01x09 - Tween Braces

[bunniefuu]

You have an 11-year-old little girl.

Yes.

You told your daughter,
"You're going to get braces."

I'm a single mom and I could not afford
to do braces by myself.

Is he supposed to pay?

Yes.

It's simple. I have other things
to do today.

[narrator]
This is Judy Justice.

[theme music playing]

Shawntia McCants is suing
her former boyfriend,

Kellin Frazier, for the cost of
their daughter's braces

and travel expenses.

[Kevin]
Court come to order! All rise!

[Judy]
Have a seat, please.

Case 1010, McCants versus Frazier.

Ms. McCants, I gather
that you fell in love with this guy

-a long time ago, for a short time.
-I did.

I gather from the papers
that you were in high school?

-I was.
-[Judy] The relationship was short-lived,

but the product of that was
now an 11-year-old little girl,

who I assume both of you adore.

Yes.

[Judy] Is this your only child,
or do you have others?

[crying] She's my only.

-[Judy] And you, sir?
-I have two more.

Are the two other children that you
have currently living with you?

-Yes.
-[Judy] Okay.

-And are you remarried?
-No.

Just so that I know
a little bit more about you.

Ms. McCants, you're employed?

-Part time.
-[Judy] What kind of work do you do?

I'm an assistant director
on music videos.

[Judy]
And you, sir?

I work at a factory, a bagel factory.

The issue in the case has to do
with two things.

-Your daughter's name is Vanessa?
-Yes.

And it has to do with Vanessa's braces,

and then an airline ticket,
which I can get to later.

You both live in different jurisdictions,
and I gather, Mr. Frazier,

that you and Ms. McCants,
despite the fact

that you've probably had
some bumpy issues,

you've maintained a close
relationship with your daughter.

Oh, yes, definitely.

-And you visit her, or she visits you?
-Yes...

How many times a year
does she visit you?

Uh, every other holiday, and I
get her for the summer for six weeks.

Is that an agreement that you two
came to by yourselves,

-or did it involve court intervention?
-Court.

And how long has that order been in place?

Since 2018.

And there's been visitation
consistently since?

-Yes.
-[Judy] Great.

-[Kellin] Yes. Yes.
-Well, that's terrific.

I applaud you, because
that's good for your daughter.

-Yes.
-[Judy] Yeah.

Tell me about the issue of the braces,
Ms. McCants.

Last summer, in 2020, my daughter

-went for her visit...
-[Judy] Do you need a minute?

No, I'm sorry.

Do you need a tissue?

-[Shawntia] Yes, I'm sorry.
-Yes.

Kevin.

-Here you go. Mm-hmm.
-[Shawntia] Thank you.

Okay. She went for her visit,
and she asked her dad

what was wrong with her teeth,
because when she was a little girl,

she fell off her bike and messed up
her teeth, or so she thought,

and she had asked him
what was wrong with her,

you know, why her teeth
looked like that, basically.

And he said, "You have ugly teeth
like your mom..."

-Not true, not true.
-[Judy] Just a second. Just a second.

A, I honestly don't believe that he said
to a child that he loves,

"You have ugly teeth like your mom."

She's not here to tell me
that that's what he said,

so I'm just telling you,
I'm not quite sure.

She texted me what he said
when he said it.

-[Judy] Do you have it?
-I do.

[Judy]
I'd like to take a look at it.

"Ugly teeth like your mom."
I never said that.

[Judy laughing]
If you're talking to yourself...

-I'm sorry. I would never say that.
-Mr. Frazier, not helpful.

Ma'am.

-Before Vanessa went to see her dad...
-[Shawntia sniffles]

had you discussed her teeth with her?

-No.
-[Judy] Ever?

No. [sniffles]

[sighs]

There's nothing in here that that says
that he told her she had ugly teeth.

Um... I thought it was in that one.

According to this, she had a conversation
with her father about her teeth

and how they might've gotten that way.
Did he drop her,

-did she fall off her bike?
-Right.

Mom told me this, told me that,
and he said you probably need braces.

And she wrote to you and said
don't tell Dad.

You wrote back that
"you have a beautiful smile

and we're going to get you braces
so that you can look even better.

He's just mad no one took care of him
the way I take care of you.

He's a sad man..."
It's typical separated parents and...

But there's nowhere where he said ug...
I couldn't imagine,

-somebody who has...
-Not at all.

[Judy] ...a regular, consistent
relationship with a child,

told this child that in any way
she was ugly,

using that word. In any event,
based upon what you gave me, here,

you told your daughter, in this text,
"Don't worry, you're going to get braces."

That's what you say to her.
Okay, and that's what this case is about,

who's supposed to pay for the braces.

Okay, let me hear what happened.
Then she came home.

She came home and, like I said, she...

I don't want you to tell me anymore
what your daughter said

that you can't confirm to me
in some sort of a written document,

because that's hearsay. I'm assuming,
for the purposes of this case,

that the first time braces were mentioned,
according to you,

was during this visit with her father?

-Yes.
-And the subject of her teeth came up,

and he said, "No,
you have your mom's teeth,

both y'all need braces."
Does that sound right, sir?

Uh, I don't... I think I said it like that,
I'm not sure.

Okay. So, both of you need braces,
you have your mom's teeth.

Okay, and she's 11 and she's getting to
that age where she's being self-conscious

about, probably, a whole bunch of things.
All of that, not unusual.

So now, before I get to
the strict issue of braces,

I assume that if you're in court, and
if you're in court as recently as 2018,

and you have visitation with your daughter
every other holiday

and during the summers,
there is also a support order in place.

-Yes.
-And can you tell me

what that support order is, Mr. Frazier?

Yes. I pay, uh, $500 every month.

-You pay $500 every month.
-[Kellin] Yeah, for child support.

Are you consistent now
in your child support payments?

Are you up to date?

I haven't missed a date in, like,
ten years, I've been paying.

-That's not true.
-Are there current arrears in that order?

-Yes.
-[Judy] And what are the arrears?

Thirteen hundred.

Okay. Well, over a long period of time,
$1,300, he's...

So, he's relatively current
in his child support order.

Is there anything else that's provided
in the judge's order

with regard to medical, dental,
or any unusual expenses,

other than the $500 a month?

It says, "All uninsured health expenses

exceeding the annual
ordinary medical amount

will be paid 40 percent by the Plaintiff
and 60 percent by the Defendant."

May I see it, please? Kevin?

It says, "All uninsured
healthcare expenses

exceeding the annual
ordinary medical amount,"

which the court fixes at $403,

"will be paid for 40 percent by the
Plaintiff," she was the Plaintiff.

-[Kellin] Right.
-"...and 60% by the Defendant."

Yes, uh, but I didn't think it was
a necessary medical...

-We'll get to that in a minute.
-[Kellin] Okay.

Whether it was necessary or not,
we're gonna get to in a second,

based on upon some things
that I'm looking at.

But now, I want you to tell me,
Ms. McCants,

what conversation did you have with
her father, with regard to the braces?

I don't talk to her dad, he doesn't
respond to my text messages, usually,

so I talk to my daughter
and she will text her dad.

So, she's like our go-between
for conversations...

Oh, that's unfortunate.

-It is, it's really sad.
-That's not true.

-Shh!
-[Kellin] I'm sorry.

[theme music playing]

[Judy]
That's not his signature.

He signed for the braces...

[Judy]
That's not his signature.

You don't have to be a handwriting expert
to look at the signature on his answer...

-No, I understand, he...
-[Judy] ...and this is not his signature.

[theme music playing]

[narrator]
Shawntia McCants says ex-boyfriend

Kellin Frazier owes for their
daughter's braces and an airline ticket.

So, what you're telling me is that
you never had a direct conversation

with Mr. Frazier about
his participation in the braces.

That's correct. I do have
the text messages from my daughter

-of what he said...
-[Judy] No,

I don't want to see text messages
from your daughter, what he said.

If you have a text message from him
agreeing to pay for more than

what is allocated in
the child support order, I will see that.

But I don't want to see
your daughter's interpretation...

No, I absolutely understand, Your Honor.

-Okay, great.
-So, okay, I have text messages

between him and I as well, but...

I just want to see...
Your position is that he said to you,

this is what you say in your complaint,
if you pay the down payment,

-he'll make the rest of the payments.
-That's exactly what he said.

That's what I want to see. Not that your
daughter said he said, but what he said.

-No, that's direct text messages.
-[Judy] From him to...

Yes, to his daughter.

-He even signed...
-[Judy] Shh-shh!

No. This is a child having
a conversation with her father.

And this is a discussion about
the down payment of $500.

-That... That's part of it...
-And she says...

Just a sec, that's part of it.

And she's saying, "I just want my braces

and I don't like being
in the middle of this."

That's the 11-year-old saying.
And then, Mr. Frazier says to her,

"Tell her to pay the $500 and
I will cover the monthly payments."

That's what he says.
"Okay, she says she will do that,

but you need to call and
give the credit card information

so they can get started
at 2:30 p.m. today.

They can't get started without
your information first."

And you said to her, "Give me the number
who I have to talk to."

And her dad's saying, "That's why
I don't like doing business with her,

she just said that she would make
the down payment. I'm not paying half.

I have to pay over $4,000 to her $500."

-So, there's more...
-Yes, Your Honor.

-Please let me explain. Okay.
-[Judy] Yeah.

So, what happened was,
my daughter said that...

No, you can't tell me what your daughter...

The problem is, you can't tell me what
your daughter said.

When I was talking to her, we were
talking about the braces.

-[Judy] Who was?
-My daughter and I.

I don't care whether your daughter and
you were talking about the braces.

You can't tell me what your daughter said.
It's hearsay.

I was telling my daughter

-what to say on the phone.
-I don't... I don't care.

It's hearsay.

It's hearsay. Let me tell you
about an oral contract,

because you don't have a written contract.

An oral contract has to have
all of the elements

that a written contract does.

And you don't make that through
an intermediary who's 11 years old.

You just don't do that.
It's clear from this that it was unclear.

According to this, which is your order,
because what you are attempting to do,

Ms. McCants, is modify the judicial order,
which requires him to pay 60 percent.

-No, ma'am. No, ma'am. Please.
-[Judy] Yeah.

Please, may I explain, please?

[Judy] You can, if you
can do it without hearsay.

Okay. Okay. This was not
a court-ordered agreement.

This was something that
I told Vanessa

that I was not able to pay for braces,
I could not afford it by myself.

I'm a single mom and
I take care of her by myself.

-That's not true.
-I do get child support,

and it does help,
but it does not cover all of our bills.

So I explained to Vanessa,
I could not afford to do braces by myself.

Was that before or after
she went to visit her father?

That was after.

Okay, and you left it up to an 11-year-old
to communicate with her father.

What I'm telling you, Ms. McCants,
is I understand your position.

and believe me,
I'm sympathetic with your position,

-but this is a court.
-Yes, ma'am.

And right now, what you have is
a judicial order that's signed.

And it says that the Defendant,

and I don't know whether
he's paid 60 percent...

-He has not.
-[Judy] Okay.

-I have proof I have, for Your Honor.
-Just a second.

That's stage number three of this case.

That's the judicial order.
And I'm telling you now

that using an 11-year-old
to act as a go-between,

unless you have had
direct conversations with her,

to modify a court order and relying on
hearsay is something we can't do in court.

-We just can't.
-No, I do understand, Your Honor.

What I'm... What I would really,
am trying to say is,

when she got home,
I told her I could not...

-[Judy] That's hearsay.
-That's hearsay, okay.

Yes. Any out-of-court statement
that you make to your daughter...

-You're trying to develop a contract-
-No, the text messages

are my contract because
that's her texting her dad.

He said, "I will not pay the down payment.
I will pay the $4,000 for your braces."

Her braces came up to $5,079.
If I paid $500, that leaves $4,500.

What the last thing that he said was...
You have to have a meeting of the minds

to have a modification of a contract.

And any modification of a written contract
really has to be in writing.

Even if I were to stretch that and say
he agreed to pay for her braces,

the last thing he says here,
"I'm not paying half."

-Half of the down payment...
-[Judy] Shh!

The last thing that he said is
"I'm not paying half.

I have to pay over $4,000 to her $500."

Right, he wasn't paying half of the down
payment. That's what he was saying.

-Well, I don't know th...
-Your Honor, please,

please, please listen.

If he's saying he has to pay
over $4,000 for her braces,

that would mean he's taking on
the responsibility of her braces.

That's what you...
It's an interpretation that you're making.

Your Honor, um...

It's an interpretation that you're making.

And I think that the mistake is,
it's really a mistake in communication,

and I don't know how to rectify that,
because it's gonna become

more complex, Mr. Frazier,
as your daughter gets older.

-Yes.
-[Judy] You know, it's clear to me,

from listening to the two of you,
especially listening to you, Ms. McCants,

that this is something that your daughter,
at age 11, wanted.

-Yes.
-She wanted,

irrespective of what her father was...
Said, or didn't say to her.

-The ins...
-Your Honor,

I would not have paid
the down payment.

-I would not...
-[Judy] Just a second.

You're not paying attention.
This is something that an 11-year-old

felt self-conscious about and she wanted.

And she must be bright and
she must have known

that the only way that it was
gonna get done is if her father did it.

Because you made it clear to her
that you couldn't afford to pay for it.

Because she is, in fact, in these
text messages, really pleading with him

to take over the braces,
something she really wants.

I feel sorry for her. I feel sorry for her
father that he's put in this situation.

I feel especially sorry for you,
because as the child's mother,

there's no question in my mind that you
want her to grow up feeling confident.

And if this is taking away from her
confidence, that's not a good thing.

-Yes, Your Honor.
-[Judy] So, I got it.

I also would like to say, we
have been going to the orthodontist.

And so, even though you're saying
it's not a written agreement...

The agreement was, it was
I pay the down payment of $500

and he pay the monthly payment.

-I said no.
-Okay. Okay. The only thing...

The only thing that I'm going to ask
Mr. Frazier is,

that's what you understood
the agreement to be,

-is that the agreement that you made?
-No.

Mr. Frazier...

I'm sorry.

When you cancelled the ticket,
did you get the money back?

I didn't get the money back
until a week later 'cause she...

I don't care if it's a week later,
I don't care if it's next Tisha B'Av,

it doesn't matter to me,
you got the money back.

[theme music playing]

[narrator] Shawntia McCants
accuses her daughter's father

Kellin Frazier of refusing to pay for
the cost of braces and travel expenses.

Tell me what the agreement, in your mind,

was with regard to your daughter's braces.
You clearly had a discussion with her

when she was visiting with you in 2020
during the summer about the braces.

Yes, but I spoke with Shawntia.

I only promised to pay when
I could afford it, which I have.

You spoke to her directly?

[Kellin] I spoke to her
directly on the phone.

Okay. Now, Mr. Frazier,
you have to know that

I have trouble believing that
"I will pay when I can afford to pay it,"

because you're a working guy,
you have three children,

you have $500 taken out of your pay.

And the two children that you have
live with you. How old are they?

Ten, eleven and three.

-[Judy] Well, that's three children.
-Yeah, three childlren.

No, my 11-year-old
does not live with him.

-Are you counting Vanessa?
-I'm counting Vanessa, yeah.

-Okay, so they are ten and three.
-Yes.

How much was the entire dental work,
Ms. McCants?

Five thousand, seventy-nine dollars
and seventy-six cents.

-Is she finished with her dental work?
-No.

Okay, but that's the entire cost
of the braces?

-Yes.
-[Judy] Okay.

And of that, so far, Mr. Frazier has paid,
according to your records,

-how much?
-Six hundred and six dollars.

Sarah, I need 60 percent

of $5,079.

[Shawntia] Your Honor...

-I understand the court...
-[Judy] Ju-Just... Don't...

-I get 3,047.4, is that what you get?
-[Sarah] Yeah.

-[Judy] Hmm?
-Yes.

-[Shawntia] Your Honor.
-[Judy whispers] Oh, perfect!

He signed the contract for the braces.

-[Judy] Oh, I'd like to see that.
-[Kellin sighs]

[papers rustling]

You said $3,047, correct?

-Yeah.
-[Sarah] Yeah. Great.

I just put the decimal in the wrong place.
[chuckling] Thank you.

That's not his signature.

That's not his signature.

He signed for the braces.

That's not his signature.

You don't have to be a handwriting expert
to look at the signature on his answer,

No, I understand. He...

and this is not his signature.

No, I understand.
So, when I made the down payment,

they gave me this contract,
and that was the part of the contract

for the monthly payments.
You can see where it says

his debit card number
for the monthly payment.

That was on file.
That's just... my debit card was on file.

Just a second.
That's not what I asked you.

I said this is not his signature.

-Who wrote this signature?
-I signed it for him

-when I was at the orthodontist. No.
-[woman laughs]

-I had his permission to sign it.
-No, Your Honor, that's not true.

[Judy] Shh!

-I promise it is true.
-[Judy] Okay.

Sarah, let me just check my math, $3,047

-less what he paid...
-And four cents.

Less what he paid, which is $606.

Twenty-four forty-one?

Your Honor?

[Sarah] Two thousand, four hundred
forty-one dollars and four cents.

In order to modify a written court order,
which this is,

which provides that he's responsible
for any medical expenses

in excess of a certain amount,
which is a de minimus amount of money,

he is to pay 60 percent
and you are to pay 40 percent.

What I have to do is to determine
whether or not there was

such a compelling contract
between the two of you, in writing,

to modify this order,
which was signed by a judge,

that changes the logistics of this,
and I actually find that there was not.

So, Mr. Frazier, you are responsible for

an additional $2,441 to the orthodontist.

Now, let's get to this airline ticket.

The airline ticket is another part of your
lawsuit, and that involves the visit

that either did take place,
or was supposed to take place

in June of 2021. Was that for
the summer visit, Ms. McCants?

-Yes.
-And Mr. Frazier, it's your obligation

-to pay for the airline ticket?
-Yes, one way.

-How much was the airline ticket?
-Two hundred and twenty-four dollars.

You want to tell me what happened
this past summer,

why you didn't pay that $241?

I actually paid it, Your Honor,
but it was a scheduling conflict,

so I had to cancel. So, Shawntia
went along and bought the tickets herself.

I never agreed to reimburse her for that.

But I did pay for the airline ticket.

-She told me so that I'd reschedule...
-Well, wh...

Did you get to
see your daughter in June?

-Yes, she came down.
-I brought her up.

-I paid for the...
-Just a second. Did she visit with you?

-Yes.
-So, you enjoyed the visit,

but ultimately didn't pay for the ticket?

-Well, I did pay for the tickets.
-[Judy] But then you cancelled it.

-Shawntia told me to cancel.
-Yes. No, I did not.

Just a... Whether you did or not...

Listen, I'm gonna get to
the dessert of this case

and you all want to start
with the appetizer.

The dessert of this case has to do with

a $224 airline ticket.

-Yes.
-[Judy] Well, if it was unused,

that's one thing, but you got to
enjoy your daughter's company

-for that visit.
-Yes, yes.

Yeah, well, and it was your agreement,

-and it has been your agreement...
-I have proof that I paid for the tickets.

He... He... He bought tickets
and cancelled them.

'Cause she said it was
a scheduling conflict...

Okay, just a...
There was a scheduling conflict.

-[Kellin] Yeah, and...
-If you... Mr. Frazier...

I'm sorry.

When you cancelled the ticket
did you get the money back?

I didn't get the money back
until a week later, 'cause she...

I don't care if it's a week later,
I don't care if it's next Tisha B'Av,

it doesn't matter to me,
you got the money back.

And she paid for the ticket,

-and you had visitation.
-I did.

It's simple, that's dessert.
That's not how we get there.

I have other things to do today.

The court order is saying she pay
one way, I pay the other way.

Like, I'm paying to take her home...

Just a second.
Did you pay the other way?

I'm taking her home on Sunday.
I paid for that, completely.

Is he supposed to pay for one way
for the child's visit,

and you're supposed to pay for one way?

Yes, Your Honor.

And he is returning the child to you
at his own expense.

-Yes.
-Well, then, you pay for the trip going.

What difference does that make?

The order is that he is supposed
to come get her from Georgia

and I come get her from Michigan.
Because this has been an ongoing thing.

-Not true.
-He will not come get his child.

I have been forced to go take her to him

because she wants to see her dad
and her brothers for the summer.

I purchased the tickets...

Are you talking about a ticket for you
or a ticket for her?

For her and myself, like...

[Judy] Is he supposed
to pay for your ticket?

Yes. The court order says
he pays for three...

-Let me see.
-You have the order.

Would you have the Plaintiff
put an X where that is

so that I don't have to
go through the whole thing?

There. All right. Highlighter.

Here you go, mark it.

Okay. Thank you.

Here, Judge.

[Judy] Well, at age 11 is she considered
an unaccompanied minor?

At this point, yes, but we've
never sent her by herself that way.

Yeah, actually, if she's an unaccompanied
minor, it has to have either a fee,

or a parent. Judgment for the Plaintiff
in the amount of $2,665,

which includes the one-way ticket.
We're finished here, thank you very much.

[Kevin]
Court adjourned.

[theme music playing]

I thought it was fair, you know,
I'm obligated to pay 60 percent.

He agreed to pay the whole payment
of the braces.

I never called my daughter ugly,
I never will.

He lied and got away with it.

I really hope we can communicate better.

That's fine, he can lie if he wants to.
He's very good at it.

That seemed like a really tough call.
How do you make that decision

when you can tell, obviously,
that both parents

just want their daughter to feel her best?

You know, clearly,
this child is fortunate.

She has two parents
that really care about her.

I think what it comes down to,
that even though it's a hard call,

if you want to modify a court order
that has been litigated

and resulted in an order of custody
and visitation,

and support and medical bills,
then you don't use the child

as a go-between, [chuckling]
the child is not an intermediary,

to create a contract.
From a legal perspective,

she didn't have the answer.
And I guess from a social perspective,

parents have to love their children more

[laughing] than they dislike each other.
That's the bottom line.

[theme music playing]

[narrator]
Have you been cheated?



[closing theme plays]