♪ambient
synths♪
[Orna] Where are you
on the baby...
-question?
-We're trying next month.
[Orna]
Oh!
[Elaine] If I say to
him, "Let's go out.
Let's do something,
let's go to brunch
or something," he'll-
He- he- he
won't do it
But, we hang out.
-When?
-On the weekend.
Name it.
Name it.
So while he was
away, I felt...
almost like-
[exhales]
like, almost like
a relief.
'Cause I feel like
I didn't have
to worry about
anything.
[Desean]
She..
absolutely is a
controlling person
and not in a negative
connotation.
I understand.
But she...
-as a woman-
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-also wants her husband-
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-to have some-
-[Elaine] Backbone.
-you know, be the man-
-[Elaine] Yes.
-in the situation.
-Yeah.
You know, in
truest sense.
I le- I want the
debate...
and this is gonna sound
a little bizarre,
but I don't like
to be challenged.
[laughter]
-[Orna] It sounds contradictory-
-I know.
-[Orna] as it is.
-[laughter]
[Elaine] It's- it's
it's a weird thing.
I'm glad the two of
you are laughing,
but let's do another
piece of work here.
What's it like
to be...
invited to take on
a masculine role...
and then controlled
and told no?
Wow.
You're right, I do
need more help.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-[laughter]
-[Orna] 'Cause you don't know.
-Wow.
No, I- it's- that's
not a good feeling.
I would assume that
it's a familiar feeling.
[burst of air]
♪groovy bass
and drum beat♪
[Desean] I'm very proud of
where I come from.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
[Desean] But I'm not the
way I am when I'm here...
in the corporate
setting.
[Orna] So you find a
way to move between
-these different identities?
-[Desean] Yeah.
[Desean] I think I get
along with everyone.
When I suggest
we should go out,
he'll say, "Okay, tell me
when and where,
and I'll be there."
Like...
I'm asking you
to take me out...
so if I have to plan it,
you're not taking me out.
[Desean] She likes these-
these fancy restaurants,
all right? And very
expensive plates.
I get treated very badly
in a lot of these places.
[Orna]
How so?
It's never happened?
A couple of times?
[Orna]
What is this?
-You dont recall-
-What-
-a couple of instances?
-[Orna] You get-
Explain it.
Remind me.
[Orna] Help me
understand.
You get treated
badly because
these are like snooty
waiters?
[Desean] Yeah,
yeah.
Because they treat
everyone badly?
-[Desean] No.
-They treat you badly
because you're black?
Um, I- I- I- I think
on one or two-
[Orna] Is that what
you're saying?
I think on one
or two occasions,
-I felt that way very strongly.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-Yeah.
-Mm-hm.
Very strongly.
We were the only people
of color in these places.
You don't
remember this?
I feel like...
one of the biggest things
that Desean has issue with
is...that whenever
we go out,
people will approach me
rather than approach him
And so I tell
Desean...
"If you sit there
with a face
that makes
people feel like
-you're not approachable-
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
you're not gonna
be approached.
You...have to-
[Desean]
I have to what?
Go in a little
bit more open.
[Desean] You- I don't
think I go in
-any other way.
-If you feel
that they're snooty,
and you walk in
feeling like,
"Oh, this place is
so snooty,
and I'm the only black
person here,"
like, who cares?
Be the only black
person there.
Wor- flaunt that.
Like, you know?
Like, who cares?
Who cares?
Like, why is that
an issue for you?
Honestly.
Other than the
fact that they-
Are- are you asking,
or are you
challenging?
It's-it's an-
it's a little-
it's- it's a
real question.
It's a real
question.
Can you say?
It's not a good
feeling to...
be in a situation
where you're...
made to feel like...
you know...
that people...
don't like you.
[Orna] Don't like you
or scared of you.
-Or scared of you or-
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
[Desean] Or intimidated
for some reason or...
I've been taken off
accounts at work.
Uh, they won't
tell you why,
but, uh, I've been in
meetings where, you know-
And- and you chalk
it up at work like,
"Listen, this is
business."
But if someone
doesn't like you...
for no particular
reason,
-you know-
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
Never mind how
capable you are,
how much experience
you have-
[Orna]
Yeah.
You know what
the - the deal is.
[Orna]
Yeah.
And you, you know,
I keep it moving.
I'm like, you
know, I-
you know, what
am I gonna do?
You're always- it's something
in the back of your mind...
you know, where you
just feel like...
"Am I gonna be
treated...fairly
-in this- this exchange?"
-[Orna] Yeah.
You- you understand
that.
[Elaine] I- it saddens
me that that-
-that he goes through that, um-
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
We always talk
about...
how much attention
you get.
[Elaine]
Mm-hm.
And I ask you, "How
does that make you feel?"
How much attention you
get as a woman.
Mm-hm.
That's different.
[Orna] But what
do you say?
-Dirty.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
Like I need to go home
and take a sh-
[Desean] Doesn't
make you feel good.
-You have to take a shower.
-[Orna] Doesn't feel good.
-You have to take a shower.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
Yeah.
And, you know,
um-
But why is
that different?
Why is that
different?
When I s- when I
think about it,
it's kind of the
same, right?
Like, I'm rewinding
my answer,
and as I'm saying
my answer,
-it's the same.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
'Cause I was gonna
say, I can't help-
I can't help
being a woman,
but he can't help
being a black man.
[Orna]
Right.
Right? So it's
like I'm-
I'm trying to argue my
point, and I can't, so-
And there's different
kinds of risks involved,
but they're risks.
I guess how we
approach it is-
is what makes
it different.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-Um...
you know, I'm a little bit
more aggressive than he is.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-Um...
-I w-
-I c- I- it's not a good idea
-for me to be aggressive.
-[Orna] He cannot afford
-to be aggressive.
-Right. [laughter]
-[Orna] Like-
-Right, right.
Th- and this doesn't
make me right
and it doesn't make
me right either, right?
I'm working on
that as well.
But this is not only a purely
psychological difference.
It's a real difference
in terms of th-
the real risks you
take in the world.
-Yeah.
-It's real life-
-[Orna] Yeah.
-Yeah.
-Life or death.
-[Orna] Life or death for real.
-Yeah.
-Mm-hm.
[Orna] I mean for women
too, in other ways,
-but-
-[Elaine] Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mm.
I'm sorry you
go through that.
I- I...
I...never really...
thought about it
in those terms.
[Desean]
I know.
The two of you do
not talk about it?
[Elaine] We do,
but not so in depth.
You know, I- I
asked you about,
"How do you
identify..."
you know, "wh-
where you're from?"
And you say,
you know-
"From Brooklyn."
Right.
But I mean your
ethnicity.
-But-
-[Orna] How do you identify?
I'm Puerto-
I'm Puerto Rican.
Like my- I'm
Puerto Rican.
I'm gonna probably
come across
as very selfish when I
finish this sentence.
-Go ahead.
-[Elaine] [laughs]
Everybody has
their own battle.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-I can't fight everybody's
-battle.
-[Orna] Right.
So you were
saying y- y-
that's not your
battle.
-It's not my battle.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
Everybody has
their own stuff.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-I can't add more-
I can't-
I'm a- I-
-I got a load of my own.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-I can't carry yours, too.
-[Orna] Yeah.
We all control
our story...
-and I feel like-
-Right.
-how-
-So if I choose to not...
give those establishments
my hard-earned money,
that should
be my choice
without being
made to feel like,
"Get over yourself."
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
Yeah.
I guess.
Then you wouldn't be
able to go anywhere.
Not true.
There's plenty of
places I can go.
Yeah, I don't want
to go to a dive bar.
There we go.
Now we've come back.
-We're full circle.
-[Orna] [laughs]
I- I- I'm not
doing that.
-Like-
-Now were full circle.
I don't-
yeah, no.
Do you have any thoughts
about what it's like
to see a white
therapist?
Like, what's that like?
[laughs] I didn't
even- it-
See...
and again, this is
where ignorance-
I- I- I don't
understand.
The fact that it- that
it's a white therapist-
-[Orna] Well, sorta white-
-You're gonna put us-
you're gonna put me
in The Sunken Place?
[laughter]
-[Orna] Did you see Get Out?
-[Elaine] Yes!
-[Desean] [laughs]
-[Orna] Oh, my God-
[Elaine]
Yes.
-[Orna] I mean, the- that film-
-[laughs]
[laughter]
If I see you
with a teacup
-and a spoon-
-[Orna] With a teacup.
We're gonna
have a problem.
[laughter]
Right.
It was both fascinating,
but a-
actually incredibly
upsetting.
Very complicated
discussion about race.
It feels like we
have to stop here
and talk about, like, American
history and talk about...
If you were
telling me
"There's a false truth
that he's living under
that needs to
be unpacked..."
that would be
one thing.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-[Virginia] But he's reporting
the vicious facts
of life
as lived by him.
He doesn't sound as if
he's one inch confused.
[Orna] No, he's
not confused.
He's muted.
He's not confused,
he's muted.
Yeah.
I really admire
your ambitions
for these sessions...
but I think...
you're not r-
getting that...
it is one session,
a session, in time.
Mm-hm.
And not everything
can happen-
-[Orna] Yeah.
-That-
and you- I know
you know that,
but you're left with a feeling
like "not good enough."
Yeah.
♪slow acoustic
picking♪
We're kind of waiting...
-to hear the results-
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-Of-
-[Orna] When's your test?
-Next week?
-Monday.
[Orna]
Oh, Monday.
I will be shocked if
I'm not pregnant
because I feel...
insane.
Like, I just feel...
-I don't feel good. [laughs]
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
[Sarah] But now,
this week, I'm like,
getting waves
of nausea and
feeling super tired,
super hungry.
The mood swings
are insane.
I'm-
[Orna] And you're not
taking anything?
You're not taking
any hormones-
No, I never took
any hormones.
[Orna] Progesterone,
nothing?
The first week,
I bloated.
Like, my stomach
bloated where I looked
like four or five
months pregnant.
-Yeah.
-And that was bizarre.
Like, I feel like I
know I'm pregnant.
-[Orna] Yeah.
-But...
But I'm scared to,
like, trust that.
Do you know
what I mean?
[Orna]
Yes.
Because the doctor
literally told us
it's like a zero
percent chance.
What?
[Sarah] Because Lauren's
sperm was, like,
not super
high-quality...
Uh-huh.
And then,
the day of-
I mean the individual
sperm are probably pretty-
-Okay, the...
-I mean there's probably
some pretty high-quality
ones in there-
-Oh my god, really?
-that are gonna make it.
But yeah, there
wasn't mu-
there wasn't enough,
and they weren't, uh...
-[Orna] Super mobile.
-Mobile.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-Enough.
So how do you guys
feel about that?
It was disappointing,
but...
I...
-feel it pretty intensely.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
And I don't,
like- [laughs]
now I'm like,
"Oh, sh*t, like, maybe I...
really am pregnant."
And I keep having
this moment of like,
"f*ck, what am I
gonna do?" [laughs]
And just like,
"No, no, I want to
have a baby.
They're just so much
work. [laughs]
-Mm-hm, yeah.
-And, like...
I'm ready
for it...
but... I'm really...
yeah, I don't know.
As a baby, they're
just gonna cry
-and need my body.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
I think I'm, like,
freaking out a little bit
about how much this
baby needs my body.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
Like the breastfeeding,
I'm nervous about that
'cause I'm nervous
about just giving, like-
-my body being on-demand.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
It's starting to
feel very real.
The caretaking,
being on-demand,
the body, the
physicality of it?
-[Sarah] Yeah.
-Mm-hm.
It's gonna be fine.
I can feel her
freaking out.
[Orna]
Tell me.
It- it- it is freaking
me out a little bit.
-You told me you were, like-
-[Sarah] I know.
So...
-10 million percent-
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
"It needs to be now,"
and like this is
what you want.
And then now
it's like,
"Uh...is it?"
-Mm-hm.
-[Lauren] And...
-once we're on this train-
-[Sarah] No, that's-
it's not,
"Um, is it?"
-Okay.
-It's not, "Um,
is this what I want?"
-[Lauren] Yeah.
-Like, this is what I want.
It's just like...
"Ohh, sh*t."
It's like the kitchen,
how we were like,
"Oh my god, this kitchen
is gonna be amazing,"
and then we tore
everything out
and we were like,
"f*ck, we just
gutted our kitchen."
-Yeah, I mean it feels-
-And at that moment-
Bring it back
from the analogy.
-It's-
-[Sarah] That moment
of being like...
"Ah, I want this
thing so bad,
and the price to pay is,
like, high." [laughs]
And I'm gonna pay
it, obviously,
because this is
what I want-"
[Orna]
The price being...?
The price being
my body.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
And I'm a little
bit resentful.
Like, why my body?
-Why?
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
Why can't your
body do this?
'Cause it can't.
I know, but, like, I think
that's, like, something
that you maybe don't
wrap your head around...
of like, yes-
Just like the kitchen, like,
I can't plan the kitchen.
I don't understand
that sh*t.
I couldn't have done
everything that you've done.
It's a bit different.
It- kind of.
No, not kind of.
I can't do what
you've done.
No, you- you could
do what I've done
with proper research.
I, in no way,
shape, or form,
can with any m- medical
marvel in current time
do what you're
about to do.
♪slow acoustic
picking♪
[Orna] I mean you have
to sometimes get lost
in the process to know
what's going on,
to feel it from within.
I sometimes have
dreams that are...
related to dreams that
my patients brought in.
Like my dream is
continuing their dream
'cause it meant
something to me.
I just see
incredible, like,
pressures on them
and, like, trauma
-from which they come-
-[Virginia] Absolutely.
That are, like...
-circulating-
-[Virginia] And all those hopes
laid on something
called...
"a middle-class
marriage."
-Yeah.
-[Virginia] Yeah.
Will my partner
be able to...
compensate for everything
that didn't happen for me...
or for all my agita
or for all my sorrows
or, um...
And if they're not doing
it, am I not loveable?
Am I bad?
Are they bad?
I- it's just like...
-[Virginia] Mm-hm.
-It's really extraordinary,
like h- how much, like,
the relationship has to bear.
[Virginia]
Right.
Um...
a- and I feel
for them all
-in that.
-[Virginia] Yeah.
♪emotional acoustic
strumming♪
[Orna]
So...
how are you two?
We left on an interesting
note last week.
The last week
has been, like...
not so great.
-Agreed.
-Mm.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
Really didn't talk to each
other much [laughs]
for the last seven days.
[Orna]
Okay.
[Alan] In the last week, I feel
more further away from her.
But what's going
on in your mind?
Just feel fed up
and frustrated
and that I-
I don't want to
do this anymore.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
I- I just feel like we're
kind of having, like,
a re-awakening on who
we are as individuals.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
And they may
not align...
as far as a relationship,
a marriage is concerned.
And, like...
I know it's supposed
to be, like,
I'm supposed
to take...
uh, responsibility
for the things
that I'm doing wrong.
But, like, my thing is-
is like it's her.
I just feel like
she's never happy.
Like, it's always
something with her.
But that's your summary
in your mind of-
of why...you're done?
Because she will
never be happy?
In a nutshell, yeah.
Where are you?
I don't know if we
mentioned this to you,
but...
we had...
bought a- another car.
It's a convertible.
In the summertime,
Alan started kind of
bringing it up.
Like, "It would be a great
chance for you and I
to, like...
make our first
purchase together
and kind of, like, start
building on that."
And long story short, he
ended up buying the car
on his own...
for himself...
and...told me that...
"It's for the both of us."
Like, he just wanted
to get it and...
get the paperwork done
and this and that,
but it was for
the both of us.
When Alan went away,
he took the keys of the garage
where the- we keep the car
'cause he didn't
want me to drive it.
And the reason I'm bringing
this up is because
it's a repetitiveness
of, like,
saying one thing and
doing the total opposite.
And that's been, like,
a recurring pattern
in our marriage,
-in our relationship.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
So when he
says to you...
that, "Oh, it's really about
me not being happy-"
[Orna] Mm-hm.
there's really a root
of those things.
There's a reason for it.
It's not because
I'm crazy.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
It's because there's a
foundation of that,
like, saying one thing and
then doing another thing.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-And that's...
And that's, in
a nutshell,
what it has been...
and how you
are with me.
[Orna] Right, of course
you're not crazy.
Neither of you are crazy.
But you're each kind of
entrenched in your own...
pattern.
[Orna] What do the two
of you want to do
with your relationship?
We know we're-
we're growing apart
and, like, this was...
like a-
like a last effort to try
to figure things out.
-And-
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
I just feel like
maybe...
the more layers
we pull back...
the more I realize,
like...
It's just I- I-
I don't f-
I don't even feel like
I have the want
-to pursue that anymore.
-[Orna] Yeah.
That's a, um...
difficult moment
of truth-
-[Evelyn] Yeah.
-that you're both expressing.
How much of
this kind of...
"maybe it's time to...
separate," how much of
that is true for you?
Do you feel like you're
Yes.
[Orna]
Yes?
Yes.
[Orna]
Mm-hm.
And you?
Yeah.
I- I don't- I don't
know what-
what else to do.
Like, I don't know...
if there's any cure for-
for it, because I just
feel like there's-
-It's not a disease.
-Huh?
It's not a disease.
Wanting to separate
or reaching an end
of a relationship is
not a disease.
But how do you know?
Like, are there tell-tale
things that it's it?
Is it- is it...based
on ea- every couple?
Every couple's different?
Like, h-
How do you know if
this is an end
that needs to happen
as opposed to just
running away from
something?
Is that what
you're asking?
No, I think he's asking,
"How do you know this-
like, whether these are
signs of it being the end,"
-kind of thing.
-Like, is there any,
like, textbook...
signs that we're
showing?
Like, "Yeah, maybe they
should probably, like,
-throw in the towel"?
-You're asking me
do you look like a couple
that's reached an end?
[Alan] Or from what
we've communicated to you.
-Like, uh-
-Um-
Or do you just feel like
we just stopped trying
and we're not even
trying anymore?
I'd have to spend a lot
more time with you
to really answer that...
fully, but...
um...
it takes, first of all, a
lot of love and want...
to change.
And you also have to...
want it enough that
you'd be willing
to change something
in yourself,
something
fundamental.
And that's a very
difficult thing to do.
You have to really
want the relationship
and love your partner in a
way that moves you
to transcend yourself.
♪ambient
synths♪
You know, everyone
hopes that, "Oh...
if I could just change
something in my partner,
if they were just this
way or that way,
it would be better."
But really, the only
change that happens
is if you- you-
you...
crave the relationship,
love the person enough
that you're gonna move
beyond something in yourself.
♪dark
synths♪
Why don't you
sit with...
what was said
here today?
And come back,
and let's see where
you're at.
♪♪♪
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