,
and you caught up with,
or you had a weird,
you know, exchange with them,
and you're really just
talking about your toys,
and what happened in this game.
Yeah, you're talking about
the story and the narrative
that was developed during game play.
- Yeah. Yeah.
- A communal experience.
[JON] The game took
a couple of hours,
but as soon as it was done,
I wanted to play again.
All that effort that goes into making
and sculpting the miniatures,
crafting the terrain,
and creating a game to play,
it all culminates in
a couple of hours playing a game.
[MUSIC CONTINUES, NO AUDIO]
And that effort
doesn't diminish that.
If anything, that effort is
what makes the game
worth playing in the first place.
JON: Obviously,
starting out on this trip,
I didn't know a lot about grimdark,
what it was.
We set out to meet
some of the people behind this
movement, behind this art,
- to find key figures,
- [MUSIC ENDS ]
we met a lot of
interesting people.
It really was kind of born out of,
um, organically out of
what people just felt
was kind of there all along.
While it has a very dark aesthetic to it,
you you feel the joy,
um, and the giddiness,
that comes from these super fans.
And it's kind of nice
putting a name to it,
because it kind of helps
create that sense of community.
You can talk to someone,
and it's
and you can communicate very quickly
that you're kind of see
seeing and feeling
the same thing as someone else.
So again, it's, you know,
when you put a word,
create a title like that,
it can really
to me it's more about,
like, creating that community.
Which is very
bright
and light.
Not grim and dark.
JOHN BLANCHE: Life's interesting.
[THOUGHTFUL MUSIC PLAYS]
There's lots to be
amazed by and explore,
in this life.
Generally, I'll be blown away
by some sort of artistic image.
And I'll just think,
I want to do a version of that.
But for me, not for anybody else.
Just for me.
Just be true to yourself.
Explore what's
what's buried in your head
that could come out
after many, many years.
There's going to be a whole raft of
tons of artists,
who are very accomplished indeed.
And you'll learn by looking
very carefully at what they do.
It makes you better.
[MUSIC FADES ]
[DARK RISING SYNTH MUSIC PLAYS]
[MUSIC FADES ]
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Grim & The Dark, The (2025)
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