02x120 - Daycare Dilemma

[bunniefuu]

- You have a daycare center.
- Correct.

You found that the baby
was bitten by her little one?

Yes, ma'am.

I think they're supposed
to be separated, correct?

She left out of the room
is what she told me, judge.

There's only one me.

It's a big responsibility
to take care of little children.

[narrator]
This is Judy Justice.

[narrator] Shanece Grimm is suing
her client, Dallas Lee,

for child services, late fees,
and property damage.

[bailiff]
Court come to order. All rise.

Have a seat, please.

Hello, judge.
Case 2175, Grimm versus Lee.

- [Judy] Thank you very much.
- [bailiff] You're welcome.

- Ms. Grimm, in what state do you live?
- Missouri.

- [Judy] In what county?
- Jackson.

- You have a daycare center.
- An in-home childcare, yes.

- [Judy] For how long?
- I started September of 2022.

- [Judy] What is your house like?
- I have a single family home

with a finished basement
and then, like, an attic type...

it's two bedrooms.

- [Judy] House has two bedrooms?
- No, up in the attic has two bedrooms

It's technically a three bedroom house
but it has made six rooms.

And how many children do you have?

I currently have seven.

How old are they?

Fourteen, thirteen, eleven,
eight, five, and three,

and eighteen months.

Three and eighteen months?

I'm sorry, she's four now,
she just turned four.

[Judy]
So the older ones go to school.

- Does the five year old go to school?
- [Grimm] Yes.

[Judy] And the eight year old
goes to school.

- Correct.
- So you have two little ones at home.

My four year old goes
to early childhood half the day.

So you have one child
at home during the day?

Correct.

- And one half a day?
- Yes.

- [Judy] And you have three children?
- Yes, ma'am.

How old are they?

I now have a three year old,
a one year old, and a five month old.

[Judy] And those were the children
you enrolled in her daycare center?

- Yes, ma'am.
- [Judy] Ms. Grimm,

what kind of licensing do you have,
an application that you have to make

in order to run an in-home
daycare center in Missouri?

So in the state of Missouri,
as long as you have under six children,

you do not have to have a license.

As long as you have six children

- in total in the house? Or 6 children...
-That I'm watching.

- [Judy] That you're watching.
- Correct.

Cause my school children
are not considered watching,

like, under the law.

Well, you certainly have to watch
your eighteen month old.

Yes, he's the only one, that's why
I've always kept five children or less.

[Judy] It is you claim that Ms. Lee
entered her children into your program,

she paid you for a certain period of time,
she owes you for two weeks.

- Correct.
- And were those two weeks

two weeks that her children
were actually in care?

- Correct.
- [Judy] Which two weeks were those?

[Grimm]
They are the last two weeks of October.

- [Judy] Of 2022?
- Correct.

[Judy]
And the children were in your program?

- Correct.
- [Judy] Ms. Lee,

were the children in Ms. Grimm's program

the last two weeks in October?

- Yes, ma'am, they were.
- [Judy] Did you pay her

for the last two weeks in October?

-No, ma'am, I did not.

[Judy] How much were you
supposed to pay her?

For the last two weeks was supposed
to be $600,

because our agreement
was 600 every two weeks.

[Judy]
Okay, so it was supposed to be $600.

- Yes, ma'am.
- [Judy] So now the ball is in your court.

So far, Ms. Grimm,
we're not talking about a late fee,

we're just talking about these two weeks.

- Correct.
- First, tell me your reason

for removing the children.

I removed my children out of her care
because my children,

every time that I picked them up,
it was either they were harmed,

or injured, or my son,
my three year old, would tell me

something had happened while
I was gone at work in her care.

My son had told me
on numerous accounts

that she hit him herself,

and that he also told me that

her 15-year-old son... or 14, I'm sorry...

had also spanked him.

And when I did ask him, well,
I asked her, actually,

I said "who is Trey?"

Because he said, "Mommy, Trey hit me."

We were getting in the car,

they normally do help me
get in the car with my three children,

seeing I have one who's barely walking...

You're getting, you're going
all over the place.

Yes, ma'am. So they normally
help me get in the car with my children

so they were outside with us,
and my son said

"Mommy, Trey hit me like this."

I didn't know any Trey,
so I asked her, "Who is Trey?"

And she said, "That's my son,"
and he said, "That's me,"

he was standing right there next to her,
he said, "I'm Trey."

And I said,
"Bryson said that you hit him,"

and he said "Yes, I hit Bryson."

He said, "I popped him
because Bryson wasn't doing right,

Bryson didn't wanna go to timeout."

- On what day was that?
- [Lee] That was on October 25th.

And what was the last day
that your children attended?

- October 27th.
-Okay, so despite the fact

- that Trey... You're Trey?
- Yes, ma'am.

[Judy] Slapped the three year old,
said that he slapped the three year old...

- [Lee] Mm-hmm.
- You let him stay there

for an extra two days?

- Yes, ma'am.
- [Judy] Just, it's that... Yes.

Now, where were you working
that you had your children in daycare?

- I was working as a CNA.
- [Judy] What is that?

A certified nurses assistant.

- Where?
- It's a, um, rehab...

- Nursing home?
- Yes, ma'am.

- [Judy] When did you start working there?
-I started working there in September.

- [Judy] September of 2022?
- Yes, ma'am.

- [Judy] Beginning of September?
- [Lee] Yes, ma'am.

And when did you stop working there?

[Lee]
I stopped working there October 27th.

That was my last day.

If I were to call, would they tell me
that they terminated you or you quit?

- I quit.
- [Judy] Did you quit on the 27th?

[Lee]
Yes, ma'am.

[Judy] And what about now,
are you working?

- I am.
- Who're you working for?

I work through a temp agency,

working per diem
at different locations as a CNA.

And who takes care of your children?

- My stepmom. My children, I...
- [Judy] Just a second.

And when did you start that job?

[Lee]
I started that job about four weeks ago.

- So in December.
- [Lee] Yes, ma'am.

Late November or so.

You left the children there
until the end of October.

It couldn't have been
so disturbing for you, madam,

to leave the children there until
the end of October, another six weeks,

if you felt as if they weren't
getting adequate care.

And if you did, that would be on you!

[narrator] Shanece Grimm claims
her client, Dallas Lee,

refused to pay for childcare services.

Dallas is counter-suing for lost wages

and emotional distress.

So a relative has been taking care
of your children.

Yes, ma'am. Not all three of them.

I had to send my two sons,
because I had to rearrange

my daycare situation, I had to send them
back to Texas to be with their dad.

So two of them went back to their father.

-Yes, ma'am.
- [Judy] And who do you live with here?

- I live with my dad.
- [Judy] What does he do?

[Lee]
My dad is a nuclear medicine technologist.

So your step mom takes care
of one of the children...

My five-month-old daughter. Yes, ma'am.

- [Judy] Who's in the house.
-Mm-hmm.

Now you're gonna tell me why
you didn't pay her for the last two weeks.

So, my children began
in her care September 12th.

September 13th she sent me
a text message while I was at work,

and she said, "I want to let you know
little mama was bit today

by my one year old on her cheek."

She sent me a picture, I have this.

Not interested.
It's not that I'm disinterested,

it's that, don't show me anything
from September, madam,

you kept your children
with her into October,

and through the end of October.

And if anything was so concerning to you

that you thought your children
would be at risk, I'm certain that you

would've discussed it with your father,
and your father would've said to you...

-May I?
- [Judy] Don't speak.

- Okay.
- [Judy] And your father would've said

to you, if you have a problem
with the children,

don't let them stay there.
What you did...

Okay, I can see that you're dying
to tell me something, what?

Yes, ma'am.

My daughter had no other choice
but to keep her children in care,

because I work a full time job.

[Judy]
Let me explain something to you, sir.

[Judy]
Your daughter was living with you?

- Yes, ma'am.
- [Judy] Right.

There is always an alternative, sir.

I have young grandchildren,
and I would say

if I was legitimate, legitimately

concerned for their health and safety,
I don't care what it is,

stay home and take care of your children,
you'll have a roof over your head

until you find appropriate daycare.

And if didn't do that,
then you're not much of a grandfather.

- Well...
- [Judy] You can't use

something that happened in September

or early October to say, "Well, that's why
I didn't pay the last two weeks."

- May I speak?
- You can't make,

you can't make excuses, sir,
I'm telling you. I'm a grandmother,

and I've had little children,
I don't care what you had to do,

quit my job, whatever that job is,

and say, well I'll stay home and take care
of the children until you find,

or you stay home
and take care of the children,

I'll provide you with whatever basics
you need until you get the right daycare.

And if you didn't do that, don't tell me
that your daughter didn't have a choice.

- There is always a choice...
- She did not have a choice.

...where your babies are concerned.

[Gary]
In our estimation, at that time,

we were giving her some hard life lessons,

cause she does now have three children,

and there are gonna be some difficulties

in this living situation,
and there are gonna be some things.

So what we were doing, we were giving her
some tough love, and saying

"Hey, you cannot give up
just because the chips are down

or because things happened,
you gotta try to figure things out."

Well that would be on you,
that's not on her.

This is not her daughter,
it's your daughter.

- [Gary] Absolutely.
- [Judy] And your grandchildren, sir.

- [Gary] Absolutely.
- [Judy] And if you wanna teach her

some real hard lessons, and say,
"You've gotta stay with the daycare

even though you're dissatisfied..."

We said, "Give her a chance,"
cause it was the first day.

It was the first incident, the first day,
we said "Give her a chance."

Things happen sometimes.

What I don't want to hear is from you,
who seemed like a very intelligent man...

- Yes, ma'am.
- [Judy] ... a working man,

is my daughter had no choice.

Your daughter has a choice.
Her choice is to say to you,

"Dad, please, I have to find
the right daycare,

I have to stop working at this job.
I may need a month."

You may not have liked
her previous irresponsible behavior...

- Right?
- Correct.

But the deed is done.
She's got three young children.

- Beautiful children.
- [Judy] Right?

So what you do is, when you have
three young beautiful children

- you protect them.
- [Gary] Absolutely.

And if you're not smart enough
to protect them yourself

you gotta rely on your father
who's smart enough to do that.

What I'm saying to you is,
your daughter used this lady's services

and she has to pay for it.

She may not send her children back,

but your statement that you were
so anxious to make to me,

which is, "My daughter had no choice..."
She did have a choice, sir.

She did have a choice.
Before I would let my children

stay in a place
where I actually believed,

believed that they were being abused,

cause that's what she's suggesting...

I mean, she's not suggesting
that this young man, who I'm not condoning

hitting a three year old,
gave him a slap on the rear end,

I'm not condoning that,
but there were no injuries to him,

I don't know whether you've done it,

I don't know whether
she's done it to her child

you certainly don't want
a daycare provider's child

-to discipline a three year old...
- [Gary] Absolutely.

- [Judy] That's not what it's about.
- But after the first incident

what we were trying to teach her is that
you don't just throw in the towel,

because Ms. Grimm was just starting
her service up, and...

- September 5th.
- ...So we understand that

there are gonna be some hiccups

and some things that she has to fix

- as she comes across them.
- Mm-hmm.

[Gary] So, she's a young lady,
my daughter's a young lady,

so as an older man,
I'm trying to support two individuals

to build their lives up.

And so I told my daughter,
"I don't like that she was bitten,

but at least she came forward
very quickly and told you,

so leave them there for now,
and if anything else transpires,

then we can start to look at things then."

- Yes, ma'am.
- Who do you work for, sir?

- I work for the Veteran's Administration.
- [Judy] And how long have you worked

for the Veteran's Administration?

Twenty-one years.

Do you get paid every two weeks?

- Yes, ma'am.
- [Judy] Let's say your boss

at the VA all of a sudden decided

they didn't like the work you were doing.

And you left and they owed
you two weeks pay,

cause you had actually worked
for the two weeks.

- Absolutely.
- [Judy] And you sued them

for those two weeks.

- Mm-hmm.
- [Judy] You worked there.

Say, "well, we didn't like the quality
oh his work for those two weeks."

Well, then you fire him,

but you pay him.
It's like going to a restaurant.

My favorite analogy is,
you go into your favorite restaurant

- where you get a steak.
- [Gary] Mm-hmm.

[Judy] And you order a steak medium,
Pittsburgh medium.

Steak comes, you cut into it,
you take a bite.

"Oh my god," you say, "I don't like
the way this tastes."

You take the plate, you spit out
the bite if you're smart,

call the waiter over and say,
"This is a bad steak."

- Right?
- Absolutely.

[Judy] And the waiter takes it off
the bill or you order something else.

Now, you cut into that same steak,
you taste, you say, "This tastes terrible,

maybe the next bite will taste better."

Before you know it,
you've finished the whole steak.

Waiter comes over
to take your clean plate,

you say, "The steak was awful,
I didn't like it. It was bad."

Well, what'd you eat it for?

But if you ate the steak,
you gotta pay for it.

If you take a bite and say it's no good,

I'm in your corner, send it back.

But your daughter ate the steak.
She used her services for two weeks.

- And didn't pay her.
- [Gary] Well, we can't say

that she used her services.

Because there are other pieces
of evidence that we have.

She didn't... You mean, you're talking
about that sometimes she left the children

- with her husband?
- [Lee] Yeah.

Yeah, baloney.
Your daughter had the benefit

of daycare so that she could work.

If you're not satisfied with a service
you stop using the service.

If you continue to use the service despite
the fact that you're not satisfied with it

you gotta pay for it. That's America.

You got paid, your father got paid,

she gets paid.

[narrator] Shanece Grimm has accused
her client, Dallas Lee,

of refusing to pay for childcare services.

Dallas claims Shanece wrongfully
disciplined and neglected her children.

Your daughter had the benefit of daycare
so that she could work.

- Absolutely.
- [Judy] And she had the benefit

of daycare from this lady

that enabled your daughter
to make money...

But if we're talking breach of contract,
the contract was breached

when the husband watched the child, and...

Now you're not teaching
your daughter responsibility.

Now you're making excuses.

Now you're not teaching
your daughter responsibility.

Your daughter worked to make money.

You worked those last two weeks,
didn't stay home with your grandchildren.

- You made money.
- Absolutely.

The only one that didn't make money,

and had her three children
for those two weeks, was the plaintiff.

She ate the steak, she used the service.

She didn't have anybody else. It's not
as if, well, I had to hire somebody else

to take care of the kids the last
two weeks even though it was in my deal,

so that's why I'm not paying.

She worked, you worked, she worked!

And if her husband, if she ran out
to the store and left her husband,

unless you're telling me that that was
such a breach of the agreement

that your daughter took the children
out of her program.

Did she? No. She did not.

She didn't say,
"I'm not allowing your husband

to take care of my children,
even if it's just for an hour.

I'm taking my children
out of the program.

Dad, can you help me out
for the next couple of weeks

until I find something else?"

But you can't eat the steak,
which she did. Now you can sit down.

- Can I say one more thing?
- Not if you wanna continue

to look foolish. Now you're not teaching
her responsibility.

- Well...
- Now you're not

teaching her responsibility.

I don't wanna have
to teach you responsibility.

Well, you don't have to. I'm a veteran,
I know what responsibility is.

But when you are promoting
your program as one thing

but your service is another,
I cannot say that...

If Bobby Flay is cooking the steak...

It doesn't matter who's cooking the steak.

It was whether you ate the steak.

- It's whether you ate the steak.
- I get what you're saying, judge,

but if it's promoted
as Bobby Flay cooking it,

and Bob Herbert cooked it,

and I don't like the taste,
then those are two separate things.

[Judy]
Just a second. Oh, no, no, no sir.

If you're promoting Bobby Flay
as cooking the steak, or the hamburger,

and you find out Bobby Flay's
younger brother was cooking the steak,

- or was cooking the burger...
- Mm-hmm.

[Judy] And, either way, if the burger's
no good you're not gonna eat it.

But you can't eat it and say,
"Well, I really thought I was getting

a Bobby Flay hamburger,
and I didn't get a Bobby Flay hamburger

so I'm not gonna pay for it.

Even though I ate it.
Now you can sit down.

How much is two weeks worth of care, $600?

- Yes, ma'am.
- [Judy] Judgement for the plaintiff $600.

You have a counter claim.

Counter claim is ridiculous.
"Money owed for lost wages,

emotional distress
on behalf of the children."

You shouldn't have emotional distress
on behalf of the children, madam,

you're their mother.
The first time

you had an inkling that you felt
that your children, your young children,

were being neglected
in the plaintiff's care,

what you should've done was remove them.

Remove them.

First time you felt as if three year old
shouldn't have been subject of a slap

by this young man? Great, remove them.

You found that the baby, the little one,
was bitten by her little one?

You say, "That's not watching
them carefully enough,"

cause they, I think, are supposed
to be separated, correct?

- Yes.
- No, we're all in one room,

so they weren't happen to be separated,

'cause with me only having
less than four children

there was no way of separating,
cause there was only one me.

It's a big responsibility
to take care of little children.

- Correct.
- [Lee] My daughter shouldn't have been

- in his reach. She did tell me...
- [Judy] I absolutely agree with you.

She left out of the room
is what she told me, judge.

So that's actually not true. She told me
that she left out of the room

and went to the kitchen.

What day. Give me the date
that that happened.

September 13th.

You left the children there
until the end of October.

It couldn't have been
so disturbing for you, madam,

to leave the children there until the end
of October, another six weeks,

if you felt as if
they weren't getting adequate care.

And if you did, that would be on you!

And maybe a little bit on your father,
because if you told him about it,

said, "Oh my god, that's terrible,
take my child out right away,

all three of 'em," but you didn't.

You left them in there September 13th,


all the way up to the end of September
and the end of October.

That's on you.

Actually, she did not have them
in the end of September

'cause she was suspended from her job.

So they were gone for two weeks
in September.

[Judy]
Were you suspended from your job?

- I was. I had...
- [Judy] Just, just... That's my question.

You were suspended from your job.

When you were suspended from your job,
did you take the children out of daycare?

- Yes, ma'am.
- [Judy] Okay, and that's reasonable.

She didn't give you a problem
with that, I assume.

[Lee] No.

[Judy]
And you didn't pay for those two weeks.

I did not.

[Judy] Great, well these two weeks
you're gonna pay for, because...

I don't believe I owe her anything.

I don't care what you believe.
If you're not listening

to what I'm saying to you
and you're fixed in your opinion

that means you haven't learned anything.

Your father tried to teach you
a little bit of tough love.

What I'm telling you is,
if you work you get paid.

If you're not satisfied with the service,
you stop using the service.

If you continue to use the service
despite the fact

that you're not satisfied with it

you gotta pay for it. That's America.

You got paid, your father got paid,
she gets paid.

She didn't get paid for the two weeks
you took your kids out,

didn't say to you,
"Well, you have to pay me anyway,

I have to keep this open for you."

That was very fair.

Took the kids out, didn't pay.
You left your kids in, you pay.

Six hundred dollars,
your counter claim is dismissed.

We're finished.

[bailiff]
This court is adjourned.

I am a little upset
she didn't see things my way.

The judge was kind of in my favor
for the majority of it.

You know, her leaving my children
in the care of her 15-year-old son

and also her husband.

Then why did she continue bringing
her children to me for another month?

Also my son letting me know that,
you know, she hit him.

I have never touched her children, I could
take a lie detector test to prove it.

It was pretty difficult for me,
because I didn't have any other choices,

I didn't have anyone else
who could help me with keeping

all three of my children while I worked.

She actually never gave me excuses,

she actually just told me
she was gonna pay me.

Life is not easy.

If you work, you should get paid.

But you get back up and you keep moving.

My generation, I'm not sure about yours,
I haven't had much experience in yours,

but in mine, I think we confuse
having to make a hard choice

with being out of options.

Here, I felt for the defendant

She had to make a hard choice.

But even when her father came up
and felt the need to burst out and say,

"My daughter had no options,
she had no choice."

Well, she did have a choice.
It was a hard choice,

you had to send your two older sons
to live with their father,

and find a sort of mediocre at best
childcare situation,

but you made the choice
to have those three children,

and when you have children
you make a commitment

to make the hard choices to benefit them.

- In their best interest.
- In their best interest.

And if you're not prepared to do that,
then you shouldn't become a parent.

In any event, I tried to make
my steak analogy, it didn't...

I thought it was great.
I had a great time.

- Great, I'm glad you did.
- I thought it was a good lesson.

Thank you.

[narrator]
Want justice?