[door opens]
[Yaya VO] Yours
actually came out good.
[Cyn VO] Yours came out nice.
[Yaya VO] I was like, "Um--"
[Cyn VO] I was surprised
yours came out...
Oh...
[Yaya] Lemme see, turn?
You do have to dye
your hair, though.
Mm-hm.
-I see a lotta...
-White?
Yeah, you're salt
'n' pepper now.
[both laugh]
Hello
-Hi, Orna!
-Hey.
[Cyn] You're gonna
ask us how are we, right?
How are you?
[both laugh]
Um...
Well, we finally
had sex. [laughs]
upbeat theme music
-[Cyn VO] So we went away.
-[Orna VO] You did?!
We did, yeah, we
took your advice.
-[Orna] Great!
-Yeah.
Yeah, you lit some
fire up our butt.
That wasn't even, like,
advice; it didn't feel like advice.
-It's like "Go do it now."
-That was a prescription.
[Cyn] [laughing]
Yeah, yeah, literally.
[Yaya] "Like, you
need to go, like...
Like, when you leave here, you
need to just go home and pack
your bags."
[laughs]
So I think I did the hardest
thing I could ever [chuckles]
have done. I felt
like I sold my--
-Oh, she did.
-My soul to the Devil.
[Orna] Okay.
-[Yaya] I called my mother--
-Wow.
And I asked her to come stay
at our house with her mom--
Yeah, that a big move.
So that we could do
this, like we can go away.
Very interesting.
[Yaya] That I called
her, right? [chuckles]
That the whole session
started with your moms.
I mean, I don't know
yet what to make of it,
but it's interesting.
That's how it all started.
That's, like, a
big step for me--
[Orna] Yes.
-To, you know--
-[Orna] Very big.
'Cause I was just like,
[whispering] "Crap."
-Mm-hm.
-[Cyn] So we went away.
It was, like, beautiful
mountain views,
and it just felt so
calming for me.
[Orna] Yeah.
And I was just like, "Oh...
Let's see if she'll wake up."
She was like, "Honey,"
and I was like, "Oh, okay."
[Cyn] We got into it
real quick. [laughs]
But, you know, this is
what I was hoping for, right?
That you would
allow yourselves to,
like, get over this
kind of phobic block,
and first, just connect.
-[Yaya] Mm-hm.
-[Cyn] Yeah.
We were enjoying ourselves,
but we were probably,
like, in our heads.
Mm-hm.
[Yaya] You know,
because subconsciously,
that was, like, in
the back of my mind--
Mm-hm.
Like, "Oh my God, is this
gonna be good enough for her?"
Mm-hm.
Like, I tried to stay, like,
in the moment, and I did.
No, you were.
I did, I was in the
moment, I was present.
And it was good.
I did tell her we've had...
to me, more...
just, like, eventful sex.
Mm-hm.
But I understood it
just needed to be done.
Right.
[Yaya] It just needed to
be-- the bandaid needed to be
ripped off.
I think I was also trying to
get emotionally into it and I
couldn't get
emotionally into it.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
Which was slightly
frustrating for me.
Yeah, but then you're
putting so much pressure--
[Orna] Both of you are
putting so much pressure.
I mean, slowly, slowly,
small steps, like...
[Yaya] Yeah.
But the emotional
aspect of it...
I'm disconnected.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-And...
it had nothing to do with her.
She's-- it was-- it was all me.
[Orna] Yeah.
Where I'm like-- I don't have
the emotional connection to it.
Have you ever?
-I don't think I have.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
I think it's just always--
and I think it's always just
been an activity.
-[Orna] Yeah.
-It's like it-- there's a goal--
You need something that's
outside of you, in a way.
Yeah!
Like, even though I
have all these desires,
there's no emotional
connection to these desires.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
My emotional
connection is with her,
and I just need to find a way
to mesh the emotion and the
activity and just...
all be her.
That makes a lot of sense,
but there's a lot more that you
could be doing with each other
that will help you to reconnect.
Okay, so...
what are you talking about?
I'm talking about, like,
just exploring each other,
how it feels.
I mean, I don't know, focus on
a particular sensation and just
stay there, and connect...there.
-Hm.
-We could try.
-Just be present.
-[Yaya] Yeah.
Hm.
Can I send you some literature?
[Yaya] Yeah!
Absolutely, 'cause my
wheels are turning right now.
I will send you a
book, maybe even two.
Okay.
-Are you blushing?
-I'm not.
[chuckling] Yes, you...
I'm not, but I just like the
energy we have right now,
so... I'm enjoying it.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-I'm staying present, so...
cool funky music
[laughs]
[Orna VO] Let's talk
about India and Dale.
I'm looking for a language
of how to help expand the
conversation with them.
[Kali] Can I just
ask a question?
Has your whiteness
been named with them?
[Orna] In what way?
[Kali] Did they ever
challenge you about it?
No.
I want them to.
-[man] Mm.
-How?
[Kali] I think it would be
inquiring deeper about
that difference.
[man] Yeah.
Because I think they're
showing themselves but...
I'm-- there's obviously
more layers to them.
Like, she tells the story about
getting into an argument about
Sandra Bland, and I kept
thinking about how she feels so
much pressure to live
up to Dale's standards.
Mm-hm.
I feel like there's a way
Dale wants to silence her.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
Because of his own internal...
-[Orna] Insecurities.
-[Cynthia] Yeah.
That is that
internalized racism.
[Cynthia] Mm-hm.
Like, if they were
able to describe that...
Right. But how do you get there?
[Kali] I think
asking how it felt.
Mm-hm.
And you could
even be like, "I know,
like, I'm a white therapist, but
could you help me understand
what this feels like
from your perspective?"
Mm-hm.
It was a tough week...
starting from leaving
the last session.
Mm-hm.
We got into a heated
discussion about it.
[Orna] About this
christening party?
[Dale] Yeah.
I feel like he is the only
person that walked out of
that situation...
uneasy.
I'm not saying that
what happened is okay,
but it does happen, you know?
Mm-hm.
He has somewhere, at some point,
disconnected from
almost all emotions,
because it's not
just angry emotions.
I feel like when I'm trying to
connect with him being silly or
overly happy or--
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-It's always too much.
He never taps in.
It's not that I don't
have emotions.
I've cried plenty of times
in front of India, I've...
[Orna] Mm-hm.
But how many times
have we cried together?
-Um...
-It's the connectivity.
-Interesting.
-[India] You know?
We haven't-- I don't
think we've had anything
really where...
it's like we needed
to cry together over it.
I mean...
the birth of a child. [laughs]
Mm-hm.
There are times that I'm
trying to connect with you,
and I feel like I'm--
the bar is missed.
Okay, okay. I-- I get that.
-Emotionally.
-Yeah.
But do you recognize
something in that?
[Dale] No, no, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think the
industry that I'm in,
when I started
out in real estate,
I would get-- sometimes, I
would get so high off of maybe
something happening, and
then it turns out it doesn't happen.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And then, you have to pick
yourself up and be able to work
again, you know?
So I've trained
myself to, you know,
kind of be just kind
of even-keel and--
You've probably trained
yourself to be even-keeled
about... other things,
too, emotionally.
Mm-hm.
And maybe when you see
a lot more going on in India,
more feelings...
[Dale] Mm-hm.
Some kind of alarm
goes off in you.
Yeah.
Definitely.
[Orna] What if you asked
yourself "I seem to be alarmed.
Am I jealous?
Have I had to...
cut things off?"
Yeah, for sure, it's
not-- it's not jealousy.
Um...
I wouldn't be completely...
-[Dale] Yeah!
-Convinced.
Well, I do admire the fact
that she can act freely with
her emotions.
[Orna] Mm-hm, yes.
I think, also, for me,
being a Black man,
that's a little bit different.
Right.
I'm not allowed, in
society, to just....be...
be mad.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
You know, hell, there are
nights that I take Lincoln,
our dog, out for a walk, and
I'm not even allowed to be cold.
If I put my hoodie on and
I'm walking next to someone--
[Orna] Right.
Immediately, they'll stop and
wait for me to pass, you know?
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-I'm just cold.
-Right.
-[Dale] You know?
But-- [sighs]
I don't wanna get too
much into that but--
You can get into that. I mean...
why not?
It matters.
It-- [sighs]
It's a luxury that I don't have.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And regardless of--
But even with that, did you
see what just happened?
Yeah.
There are a lot of moments
like this where I'm almost like...
"Are we sharing the same
Black experience?" [chuckles]
-[Orna] Yeah.
-Well, of course we are.
Because I know you are going
through what Black men go
through, but you
don't tap into that,
you don't talk about that, so...
Can I ask you...
India, you said earlier
that it's different to speak to
someone who's other
than to each other.
Do you feel, as
a person of color,
a lot of discomfort
to talk to me?
I feel like I have to...
dress it up a bit--
-Mm-hm.
-[India] For you.
-Mm-hm.
-[India] Um...
Dress it up so I
will understand?
Or dress it up so I will not...
Yeah, dress it up
so you'll understand.
Mm-hm.
[India] You know,
from our scope.
Mm-hm.
Because there is still the
layer of "I'm speaking to a
white woman right now, I need
to address it in a certain way."
-Yeah.
-But I wanna face it head-on.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
I wanna talk to you, the
white person, about it.
Yeah.
'Cause this is how
we move forward--
-[Orna] Absolutely.
-This is how we get better.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
[India] We just have to face
the traumatic emotions head-on.
Right, strong
feelings like...anger.
[India] Yeah, right!
And I think the difference
between the two of us is he
doesn't-- you know, he does
not want to acknowledge his
emotions.
Mm-hm.
He-- he talks
about it briefly but,
you know, it's
balled up, move on.
No, I've shared
with you, you know,
the beginning stages of me
starting a business and what
that was like being a Black man.
Yeah.
I mean, I had people coming
to my office -- that was set up in
an office building -- asking
me if I'm running a scam.
[sighs]
As feel as though I can either
let it get me upset and bog me
down, or I can push through
and make things happen.
I choose to push through
and make things happen.
But there's some way that
you deal with the emotional
implications of whatever
we're talking about differently.
[Dale] Yeah.
And I think India is suggesting
that you do some kind of
dissociation there, that
you cut yourself off from that.
I-- I'm a li-- [sighs] I-- I'm
always torn between that,
because it's like...
you know, what am I
supposed to do with that,
you know?
Mm-hm.
It's like I'm here trying to
just make a living for myself.
What am I supposed
to do with that?
[Orna] Yeah.
I'm sorry. [sniffles]
Why are you sorry?
Well, the way I see it
sometimes is that even the
acknowledgment is so taxing.
So...
I don't know, sometimes
I choose just not to...
not to give validation to it...
and just...
But I just wanna understand; so
when you say-- when you allow
yourself more
contact with feelings...
[Dale] Mm-hm.
And you say, "What am I
supposed to do with this?."..
what happens
between the two of you?
Is there somewhere for that
to go between the two of you?
Mm...
Well, I mean, well-- [laughs]
I would ask the question "What
is she supposed to do with it?"
-Yeah.
-You know?
It's-- it's...
Obviously, I have
shared with her,
but I don't necessarily want a--
But do you get upset?
-In that moment?
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-Uh, no, no, not really.
-He's just very matter-of-fact.
-No.
-[chuckles]
Because...
first of all, that is, like, a
great burden to carry on your
own, and even if
you dissociate from it,
it's still there--
-[Dale] Yeah.
-Weighing on you.
[Dale] Yeah.
So there's plenty of things
that happen when you share it
with another person
and you feel understood.
-Mm-hm.
-It has this kind of...
miraculous...
power to transform very
difficult feelings to something
that becomes useful.
Yeah.
And help the two of you
deepen what you have together.
-Mm.
-Yeah.
And it's-- and it's exactly what
I yearn for from her at times:
to be more vulnerable.
-[Orna] Mm-hm.
-Yeah.
[Orna] Yeah.
mellow folk music
[laughs]
[Orna VO] So I wanted
to go back to gender.
I feel like there's this pattern
with these men that are not as
expressive, and they
attach themselves to very
expressive women.
[man VO] Mm-hm.
And they develop this
somewhat-parasitic relationship
with these women...
[man] Mm-hm.
To keep doing that
kind of work for them.
Mm.
[Orna] And I find that
with, like, Josh and Molly.
Mm.
It's like constantly
putting this kind of
gas nozzle into her--
[Eyal] He's actually
feeding off her.
Yes.
And constantly inviting
her to emote towards him,
whether by aggression
or love or demands or...
But how about if we think
about it as a child -- a baby boy --
and a mother, and
the baby needs to feed.
So in that sense, it's
not parasitic, it's survival.
Mm-hm.
But she's trying to get
things from him, too.
[Orna] Yes.
And they're both
stuck in a paradox;
she's asked to be
the needy one who,
at the same time, provides...
and he, he needs-- he
needs, but he cannot...
say it.
Yes.
And this dynamic
drives her crazy.
[Eyal] Mm.
I got, for our family, like,
a calendar -- a whiteboard
calendar -- so that we
can really keep track,
'cause everyone's schedules
is getting kinda crazy.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
[Molly] And so,
everyone is a color, okay?
Nice.
So I said, "Magnolia,
pick your color.
Vienna, pick your
color," and then I said,
"Josh, pick your color.
You can be any color."
"I don't know,
should I be green?"
-This is Josh speaking?
-[Molly] Yes.
"I don't know, should I be blue?
This is hard; it's hard
for me to pick a color,"
and I said, "I just need you
to pick a color so that I can do
what I need to
do for our family."
And then he said, "Fine, green."
And then, he excused
himself to go downstairs.
[Orna] Mm-hm.
And I went
downstairs and I said,
"Are you okay?"
And he said, "I just-- I
just needed a moment."
-Mm-hm.
-[chuckles]
[Orna] You're laughing...?
It's-- it's a f*cking
dry eraser color.
Well, no, I
actually think I said,
"I don't care, whatever
color you want"
I think is what I said.
And you were like, "No,
I want you to choose,"
and then I was like, "Uh..."
Because I don't wanna-- that's
extra work for me that I don't
wanna have to do.
"Green or purple. I'm
thinking green or purple."
He should just...
[Josh] But it's hard to choose
between green and purple.
Why...can't...you...
make...a choice? [laughs]
Why?!
I mean, look where it got
us when you couldn't make a
decision about whether we
should have a third child or not.
Can you-- I mean, we
can go back to the markers,
but can you fill me in on this?
We talked about if we
should have a third child or not.
[Orna] Mm-hm. Who
was saying what?
[Molly] I was
saying I wanted to.
He was ambivalent but, as
we've talked about it further,
was afraid to tell me no,
or afraid to say "We need
more time to think about it."
He just didn't make a choice.
Wait, what-- what's-- tell
me your version of the story.
Well, this is in-- this also is
when I-- this is the-- when I
first got emotionally involved
with this person about eight
years ago.
I think at that time, I was very
confused about a lot of things,
and...
I've always worried
about keeping...
you happy.
I think probably at the time, I
knew it was something that was
important to you, so
it didn't feel like my...
qu-- question mark about it
was stronger than how you
were feeling.
[Molly] [sighs]
The one thing that I have asked
for in our marriage that I have
said will make me happy...
is to talk with me about what
he wants or what he thinks,
so that we can
do things together.
I just want him to include
me in his questions.
I don't need him
to make a decision.
[sniffles] I just
wanna be included.
But what you're asking for
happens to be both difficult for
Josh but also--
But then he should-- then he
shouldn't have stayed in this
marriage in the first place,
because I've been asking for it
from the beginning!
Right, but the solution to that,
in your mind, is for Josh to--
[Molly] I don't know
what the solution is!
I need he-- I want he--
I'm trying to talk to you.
[Molly] Okay.
Okay.
So you have a very clear,
intense idea about what you
need, which is to say you want
there not to be kind of a side
stream where Josh
lives separately,
maybe in a somewhat-vague
state, while trying to make you happy.
But the solution is not
simply getting what you need.
Mm-hm.
The solution has partially to
do with you understanding how
the intensity of your ask...
if affecting the feel
between the two of you.
But when will it become
a conversation of
"Okay, well...
but you have to look at the
way that Molly engages in
conversation or what
she needs," you know?
I just feel like... [sniffles]
Meaning that you're being
asked to adjust to Josh's rhythm...
Yes!
[Orna] But you don't feel
like Josh is getting any kind of
pressure to adjust to yours?
[Molly] Yes! [sniffles]
I do not know if Josh feels this
feeling that he needs to make
changes, and the
unfortunate thing is the way
that I have chosen...
to scream and yell at him that
he needs to do some f*cking work
himself has been by
having my own relationships
with other people.
It's like my way of screaming
at the top of my lungs!
[sniffles]
But the fact that you think
that I haven't done anything,
that I haven't done
any work or grown at all,
first of all--
But I have asked
repeatedly the same thing,
and it ha-- and every single
time we get to sit on a couch,
and I need to understand who
you are and how you're sensitive and
this and that--
That's not-- that's not true.
That's not a fair statement.
[Orna] Can I interrupt?
Because what I feel like I'm
doing with the two of you right
now is actually putting
pressure on Josh to...
articulate yourself much more
clearly and to understand how
you're...
thriving by relying
on Molly's...
intensity.
I guarantee you he
does not see it that way,
and until you just said that,
he did not realize that you were
putting pressure
on him to think that.
I guarantee you.
He is thinking, "Okay,
she understands me,
she really sees
my authentic self,
and my authentic
self is who I am,
and to change that
would be unauthentic!
She's not asking me to
look at that and change it,
she's really
understanding it, and now,
I get to say, 'See?
This is who I am.
It's hard for me to make choices
or blah-blah-blah-blah-blah,'
and I'm not supposed to
not be my authentic self."
Guarantee it.
Would you like
to...respond to that?
Is that what's going on?
No.
No, it seemed very clear to me
at the beginning that you were
pressuring-- asking Molly not to
talk and continuing to ask me to
go to-- to...
try and figure out
what was going on.
Granted, this is something
that happened eight years ago,
and since then...
we've made a lot of
tough choices together,
as a couple.
Together, we've made choices.
Josh, I was in a relationship
for five years with someone
else, and a year and a half
ago, I was in a relationship with an
ex-girlfriend.
I am still screaming.
Yeah, but f*ck that, and
f*ck that to say that, like...
I mean, the way you're just
saying it is like if I had done
something, you wouldn't
have done those things.
That's not what I'm saying!
And that some--
and that somehow,
if I had just gotten it right--
No! I'm not--
You wouldn't have
done those things.
That's exactly
what it sounds like!
It's not about getting it right!
There's not a right--
"I'm screaming at you to
do what I'm asking you to do.
Do it the way I
want you to do it,
I've be screaming--"
[Molly] What am I
asking you to do?
Really? Is this really
an interrogation?
-Is that how we're gonna do it?
-No, Josh!
I'm not--
Where you're leading me
down the path to get me to the--
-I'm not interrogating you--
-Answer that you're hoping for?
No, I'm not interrogating you--
[Josh] It feels like
it, it feels like it.
I'm trying to see if you can
repeat what I have been asking
for years.
I could have been more present,
I could have talked to you more
about all the things
that I was feeling,
about the questions
I was having, about--
So why isn't that happening now?
It...is...happening...now!
It hasn't happened
for the past week.
But we've been talking
so much more deeply about
everything for...
It-- it is happening!
What do you mean
it's not happening?!
[Molly] [sniffles]
I am, like, so bothered right
now that you're sitting there
like that with
this attitude that,
like, I am being ridiculous
and that I'm interrogating you,
when all I am saying
to you is I don't think...
that you have been doing...
the work that you say you have!
[Orna] Okay, we're gonna
have to stop 'cause we've run
out of time.
And hopefully, we
can pick up from here.
Yeah.
"after it all blew over" by otta
[sniffles]
[door slides open]
[Josh] Thank you.
[Molly] Thank you.
After it all blew over
After it all blew over
After it all blew over
After it all blew over
After it all blew over
After it all blew over
After it all blew over
After it all blew over
Welcome to our World! Where we serve you cookies to ensure you get the best viewing experience on our site.
Did you know that you can remove censorship board-wide, use our advanced search functions, be notified when new content is posted, join our memberships, set episodes to show in any order you want & more if you are logged into your account?
Register or sign in here: ucp.php?mode=register
Did you know that you can remove censorship board-wide, use our advanced search functions, be notified when new content is posted, join our memberships, set episodes to show in any order you want & more if you are logged into your account?
Register or sign in here: ucp.php?mode=register