[Sean VO] I am
reflective of myself.
I'm acknowledging the
fact that in this process,
I have been behaving...
[Orna VO] We... listen,
we've run out of time.
I think you need a
behavioral therapist.
I think this method of trying
to engage you in this kind of
self-exploration is
just, like, not for you.
So I'd like the two of
you to think about this,
because I'm
worried that I'm, like,
not doing good
work with you guys,
so...
But we would disagree with you.
Okay.
[Sean] Okay, have a good one.
Sean, you're about to get us
thrown out of getting help,
- brother!
- [Sean] [groans] Well... [sighs]
[Orna VO] I kept
trying to, like,
figure out how to
extricate myself from the work,
and I actually said to them
that I think I'm not the right
therapist for them.
[Eyal] Can you say why?
I don't have the kind of
communication style that
- can work with that man.
- Mm.
-You surely do...
-[Nuar] Yeah, I think you do.
But he's shutting
that part of you down.
You have much more tenderness
- than you are finding with him.
- Yeah.
And I would wonder how
come he's shutting you down so
effectively, that
you say, you know,
[chuckles] "Go away!"
Yeah, what's the
countertransference?
What does it call up in you?
Like, when people don't look
for the truth when they're using
- words...
- [Eyal] Mm-hm.
But they're looking to
perform an operation,
I... I'm rendered
kind of... useless!
Okay, another approach.
But I'm not asking
you yet for an approach!
I'm asking do you understand
what it means to work with a
patient who will not engage
with you therapeutically?!
He's gonna bring it eventually,
and you're gonna catch it.
But you're telling me
something to give me hope,
that something could
happen in the future.
[Nuar] Well, have
you seen them since?
-That... that's why...
-[Orna] You are not joining me!
I'm asking you to go to a
really difficult place!
[Kali] That's what I'm saying!
I guess I'd wanna
know about his childhood,
because it must come from
a more formative relationship,
and it must go far back.
[Orna] Yeah, but...
It seems like we are all
finding empathy with him.
[Orna] For him, yeah.
And not so difficult for us,
- in a funny way.
- [Orna] Right.
[Nuar] I mean, you have
to meet with them again.
And he knows...
- that the stakes are high.
- Mm-hm.
So what's he gonna do?
Maybe you can ignore him.
Yeah, maybe you
should focus on Erica.
Mm-hm.
[Eyal] Just make
him the witness.
He should get his
space, sit there quietly,
and you're just with her.
He's gonna want to
come in probably,
- somehow.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
Curious ambient music
[Erica VO] Well, we
took your advice...
[Orna VO] Mm-hm.
To, um, seek out
separate therapy sessions.
Meaning you did it already?
- [Sean] Mm-hm.
- [Erica] Yes.
- [snaps] Excellent.
- [Erica] Yes.
And, um, I think I... it was
uncovered that I want to...
just be peaceful and unbothered.
Um, I feel like I have a
lot of things that are...
things that
trigger me, my anger...
I just wanna be
like, "You know what?
Out of my control."
It sounds like you're
saying what you arrived at
as a beginning goal is
for things outside of you
to not affect you?
[Erica] Yes.
How'd yours go?
Mine went fine.
It was a very good conversation.
I think in the case of us,
the biggest problem is
that I'm not a priority.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I know he takes it as
he's not a priority,
but I didn't have to be
accountable for anyone except
for Erica for a long time, so it
was never how I had to reach out
to make su... like, I never
had to call my mom like,
"Mom, wanna let
you know I'm safe!"
Like, I never did that.
She didn't wanna
know where you are?
Um...
she told me, "Erica, when
you were very, very young,
I knew that I didn't
have to worry about you."
[Orna] Because?
She says because
when she had me,
I was premature, and...
How premature?
- [Erica] About a month.
- Mm-hm.
And so when I was
released, my mom,
in her mind, had determined that
I was forever gonna be okay.
"She's got it; I knew she
was gonna be okay."
However, my sibling, he
became diabetic when, uh,
he was in the first grade.
Oh...
[Erica] So he has been
ill his whole entire life.
So her attention...
- [Orna] Went to him.
- Has always been on him.
It's never been on me
as a child to an adult.
So...
And so I think
I've always just...
I assumed I'd always be okay?
Well, I guess
maybe you assumed...
you were gonna be okay
or you learned not to pay
attention when you're not okay.
[Erica] Absolutely.
[Orna] That's why you'll go to
a therapist now and say you need
to find a way to not feel
when things are not okay.
So you're continuing
your NICU experience.
Whatever's not okay you're
just not gonna pay attention to.
-But then, lo and behold...
-That's exactly what I feel.
When you're upset,
you get really upset.
[Erica] Yes.
That's what I've
been talking about:
the reoccurring conversation.
-It's not...
-But just to say something
about what Erica just told us...
Mm-hm.
When you're asked to
be the one that is okay,
all those other
things that are...
suppressed or
dissociated or pushed aside,
they don't go away.
Well, I guess my only
outlet has been anger.
- [Orna] Right.
- So I think I...
Well, you're probably pretty
pissed off about taking that
role in the family.
- Absolutely!
- [Orna] Yeah.
But I see it spewing itself in
other pockets that I don't...
Meaning you're suppressing it
somewhere here and it's showing
- up over there.
- [Erica] Right.
Because that's what feelings do;
they just refuse
to just go away.
[Sean] Mm-hm.
So I have to process them?
- [Orna] Uh-huh.
- Mm-hm.
[laughs]
Okay.
Confront them?
Well, the idea is, first of all,
to know how you're actually
feeling about things that are
- happening.
- [Erica] Mm-hm.
Things that matter.
And in terms of
between the two of you,
the tiny bit of work I've been
trying to do with you is to find
a way for the two of you to
process things that bother you
between you.
I think the two of you don't
really know how to do that.
[Erica] Well, it's because I
don't have a place to place
- my...
- Mm-hm.
My feelings, my
anger, my frustrations,
or whatever it is
I'm processing.
I would assume you don't
actually know what's bothering
you.
Mm-hm.
- I don't.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
I mean, that's a good
thing to work on in therapy.
Mm-hm.
How do you think
you felt at the NICU?
I probably felt...
- alone.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
Unattended to.
- If I were to guess.
- [Orna] Yeah.
You think that can
resonate as a child as an adult?
- Mm-hm.
- [Erica] Mm!
[sniffles]
I try not to depend
on people at all,
um, 'cause I feel like I
would probably get let down
or disappointed.
Um...
so maybe I've always pigeonholed
myself into being alone.
- Mm-hm.
- Always!
- And I didn't even know that.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
I don't sit and cry
with my girlfriends or...
talk about sorrows or
talk about disappointments.
-Like, that's not...
-[Orna] And with Sean?
- I'm sorry?
- [Orna] With Sean?
Mm-mm.
What do you think, Sean?
I mean, when she
breaks down in front of me,
I'm there to hold her,
I'm there to support her,
I'm there to listen.
But it's not something that
she... that she voluntarily comes
to me to confide
in, to be vulnerable,
- to express her feelings.
- [Orna] Do you wish she did?
Absolutely!
It's been one of the main
things that, like...
allows me to have a much better
understanding of what you're
- going through.
- Mm-hm.
That's good information for you.
Yeah.
[Orna] All right,
we've run out of time.
I will see you next week.
- Okay.
- Okay!
That's good news.
[both laugh]
energetic synth music
[Brock] We got in a
fight over texting.
Over?
-[Brock] Oh, just, like...
-[Kristi] Finding a dog sitter
- for our trip.
- [Brock] Finding a dog sitter.
Like, I said I was
gonna handle it,
and I wasn't handling it the way
that she thought was the best
way...
um, and so she... I felt like
she kind of came at me.
I was like, "Whoa, like, why are
you... why are you getting worked
up over this?"
And then that was
triggering for her,
because I think you
said something like,
- "Every Mormon man... "
-You always say that.
You always say, "Why
are you so emotional?
Why are you
getting so worked up?"
It's like, I'm just explaining
a situation and a problem!
[Brock] Kristi, it's the
way that you do it, though!
Brock, I don't know
what to tell you, dude!
It's just like,
look, I'm sorry, like,
I have looked back at the
texts that I sent this morning,
and, like, I don't know how
else I could have worded them.
You said,
"Brock, you're f*cking us over
because you're too cheap... "
- [Kristi] Yes!
- "To do x, y, z!"
Yes, we're up a creek, we are
trying to find a dog sitter...
-[Brock] We're... we're not...
-For nine days...
-[Brock] Kristi...
-In a week...
-and...
-[Brock] But Kristi...
And you're offering
your cousin 200 dollars?!
- Kristi, we're not up a creek!
- [sighs]
Like, it's not
the end of the world!
So, but what you're
trying to say to Kristi is...?
If we get in a fight like
this, I sit back and I'm like,
"Why do I continue
to entertain this...
like, this dynamic when, like...
she's already hurt me so bad?"
It's just like...
I always fall back to that.
Like, why am I...
why am I...
- [Kristi] "Putting up with her?"
- Putting up with this?
- Just say it.
- Not her, like, this.
-Like, why am I putting up...
-What did you say, Kristi?
-Why am I...
-[Kristi] "Her."
He's like, "Why am I
putting up with this b*tch,"
- basically, you know?
- That is not the thought.
-That is not...
-Mm...
The thought, though.
What is the thought?
I don't like it when
you talk to me like that!
It escalates things!
Like, it makes things way more
intense than they need to be,
and it turns it into a fight,
and then I'm not
connected with you!
And I don't want to
be connected with you!
[sighs] Fine, then
don't be connected with me.
Like, I just, like,
don't know what to do.
-[Orna] Do you... but...
-[sighs]
[Brock] [sighs]
I'm torn between addressing
this kind of surface level
communication, but it sounds
like you're also sitting on
the betrayal you've felt, and
need to work something out
further about what happened.
I'll be honest, Orna, like, I
don't know what else could be
said or explained.
She's explained it in
so many different ways.
And are there some things
that she has said that I wish I,
like, had not heard?
Yes.
What do you mean?
Like, there was one
time where I asked, like,
"If things had
gone well with him,
would you still be with him?"
And you said, "Probably, yeah."
You're... like, I
don't know what to do...
Brock, here's the thing...
[Orna] What's
happening right now?
[sighs]
I feel like you put me between a
rock and a hard place sometimes,
'cause you're always asking
me these hypotheticals...
"What if this had happened?
What if that had happened?
What if this had happened?" ...
And I don't wanna patronize you,
I wanna be honest,
but I also don't know!
So then I'm as
honest as I can be,
and then you're hurt!
- [Orna] But it is hurtful.
- I know!
But, like, I don't...
Like, I don't know!
-So, like, if anything, I...
-But that is the truth!
[Kristi] Yeah!
- Like, literally I don't know!
- But it is hurtful, and...
- listen!
- [Kristi] [sighs]
So that's what's going on.
You wanna be
honest, which is brave...
Yeah, but it
always f*ck me over!
It doesn't f*ck you over,
it means you have to bear the
consequences!
I know!
It's like you wanna be honest
but you can't stand what's
coming back at you.
Let's stay with what was
said between the two of you,
and if there's
something you wanna retract,
then retract it!
Can you keep going?
I have not been a
very trusting person.
- Like, I have never been...
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
- An incredibly trusting person.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
And I...
don't feel like I was...
- chosen.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
Like, kind of I was like
a pretty-sturdy backup.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
So in your mind, this other
person became your competitor,
and you didn't really
win the competition,
he lost, but you didn't win.
Yeah.
And, like, maybe part of the
reason why I'm so interested in
this idea of, like, opening the
relationship and us going our
separate ways and coming
back is because, like,
maybe that means we actually...
kinda, like, re-chose.
[Orna] What's your
reaction, Kristi?
[sighs] So he was
never a competition.
Like, there was not any...
Like, it was a one-off.
And then it's frustrating
because I feel like [sighs]
I did choose you, I do choose
you, and I have proven that...
every day for the
past two years...
-[Brock] I...
-I prove it all the time...
But... I get what you're
saying, but for Brock,
it meant something else; you
introduced another person in
there that meant something
to him about his own
way of experiencing the world,
and competition is...
a serious thing.
You can't both
introduce it and then say,
"But I don't wanna deal
with what it's doing to you."
It's not even that, but it's
just like I feel like I'm at a
loss for how to help him.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
So Brock, you said about
yourself that you're not
- trusting in general?
- [Brock] Yeah.
[Orna] Can you
say more about that?
Um, yeah, like I...
I think my first true
relationship experience was,
- uh, kind of a love triangle.
- Mm-hm.
[Brock] I felt like she
kind of put me into one.
Mm-hm.
And they really
enjoyed watching me compete.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
So that was sort
of the template,
- the first template?
- Yeah, yeah.
[Orna] Mm-hm, very tough.
How many siblings are you?
[Brock] Oldest of three.
[Orna] Was one of you favored?
- Uh, my brother.
- [Orna] He was favored?
Well, favored by my parents?
No.
But favored by genetics maybe.
Like, I was always a
little more pudgier.
Mm-hm.
[Brock] Uh, I had
really bad acne.
Mm-hm.
My brother was
more of an athlete.
[Orna] So he was,
like, better looking?
[Brock] Yeah, I would say so.
As a kid.
I mean, this is true: my
brother got his first kiss
- before I did.
- [Orna] Uh-huh.
-So we always joke, like...
-[Orna] Yeah.
I had to go to my
younger brother to f... like,
"Dude, what was it like?"
- [laughs]
- [Orna] Mm-hm, mm-hm.
You know?
And so that's why, like, I think
my first relationship was so
devastating was
'cause I was still
really in the throes of what
I would consider just...
I just looked...
- really bad.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
So that might be one of the...
old stories that's
getting reworked here.
Yeah.
Where are you,
Kristi, listening to this?
I feel like there's a
chance to rewrite the past now,
but...
we're missing each other.
And I'm trying to say, like...
"I really love you.
And I really love us."
[whispering] I just
want you to believe that.
Tender ambient music
[Orna VO] With
Christine and Nadine,
what I did learn was
that Nadine always felt
- displaced, homeless.
- [Virginia VO] Yeah.
Her life has
always felt to her...
chasing her impulses, chaos,
and she made a philosophy
out of that way of living.
[Virginia] Although it's a
little thin, that philosophy,
'cause she's also lost.
[Orna VO] Yeah.
But my worry is that, indeed,
Nadine is now hitching herself
to a new relationship with
the hope that she'll find a new
- home...
- [Virginia VO] Yeah.
[Orna VO] And that she's, like,
now under the spell of that,
in which case...
there's nothing I can do.
Gentle ambient music
softly humming
[Orna VO] So how have
the two of you been?
- We've been... you can talk.
- [chuckling] Um...
it's been a little rough.
Um...
I will say after that
session, though, I, like,
- slept really well.
- Mm-hm.
- [Nadine] So that was nice.
- Interesting.
Yeah, I feel like we
pulled on something...
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And it undid the
whole sweater, yeah.
Do you know what it was?
What was the thread?
Um, I don't think I
was recognizing how, like,
frustrated I was
with the relationship,
or even just with myself.
Um, I feel honestly like I've
lied to myself for most...
Like, most always, and I
feel like that thread was, like,
this, like, thread of truth,
and then, like, the
whole thing just, like,
ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch.
Yeah.
Any thoughts?
So I think those realizations...
Well, I don't wanna
really speak for you.
We ended up...
We're breaking up, essentially,
or trying to figure out how to
decouple in a ethical way.
Um...
she asked me if I felt
like I was in love with her,
and I said, "Well, I don't know.
Like, I don't... I don't know."
Um, I haven't necessarily felt
that... we haven't felt that in a
while.
I guess what Nadine also
said is she's not sure if she's
polyamorous anymore, and
she's not sure if she can manage
-being...
-I feel very confused.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
So I was like, "Okay, we've...
Our entire relationship has
revolved around
non-monogamy and polyamory,
and I feel that you have used
polyamory as a vehicle to leave
me."
And I'm mad!
- I'm really mad!
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
- I'm disappointed!
- Mm-hm.
I don't know if I
need to move out,
um, and I don't have enough to
try to find a new place to live
and maintain our rent, so
I don't know if we should, like,
push through it and...
I'm Team Push
Through It, personally.
"Push through it" means...
[Nadine] I just
feel like we're...
Stay living under
the same roof...
- [Nadine] Yeah.
- Until...?
- [Nadine] Until the lease is up.
- So it's like three more months.
[Orna] So one option is to stay,
and the other option is?
To m... mo... like...
To figure out how to cancel the
lease and then each move out.
- Mm-hm.
- And my l...
I have, like, zero f...
I'm, like, fi...
My life, aside from this,
is in shambles.
I need to, like, get
my situation together.
[Orna] What's
happening with your life?
I have no fina... I... everything,
everything got f*cked up.
-I don't...
-[Orna] Tell me.
Um...
[voice wavering] um...
[gulps]
[sniffles]
So simultaneously
to all of this,
I, um... I've always worked in my
fam... with my family and my dad
-and all of that, and then...
-What kind of work is that?
Um...
car... like, cars
and stuff like that.
But moving to New York, I
stopped working for my family.
This is also when I came out,
and then that [voice cracking]
totally unravelled
-my family dynamic, and then...
-How so?
Um...
with my dad, it's just,
like, gone totally...
um, yeah, no, he
doesn't... at this point,
doesn't wanna have a
relationship with me,
and, um...
He doesn't wanna have a
relationship with you since you
came out?
So for him, it's all together,
because, like, I moved here,
then I "became g*y'...
Because I just
became g*y, right?
[Orna] Uh-huh.
So in his eyes, I'm not working,
I'm doing drugs, I've
literally lost my mind,
um, and now I'm
with a woman and...
So I'm, like, trying to, like,
put pieces back together while
this is all happening.
It sounds like a crisis.
Oh, big time.
[chuckles]
- [Orna] Yeah.
- [laughs]
- Yeah.
- [Nadine] [sniffles]
Yeah, so our last conversation
was he didn't wanna have a
relationship.
He was, like, night
and day different.
[Orna] How so?
Um, he was, like... he's,
like, the sweetest dad.
-He was, like...
-You were special to him?
[Nadine] I'm his
only daughter, yeah.
And, like, if I
walked in the room,
- his whole face lit up.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
Like, everyone
knew, like... [sniffles]
And he called me "Flower"...
And now, it's like... [whistles]
As if that, like, never was
even, like, real or anything,
'cause it feels not real
because the minute I veer from
-the course...
-Mm-hm,
meaning it's conditional.
Total... like, the most
transactional and conditional
love ever.
- Yeah, very confusing.
- [Nadine] Mm-hm.
And you're describing a
relationship in which,
first of all, there's, like,
a great deal of dependence...
- [Nadine] Mm-hm.
- That has been fostered...
- Mm-hm.
- And...
in a way, needing to
negate yourself...
- [Nadine] Mm-hm.
- To keep that going...
[Nadine] Mm-hm.
And negate your ability
to stand on your own feet.
[Nadine] Mm-hm.
It's like choosing
between yourself
and then, like...
[Orna] The love of your father.
I'm just trying
to think about...
things that happened between
the two of you that might be
- related to that.
- Mm-hm.
I mean, one
immediate thought is...
something gets set up
between the two of you,
and then you start feeling like
Christine is doing that to you.
That she's, in a way,
having certain expectations...
- Expectations, yes, yes, yes.
- [Orna] Of you that either you
adhere to and then
you're a good girl...
On good graces, yes, exactly.
- Or you're bad.
- [Nadine] Yeah.
Yeah.
The interesting this is that
you're in a way setting it up so
- that that dynamic gets created.
- [Nadine] Mm-hm.
And I think that's where the
breaking of the agreements...
- Mm-hm.
- [Orna] Is worth thinking about.
Mm.
[Orna] That in a way
you're provoking...
Mm-hm, mm-hm, mm-hm.
[Orna] Christine to
become that person.
Yeah.
And it's probably especially so
when I'm feeling so triggered in
the dy... like, as
it's, like, falling apart.
As the situation with your dad
is falling apart, yes.
[Nadine]
Actively falling apart.
Or... and... or the fact
that he's not there.
- [Orna] Yeah.
- So then I recreate him.
- [Orna] Yeah.
- Ah.
- [Orna] Interesting.
- Yeah.
'Cause you're
comfortable with that.
Yeah, 'cause that feels like
love maybe, I don't know.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
- Yeah.
[Orna] Or at least
that's what you know.
Yeah, as love.
Christine, do you
have any thoughts
on what Nadine is saying?
Um, I... I definitely
empathize with you,
and I don't really feel like
I've been that kind to you
lately.
Sometimes the
narrative in my head is like,
"This person is
heartless and they're, like,
- out to get me and stuff."
- Yeah.
But you're just...
- A person.
- Well, yeah. [laughs]
Um, well...
- we're running out of time.
- [Nadine] Mm-hm.
I suggest you come back.
Even if we're decoupling?
I... I guess I wanna hear
the decoupling over time,
just to make sure
that's what you're doing.
- Okay.
- [Orna] We'll keep talking.
- Okay.
- [sighs]
[Orna] [whispering] Bye.
- Can I have a hug?
- [Christine] Huh?
[whispering] Can I have a hug?
Sensitive ethereal music
[Orna VO] First, I'm trying to
understand what's happening with
this breakup... sudden
breakup... with this great love.
[Virginia VO] Yeah.
[Orna VO] Which is interesting
it's not a typical couples
- therapy.
- [Virginia VO] No, no, no.
How are they thinking about
what tomorrow will bring?
Yeah.
[Orna VO] So they're planning
to live together until the
summer.
But the thing is it was suddenly
unraveling in the session that
Nadine is in the middle
of a horrible crisis.
[Virginia VO] Yeah.
[Orna VO] Um, I started to feel,
like, really worried about her.
[Virginia VO] Yeah.
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