03x13 - Episode 13

[bunniefuu]

Look at this.

- Look at this.
- I didn't know it was a video.

[laughs]

But how can I burn so bright
and be reflecting too?

And I know that you need my

Everlasting light...

[laughing] This makes
my booty look big.

And that's all right...

We're in the hospital right now,

awaiting your...

- [Natasha] [groans]
- [Josh] Your arrival.

[Natasha] Mm-hm.

You're coming.

- You're coming soon.
- You're on your way.

All right, bye.

Baby, don't make me weep...

[Natasha] Come on, Bubba!

[giggles]

[Natasha] Come on!
Come on, Bubba!

Wanting to take
what's left of my heart

[Orna VO] So remember,
the homework assignment...

[Natasha VO] Yes.

That is safe to say
that we have made...

little progress in the, uh,
initiate intimacy or physical

touch.

Josh has been traveling,
and I missed him so...

deeply.

I was calling him
all the time like,

"I am lonely, I would
like you to be home."

- [Orna] Yeah.
- Like, I think I said that

not verbatim, but damn near,
like, those words.

- Yeah.
- Just because...

I wanna feel that closeness
even when we're not close.

- [Orna] Yeah.
- So...

I...  I think I, um...

When she expresses it in those
moments and texts me and is

like, "Hey, I really miss
you," I have a really hard time

believing her, because
it's just objectively true that

she often calls me to vent, and
I am more than just someone

to dump your day on.

I am your lover.

I am someone that
enjoys being close,

that enjoys being physical,
that enjoys being wanted,

and none of those spaces
for me are being fulfilled.

So it's starting to become a
place where it's just like,

"Jesus, I need...
I need something.

I need something for me!"

I'm empty right now.

[sighs] It's hard to...  like,
constantly trying to meet

someone else where they are and
I feel like I'm never met where

I want to be, and it feels
like sh*t, you know?

- [sighs]
- [Orna] Listen, I really get it.

Something feels
unbearable at this point.

[Josh] Yeah.

Like you can't...  all this
stuff that she's offering,

but you've been
waiting too long.

And beyond what's going
on between the two of you,

there's something about the pain
that you're feeling that sounds

to me like it's coming
from a really early place.

Like there's some very basic
physical affection that you're

missing...

that went on too long.

Ambient synth music

Whatever she's offering to him,
it seems to very easily turn

into a signal of what
she's not offering.

[Virginia VO] Yes.

There are certain situations
where she does express her

desire, her opinions,
and he very easily,

without even
noticing, swats them.

So it's not like she's
not offering things,

it's just not at his frequency.

[Virginia VO] Well, but I
thought he claimed that one of

his frequencies would be
emotional connection...

[Orna VO] I know.

[Virginia VO] Which she
offered in this instance.

[Orna VO] Yes, but I think
there's some rejection there and

intense loneliness.

Almost starvation.

So one of the things I'm trying
to tune into with him is...

how extremely he's experiencing
his own deprivation.

It feels to me like it's
partially coming from childhood

stuff.

I mean, that degree of
deprivation is certainly not

coming from this marriage.

Can I ask you, Josh, to
tell me something about your,

like, early background?

I have a very
chaotic upbringing.

- [Orna] Mm-hm.
- Um...

I grew up rough, you know?

And, like, my mom and my dad,

very, very, very
unhealthy relationship.

My mom is a maniac.

How so?

[Josh] I mean, you name it.

My mom poured sugar
in my dad's tank,

sold his BMW, sold
all his equipment.

Uh, my mom cheated on my
father in front of me,

um, when I was,
like, I think 10.

And when I mean  "cheated,"  like,
she had sex with another man

while I was in the same room.

Um, and that same man put a g*n
in my hand and told me to k*ll

him at one point.

- So, like...
- Oof!

A lot of crazy sh*t that
I went through as a kid,

and, um, my dad protected me
from a lot of the things like

that.

And he tried to
protect me from my mom,

but when there was a custody
battle ...  they separated ...

I was under the
custody of my mother.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

So he couldn't
protect me in those moments.

He couldn't keep me away
from a lot of that mess.

How old were you
when they separated?

I was in first grade
when they began separating.

And, uh, there's a lot of
moments in my life where,

like, my mom would get an
apartment and I would just live

there, and my mom would, like,
get a boyfriend and live with

her boyfriend or...

So you would...

- [Josh] Yeah.
- Not have an adult around?

[Josh] Yeah, often.

I had a lot of freedom
as a kid because of that.

- A lot of freedom.
- [scoffs] Freedom, okay.

Yeah, depends on perspective.

As a kid, it was freedom.

As an adult, it was negligence.

And then I joined a g*ng at 14.

I...

[sighs]

I've been through a lot.

Yeah.

- It's very tough.
- Yeah.

It sounds like you've
done incredible work of,

indeed, transforming...

difficult feelings
into reparative,

compassionate feelings.

[Josh] Yeah.

[Orna] How are
you doing listening?

Um...

I think I see so much of
his experience in him,

and I'm like, "Wow,
you're just...  you're magic,"

right?

'Cause these things
would've really, you know...

[Orna] Yeah, they
could have created...

- Would have messed up anybody.
- [Orna] Yeah.

And he just sort of, like,
does his own little internal

- alchemy...
- [Orna] Mm-hm.

And, like, makes, you
know, the best parts of him.

Mm-hm.

I process so much
in therapy and, um,

I work...

really hard to work on myself,
and I wanna share what I feel

through these sessions with her
in the intimacy of just me and

- her.
- Mm-hm.

And she...  she doesn't tend to
be...  Natasha doesn't tend to be

too open to that
kind of conversation.

What can you add?

I think that coming here, it
allows me to open up, right?

And because...

[Orna] Because of
some sense of safety?

- Correct.
- Mm-hm.

And at home, I get really stuck
back into that routine where I'm

just sort of, like,
avoiding the conversations or...

But what are you avoiding?

Just tension, arguing, like...

- [Orna] Arguing.
- Yeah.

- [Orna] Conflict.
- Yes.

Conflict is, like,
somewhere where I just have,

like, a very, like...

It's not flight or fright
or...  What is it called?

- Flight or fight.
- [Josh] Fight or flight.

[Natasha] There we go.
[laughs]

Um, I am a  "freeze."

So where is this from,

this fear of things
becoming scary and...?

[laughs] Life.

Uh, my very tumultuous past.

Tell me.

[Natasha] At a very young age,
I got in a relationship with my

daughter's father, and
that was toxic as f*ck.

There was a lot of, um...

Was it violent?

- A little bit, yes.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.

Um, and then after that
relationship dissolved,

um, I was sort of in,
like, survival mode,

uh, without a college
education, just trying to...

make money, trying to
forge a future for myself and,

like, keep
everybody alive and safe.

Mm-hm.

And, like, I've had so much
conflict in those years that now

that I'm in sort of
like a...  a good space,

any conflict I treat
like catastrophic conflict.

[Orna] As if it's then, yeah.

But it sounds like actually
you're scared a lot of the time.

I'm totally scared.

But what are you
scared of in a conversation?

Well, I think...

[Orna] Every conversation
maybe carries the threat of a

break-up.

Yes, in my mind, yes.

You know, we're
engaged, and one day,

I really hope we do get married,
but we really talk about

marriage as a big
"If," not a "When."

I want us to stay together
and I want this to be strong,

and I know he does too, and
so it's, like, scared of,

like, what is...

the other option.

Like, besides us
making this work,

what is the other option?

For me, that's...

that's terrifying.

Curious piano music

[Orna VO] The fear of
separation is one of the forces

[chuckling] that
keeps people together.

The dread of the pain of
separation gets people through

hard times, it gets people
through other times where they

would have just thrown in the
towel 'cause it's easier to give

up.

On the other hand, you don't
want the fear of being alone to

be the force that
keeps them together.

Because when people feel trapped
and too afraid of being alone,

the relationship starts
to feel like a coffin.

This week has just,
like...  I feel like...

just a lot is getting stirred
up between us over church stuff.

How so?

[Kristi] [sighs]

I mean, the first thing that
comes to mind is that I feel

like you're just very cavalier
or flip about leaving the

church.

I feel like it was
easy for you to stay in,

it was easy for you to leave.

"Why are we crying about it?"

You think it was
easy for me to stay in?!

The five years I
stayed in and you were out,

every Sunday was hell for me.

Why'd you keep going?

Because, like, it was...
I still got spiritual...

- Like, spiritual things from it!
- [Kristi] [sighs]

[Brock] And I still
had a community there!

[Kristi] Well, and I think
this points to a big difference

between us.

You don't contextualize
the church as an ab*ser,

and I do.

[Brock] Right.

Can you...  can you
say a little bit more?

Like, describe more in detail?

[sighs] [whispering] Yeah.

I just...  I grew up...

in lies.

Like, I remember, like, having
distinct moments where I just

literally thought I
was going to Hell.

Moments like?

Probably the biggest one was...

the night that I got
sexually assaulted.

I was 14,

and I didn't even
realize that it was that.

What happened?

[sighs] Just met a
boy at a park at night.

We were just sitting
on a hill and, like,

talking, uh, and
then all of a sudden,

we weren't talking,
and he was on top of me,

and he was
touching me, and I, like,

froze and didn't
know what to do.

And... [sighs]

in Mormonism, sexual
sin is next to m*rder.

And if you are sexually impure,

then you can't get
to the top level of Heaven,

where all your family
is hopefully gonna be.

And so I remember walking
home just beside myself,

crying my eyes out thinking
that I had f*cked up my life.

And my life after death.

I don't even think my parents
remember that that happened.

Did you tell them?

I told my dad, not my mom.

[Orna] Interesting.

I thought my mom would
think that I was a sl*t.

So I didn't tell her.

The vibe was very much
"You didn't get r*ped.

Good.

So now let's go to
the bishop to confess."

Mm-hm.

And we have a...

a lay clergy in
Mormonism, and so the bishop is,

like, my friend's dad, who you
see at dance recitals and high

school basketball games.

Going and confessing your
sins in graphic detail...

- Humiliating.
- [Kristi] Humiliating!

- Mm-hm.
- [Kristi] So inappropriate.

Locked behind closed
doors with an older man,

talking about sexual
stuff as a 14-year-old girl?

- What the f*ck?
- [Orna] Mm-hm.

This is the world that my
parents brought me up in.

Do you have
thoughts on this, Brock?

Well, it's just really
sad and tragic and...

heartbreaking.

I think that a lot of what we
struggle with ties back to this.

Like, for five years,
Kristi thinks I betrayed her...

[Orna] Mm-hm.

By choosing to go to church.

And if I put
myself in her shoes,

I can see it.

Like, I can see, like, "This
church robbed me of everything,"

right?

"And I told you all of this,
and you're still gonna go,"

right?

Like, I totally get that.

I'm just tired of it, like,
constantly existing in our

marriage as this,
like...  this, like,

big shadow.

I...  I feel like I'm...  I'm
viewed through that lens still,

right?

I'm out, but I
still feel like...

that...  that
animosity is still there.

Yeah, it is there.

I admit it.

You know, I can tell you that
I'm...  I'm in two minds ...

Or many minds ...  listening,
because I understand both

your...

deep need to be
recognized and felt,

given what you've been through.

But it also sounds like
Brock is a stand-in

for more than himself ...

For where you came
from, I guess your family,

your entire community...

And that's, like, a tall order,
to stand in for all of that.

Yeah.

I want my parents,
and your parents,

and the church, I
just want it to, like,

not overshadow us.

And, like, consume us.

[sighs] Yeah, I would
like that too.

Smooth funky music

[Ken VO] It must have taken a
great deal for her to leave the

- church.
- [Orna VO] Yeah.

And that may have had to be
built on this kind of mind ...

This mind that could
drill her way out.

- Mm-hm, yeah.
- [Ken] Right?

And, um, how else
was she gonna get out?

Right.

So I think we would have to
appreciate how hard that is.

Mm-hm, yeah.

I wonder whether there's
something going on with that

experience of having her agency

stripped of her that makes it
so important for her now to

make sure that she retains it.

It would interesting
for us to imagine, like,

how that affected her
way of doing this relationship,

because the thing that's hard
for her to do [chuckles] is go

- to his experience.
- [Nuar] I see.

In herself, she can go anywhere.

But it's really hard for
her to accept his difference.

I feel like I have
to convince her why,

ideologically, she needs to
listen to him in a different

way.

Cool funky music

- Hello!
- Hi!

Hello!

[Orna VO] How are you two?

We've had yet another...

awesome week.
[laughs]

Mm-hm.

[Orna] You feel the same way?

I feel like we had a great week,

but I do feel that I did
get in my head a little bit.

[Orna] How so?

You know, self-doubt, asking
questions about the affair.

"Why did you do this?

Why'd you do that?"

And then went off on
Sean, and he's like,

"Babe, we should...
Both been here, like,

having a great time and...

you're allowing this to
interfere with that."

So the two of you have a
great time that's conditioned on

certain things
being off the table;

they shouldn't be processed.

It's not about
putting it off the table.

If Erica can't tell me how
to make it better for her,

then we're just talking
about how upset you are,

and in the process of that,
we're just re-aggravating an old

wound, and you're now
upset, and you're now angry,

and you're now in the same
pattern that has pushed us

apart.

I mean, what you're saying
maybe helps make sense of

something that I'm personally
struggling with in terms of how

- to work...
- [Sean] Okay.

- With the two of you.
- Mm-hm.

I don't know if you know
anything about my theoretical

- background...
- [Sean] We don't.

But I'm a psychoanalyst.

- [Sean] Mm-hm.
- Right?

So one of the ways that we
work is a lot of introspection

about what motivates us
to behave certain ways.

[Sean] Mm-hm.

[Orna] A lot of self-reflection.

Mm-hm.

And I feel like when I'm trying
to do that kind of work with the

two of you, it
doesn't really go...

You, in particular...

you seem...

- kind of, like, averse to that
- - that you're saying you don't

wanna focus on what
happened in the past,

you wanna look forward.

"What are the behaviors
that will make things better?"

And there are therapeutic
approaches that do that,

but I don't really...
Don't know how...

I don't know how to do that.

Okay.

[Orna] Have you both been
in individual treatment?

- [Sean] I have.
- Yeah.

- [Sean] Mm-hm.
- And you?

[Erica] I've gone,
uh, once or twice.

Might be a good
idea for both of you.

Absolutely!

I know that I definitely have
stuff going on with me that I

probably...  I... so go...  go ahead!

[Orna] Mm-hm.

Orna, I'm...  I'm open to
whatever internal reflection

that you [chuckling]
think I need to...

So let's, for a
minute, talk about anger.

[Erica] Okay.

I mean, Erica has put on the
table a few reasons why she's

angry.

You have every
right to be angry.

But when your anger is a big
part of the problems that we

have had in our relationship
and in our communication,

how is that
helping us get better?

- And that's...
- I think I'm more defensive

than angry, Sean.

'Cause I've always had to
defend myself my whole life,

- and my positions.
- [Orna] How so?

How so?

Um, I've always
been, uh, told, like,

I'm not gonna be...

uh, something.

They'll say I'm not
gonna amount to something.

It's always been, "Oh,
you know, you're a girl,

you're a Black girl, you have
larger boobs so you can't dance

this way..."

Like, whatever it was,
it was always something.

And so I made sure I positioned
myself so that I did everything

they said I could
not accomplish.

I would make them
very much aware of that.

[Orna] Mm-hm.

Um, I think I do
stuff like that with you.

How do you do that with Sean?

He always says I
try to prove a point,

but I don't think it's I'm
trying to prove a point,

it's that I think he's...  I feel
like that he's discounted me in

some regard.

Now I'm trying to make
sure that you know...

what I actually
bring to the table.

But I don't discount you.

But Erica is saying
that I guess there are some

interactions in which
she feels like you...

Erica feels
attacked before it starts.

[Orna] She feels
like you discount her.

Can you look inward and find
any place in yourself where you

sometimes feel, "Yeah,
sometimes I feel dismissive?"

[Sean] Abs...  absolutely!

So let's...  let's...

There are absolutely
situations where we get into a

- conversation...
- [Orna] Mm-hm.

I'm being not only attacked,

being dismissed,

and in a lot of ways just
catching the wrath of whatever

happened in her day...

She's talking about me
being dismissed, not you.

So here's what's happening:
I feel like you're defending

yourself, but what is the...  what
are you defending yourself...

about?

I'm not defending
myself, I'm...  [sighs]

- I...  I f...
- [Orna] You're...  you're not...

- Okay.
- I mean, I'm...

I'm not sure what's happening.

Do you feel like I'm...

criticizing you?

[Sean] No, I don't feel
like you're criticizing me,

but I'm saying I know why
I behave the way I behave.

Maybe for Erica, there's a
lot more of that that she needs

to...

I mean,
understand about herself,

'cause I see her anger more
than anybody probably.

So for me, I don't
know how to address that.

I don't know how to...

But I'm hoping to bring
couples into less kind of...

- blaming the other person...
- [Sean] Mm-hm.

And more kind of
looking inward ...

"Oh, what about me made
me volunteer to behave

- in this way?"
- [Sean] Mm-hm.

- "What about me?"
- [Sean] Yes.

- Not  "What about them?"
- [Sean] Mm-hm.

I'm super self-reflective.

I always look at what I did
before I look at what anybody

else did.
So...

It does not
appear in your speech.

That's because we're here
in a situation with my wife,

who won't listen to me, and I
haven't been able to help Erica

past her anger about what I did.

No, no, no, we're not
talking about you helping Erica,

- we're talking about you...
- [Erica] Helping you.

Learning something internally.

That's the...

Well, I've
processed this internally,

but what I'm dealing with in
this dynamic that we have...

What have you processed, Sean?

What...  what have you
processed internally, I guess?

[sighs]

I know why I did what I did, but
I'm suffering with the fact that

my wife is an angry person,

and that I'm typically
her punching bag.

[Orna] Well,
she's also mad at you.

She was an angry person
before she was mad at me.

That's...  that's the thing.

Sean, I wanna be
really direct with you.

[Sean] Mm-hm.

I don't know how
to work with that.

[Sean] Okay.

I...

I don't...  I don't...
I can't find you.

I find you doing that,
and I can't find you,

I can't connect with
you, I can't find you!

You're saying,
"Erica, Erica, Erica."

There's nowhere in there that
you're telling me something

about yourself, and I...

What can I tell you about
myself that has to do with my

wife's anger?

You could say
something like, "You know...

I've had experience where people
get mad at me and I don't really

understand why
people are so mad at me.

I need to understand something
about the way I'm doing things

that ends up with people
being repeatedly mad at me."

I...  I don't have [chuckling] a
lot of issues with people being

mad at me.

It's not a common experience.

Okay, well, you've told me that
your ex-wife is not on speaking

terms with you.

[Sean] My ex-wife...

And you have a current
wife, and there's plenty of love

- between the two of you...
- [Sean] Mm-hm.

- [Orna] And she's mad at you!
- Mm-hm.

So there's something there
that you might wanna look at in

yourself.

I don't really need a lot of
insight in why Sean is the way

Sean is.

I...  I understand
myself very, very well.

So how can I be of help?

To...  no, to...  to you!

She's asking to you, sir!

Okay.

And for her to be a help to me,
it would be for you to better

understand your anger, why
you're still so angry with me,

and...

But...  I'm...  I'm
gonna stop you guys.

[Sean] [chuckles]

I'm not the right
therapist for you guys.

Energetic ethereal music