Welcome to our World! Where we serve you cookies to ensure you get the best viewing experience on our site.

Did you know that you can remove censorship board-wide, use our advanced search functions, be notified when new content is posted, join our memberships, set episodes to show in any order you want & more if you are logged into your account?

Register or sign in here: ucp.php?mode=register

02x07 - Sarinana and Marzejka

Episode transcripts for the TV show, "K*llers: Caught on Camera". Aired: February 15, 2023.*
Watch/Buy Amazon


True crime documentary series with unique access to the video footage that leads to the conviction of K*llers around the world.

02x07 - Sarinana and Marzejka

Post by bunniefuu »

[suspenseful music]

NARRATOR: This time, on "K*llers Caught on Camera,"

in the United States, Colorado, an abandoned car full of trash

is cause for suspicion.

There was a distinct odor.

Every police officer knows the smell of death.

NARRATOR: The SWAT team moves in on a suspect.

And in Michigan, a young couple disappears.

Two black bags in a shed put police on the path

to a double m*rder*r.

MAN 1: It just sounds like something

bad is happening to her.

WOMAN: We know what happened because the video

tells us what happened.

MAN 2: I heard some g*nshots.

POLICEMAN: Drop it.

Whatever it is, drop it.

That does not prove that I k*lled my wife.

MAN 3: The camera doesn't lie.

NARRATOR: Arvada, Colorado.

Just a few miles northwest of the state capital, Denver.

Home to 38-year-old Veronica Sarinana,

one of five children who grew up to love music and cheerleading.

She went on to have two sons of her own,

her firstborn arriving when Veronica was 20.

Later, she worked at a bank.

By June 2019, Veronica was living

back home with her parents.

But in the early hours of Wednesday, June 19,

Veronica went missing.

On the same day, 911 dispatchers received a call

from an employee at a church with a tip about a body

in an obscure location.

In the background, someone could be heard prompting the caller.

Sergeant Kate Herrlinger responded to the call

to investigate the claim.

She said that there was a man in the church

and that she wanted to report a crime.

Essentially, the crime was that his brother

had k*lled his girlfriend and placed her into the trunk

of a vehicle near his home.

As soon as we heard we possibly have a body in our car,

we're thinking we have a homicide.

We need to treat this as a homicide.

NARRATOR: It was a serious allegation with a named suspect

who lived close to the car.

When the police arrived at the address they'd been given,

they found a white Ford Escort.

It was abandoned, unregistered for two years,

and stuffed full of trash.

When police questioned neighbors,

they thought the visible limbs and the abandoned car

were part of a mannequin.

There was a distinct odor of rotting, of death.

Every police officer knows the smell of death.

There was a female body in the car.

Her head was down near the floorboard.

Her feet were almost up on the seat.

My initial response is we need to get our CSIs out.

We need to get the lab out.

We were concerned with the rising temperatures

that we would start to lose physical evidence, DNA

off of the body.

NARRATOR: Detective Chris Steiner was called in to capture

a 3D scan of the crime scene.

CHRIS STEINER: The car is a critical part

in this particular scene because that's

where the body is located at.

We use a 3D terrestrial laser scanners.

It allows us to make a virtual copy of a crime scene.

And we can go back to that crime scene any time we need to.

NARRATOR: They needed to examine the body buried

beneath the bags of garbage.

MATT ARCHULETA: Upon death, the body continues

to change as it decays.

So we ultimately sealed the car and then

had it towed with the body in it back to the police station.

NARRATOR: The question was, how did the body get in the car?

They only had one lead--

the man named in the 911 call, Frank Moffat, who lived just

around the corner from the car.

The police moved in.

Frank Moffat was arrested and taken into custody.

He basically said that he had nothing to do with the homicide,

had no idea how she ended up inside this vehicle

that he was using at the time.

NARRATOR: The police quickly got to work,

searching for evidence in and around Frank's house.

They also canvassed the area for surveillance footage.

KATE HERRLINGER: We need to knock on every single door

and then get as much footage as we possibly could.

Everybody has cameras these days.

NARRATOR: Meanwhile, the crime scene investigation team

got to work on the white car.

This was not just a female placed in the back

of an empty vehicle.

The car had a rolled-up rug.

It had trash bags.

It had car batteries.

It was packed full of stuff.

Each item had to meticulously be taken out of the car.

We processed some of the items for DNA.

It was a very lengthy, slow process.

NARRATOR: They used the 3D scanner

to ensure that every possible piece

of evidence was documented.

Detective Matt Archuleta had to examine the evidence in the car

and what the body itself revealed

about the cause of death.

MATT ARCHULETA: There was a small trickle

of, like, a bloody substance coming

out of one of the eye sockets.

And it had a downward shape to it in the sense

that it had run down the nose and then dried.

Following gravity, that would indicate

the head was in an upright position

when that drop came out.

It was fairly obvious that the death had occurred somewhere

else, that the body was put into the car by someone,

and then that the body was covered

with trash to hide the body.

NARRATOR: Once the police were able to remove the body

from the car, they used a fingerprint

scanner to identify the victim.

Her name was Veronica Sarinana, the same woman

who'd been reported missing.

The police notified Veronica's family of her death

and started to try and piece together how she died.

We contacted family, more specifically her mother,

and started to get details.

We wanted a time frame of her whereabouts.

NARRATOR: Doorbell footage showed the last time Veronica

was seen, at her mom's house on the afternoon of June 18,

the day before she was found in the car.

Speaking with Veronica's family, the police

discovered that she'd been in a relationship

with a man named Chris Moffat, the same man who initiated

the 911 call about the body in the car and blamed his brother,

Frank Moffat.

Veronica's mother said it was a very tumultuous relationship.

There were plenty of times that Chris put his hands on Veronica.

There were times he strangled her.

He went to jail for this.

He had just gotten out of jail.

There was an active restraining order attempting

to keep him away from her.

He had possibly k*lled one of her cats.

His behavior was very erratic.

I think she was very scared of him.

However, for whatever reason, she kept going back to him,

and they kept this relationship going.

There's a psychological effect known as trauma bonding, which

is when you are in a domestic violence situation,

and you keep returning to your ab*ser.

And the reason for that is because they're violent,

and then they're really nice to you,

and then they show a lot of love,

and then they're violent again.

And in those nice moments, you develop

this response where you almost accept the bad with the good.

And you keep going back, hoping for the good.

NARRATOR: Kyle McElroy was a detective for the Arvada police

department.

Veronica's family were worried about her safety.

She had come back to her family.

She had told her, I don't feel safe.

I can't be around Chris anymore.

She even made the statement, if I disappeared, look at Chris.

NARRATOR: Two months before Veronica's death,

Chris Moffat had posted a series of strange videos online.

A lot of people who are perpetrators

of domestic violence, we know that they have

issues with anger management.

We know that they don't have good conflict resolution skills.

So it's not that someone is sitting there planning the cycle

of, I'm going to do something terrible to this person,

and then I'm going to make up.

It's more that someone is unable to regulate the emotions when

they feel angry and then goes back

and overwhelms someone with love.

So I think it's from both sides.

It's a very broken relationship structure.

But I think people often blame the woman for going back when we

should obviously be focusing on the men who keep engaging

in this violent behavior.

NARRATOR: Chris's violent behavior was an ongoing concern.

Veronica's texts showed that they

were seeing each other right up to the day she went missing.

The messages reinforced that she was fearful of him.

Chris was now a key person of interest.

The police needed to find him.

KYLE MCELROY: About that time is when we also realized

we are missing her car.

We're going to try and notify all

the other law enforcement agencies around the state

at this point that--

it's called a BOLO.

Be On the Lookout for this vehicle.

NARRATOR: Veronica's car was a blue Mitsubishi Gallant.

It was tracked down the same day as Veronica was discovered, just



KATE HERRLINGER: On June 19, late in the evening,

around 11:30-ish, Glenwood Springs Police Department

locates Chris sitting in a Walmart parking lot, and he

is in Veronica's vehicle.

So they arrested him and booked him into the county jail

up there.

NARRATOR: Inside Chris's wallet were recent receipts.

They gave the police critical information.

Those paper receipts being in the car

were huge for us because all the receipts are time-stamped.

And what we found was it looked that Chris

and Veronica had taken a trip to Lake Dillon together.

NARRATOR: A hotel room keycard led them

to cameras and their first sighting of Veronica.

This is the surveillance footage from the Luxury Inn.

And this was really important because, as you can see here,

this is the first time that we saw Chris and Veronica

together up at Lake Dillon.

And it gave us a really great starting point

to try and develop the timeline from here.

One of the other things we learned in this video,

as you can see, it's Veronica, and then you see the purse

that Veronica is carrying here.

And that is a purse that continued to come

up in this investigation.

NARRATOR: The same purse was filmed

by a camera pointing directly at Frank Moffat's house.

The purse was hung on the front door by an unidentified male.

It was recovered from the front door and taken in as evidence.

That was a really key piece for us

because we now know that this is the purse

that Veronica is carrying.

She has with her in some of the final moments when she's alive,

and then it pops up back in Arvada.

NARRATOR: Veronica was also captured on camera

at a nearby liquor store in Lake Dillon in the early evening

on June 18.

KYLE MCELROY: We see that Veronica is still alive,

buying items that correspond directly with the receipts

that we found in her car.

So all of this is just narrowing down

a timeline of when we're trying to determine

when this crime happened.

It was one of the highest-quality videos

that we were able to recover.

And we get really lucky here in that we

get a clear shot of the purse.

NARRATOR: She was also filmed withdrawing money at an ATM.

Every single time we could catch Veronica alive on camera,

we knew that we needed to keep going because the crime

would happen soon after that.

This is the last video where we see Veronica alive.

NARRATOR: The cash withdrawal was in the early evening.

And with Chris now in custody, detectives

questioned him about his trip to Lake Dillon

with Veronica on June 18.

Chris described the whole evening

with Veronica on the Tuesday night in Lake Dillon.

Chris then suggested that the police

investigate the nature of Frank's relationship

with Veronica.

The police wanted to understand why

Chris persisted to link his brother with Veronica's death.

Chris was under the impression during his time in jail,

his brother and Veronica had started a relationship

and were seeing each other all the time.

We knew that wasn't true, but Chris was convinced of it.

JULIA SHAW: The thing with jealousy

is that it doesn't matter if it's true.

What's particularly pernicious when it's not true

is that you take every single protest

that that partner is offering you as further indication

of their deception.

And so it's this vicious cycle where the person keeps saying,

no, I'm not cheating on you, and you go,

that's exactly what a cheater would say.

And we know that jealousy is a major contributor, especially

when combined with poor conflict resolution skills,

to domestic violence and also to intimate partner homicide.

NARRATOR: While Chris and Veronica were at Lake Dillon,

there were a series of texts sent from Veronica's phone.

They were to Chris's brother, Frank, just after 8:00 PM.

We began to notice that the night before the discovery

of the body that the tones and the words that

are used within the text messages

are fundamentally different than all of the text

messages we see before.

NARRATOR: The language used was suspicious,

and it was unclear why Veronica would be texting

Frank when she was with Chris.

The police decided to confront him.

KYLE MCELROY: Ultimately, he said

that his brother had told him that he had m*rder*d Veronica.

And Chris was saying that he felt

guilty about ratting his brother out,

and that was the reason that he fled.

He basically claims, hey, I took

her down to my brother's house on the 19th.

I dropped her off.

I don't know anything else about that.

And then he asked for an attorney.

NARRATOR: As a result, the police

became increasingly reliant on surveillance footage.

It showed inconsistencies in Chris's testimony.

Veronica's car was captured on camera

leaving Lake Dillon just before 8:00 PM on Tuesday, June 18.

The change in tone in the texts coincided with Veronica's car

leaving Lake Dillon.

KYLE MCELROY: When we see that car coming out of Dillon Dam

Road over by Lake Dillon, we start to get the idea she's

not using the phone anymore.

NARRATOR: Her car was picked up again at 10:40

PM at a Walmart near Frisco.

It parks in the parking lot of Walmart.

You see Chris get out.

You never see Veronica get out.

And we can watch as he comes into the store.

We can clearly see him on surveillance.

We identify him by the clothes he's wearing.

His physical features are the same.

We don't see Veronica again.

From the minute that they leave Lake Dillon,

Chris is the only one seen exiting that vehicle.

NARRATOR: The next morning, Chris

was seen at another Walmart, just nine miles

from where Veronica's body was found

in the unregistered white car.

This was the camera angle that we used to definitively say

that all the features that we can see in the video

are consistent.

The text on the front of the shirt, the white collar, the hat

that he's wearing, and the physical features that we see

on him continue to be consistent with who we know to be Chris

Moffat walking out of the Walmart just

about an hour before the 911 call is made.

NARRATOR: Detectives compared all the different surveillance

footage over the three days.

The clothing was a direct match with what Chris was wearing

in the Luxury Inn, the clothes found in Veronica's car,

and crucially, the figure hanging

the bag on Frank's front door.

KYLE MCELROY: This was the clip that really

kind of tied it all together.

We see a man.

We know his physical features are the same as Chris.

And you can clearly see him hanging a purse.

We had seen this purse appear over and over again.

It has been with Veronica every time we've seen it.

NARRATOR: Chris Moffat was clearly

identified planting evidence.

We're sure that Chris was trying to frame his brother.

NARRATOR: The surveillance footage

also confirmed Frank's alibi.

We noticed that the brother had come in 12 to 18 hours

or a long time before, and he never

leaves again, which was consistent with what

his statement was.

NARRATOR: Back at the crime scene investigation lab,

Matt Archuleta had another breakthrough.

Chris Moffat's fingerprint was found on a trash bag

inside the white car, contradicting

Chris's version of events.

One of those stories was that he wasn't in the car,

he didn't put the trash into the car,

and he had nothing to do with it.

The fingerprint on the trash bag told us otherwise.

Now we know Chris was in that vehicle.

When he claimed to have nothing to do with Veronica's death

and nothing to do with being in or around that vehicle,

we now have him placed inside that car.

NARRATOR: The fingerprint and the footage

were vital for proving that it was Chris

Moffat who k*lled Veronica.

KYLE MCELROY: Seeing Chris on camera planting evidence

in his brother's house allowed us to focus on him

as a suspect within 24 hours of this crime

occurring, which is so vital in any homicide investigation.

We knew how Veronica had been k*lled,

when she had been k*lled.

We felt confident that an argument

had broken out like it had before,

and it had turned physical.

We knew from looking at Veronica's body,

the most likely cause of death was asphyxiation

or being strangled to death.

And so that would be consistent with an argument breaking out.

NARRATOR: There are 65 miles between Lake Dillon and Arvada

with plenty of places to pull over.

KATE HERRLINGER: Up at Lake Dillon,

there are some pull-off spots that people sit,

and they can enjoy the views of the lake.

And we believe that's where he actually m*rder*d her

and then drove her back to Arvada

to dump her body in the car at his brother's house.

JULIA SHAW: Framing someone for a crime that you committed

is incredibly difficult to do.

We almost always see it in organized crime circumstances

and basically nowhere else.

And the reason for that is that it takes a lot of planning

to successfully frame someone.

And most m*rder is committed as an impulsive or bad

decision in the moment.

In this case as well, he wasn't planning to k*ll her probably.

It happened because it was a domestic violence

situation where he lost control, and he went too far.

But if you don't plan it, you can't plan also

who you're going to frame, how you're going to make sure

that they don't have an alibi, how you plant the evidence

like a purse on a handle.

It's going to be really hard to successfully frame that person.

NARRATOR: The question remains, why did Chris k*ll Veronica?

KATE HERRLINGER: He believed she was having

an affair with his brother.

I think he was jealous.

I think he was angry.

And I don't think he wanted her to ever

be with anyone else but him.

NARRATOR: Chris Moffat pled guilty to second-degree m*rder

and abuse of a corpse.

He was sentenced to 55 years in prison.

JULIA SHAW: It must have been a terrorizing force in her life

to have this relationship and to be drawn back in repeatedly,

knowing that she was likely to be strangled

again, to be hit again.

In some ways, this is a case study

in intimate partner homicide.

And what we should take from this isn't, wow,

why did she keep going back?

What we should take from this is, wow,

why did nobody intervene and take him aside and train him

on conflict management and make sure that his anger

management was under control?

NARRATOR: Veronica Sarinana was trapped.

Extreme violence in her relationship became the norm.

This is a global issue.

JULIA SHAW: Femicide, which is the k*lling of women and girls,

it's a form of gender-based violence.

Every single day, 133 women are k*lled

in the world at the hands of family members and loved ones.

So there's even more women who are k*lled,

but just by people who allegedly love them,



NARRATOR: In our next case, someone

you'd expect to be loving turned out to be quite the opposite.

Detroit, Michigan.



lies Clinton Township, home to the Marzejka family.

The father Robert Sr., his two sons

Robert Jr. and Kevin, and also the youngest child,

daughter Danielle, and her boyfriend, Seren Bryan.

Ava Glass is a crime journalist with a fascination

for family dynamics.

AVA GLASS: Danielle and Seren were a young couple.

She was 18.

He was 19.

Danielle was a little more outgoing,

a little more vivacious.

She was a free spirit who didn't always

like to do the things everybody else did, whereas Seren was

described by his friends and his family

as quiet, introspective, and artistic.

He liked to express himself through drawing

more than he liked talking.

But Danielle, he could talk to all the time.

And everybody who knew them saw them as a close and very happy

couple.

NARRATOR: Danielle and Seren worked and lived together.

AVA GLASS: Danielle and Seren both lived with Danielle's

father and her two brothers.

They shared a mobile home.

It was quite crowded, but everything seemed perfectly

normal, until one night, Danielle and Seren returned

from their all-night job at a local restaurant,

were dropped off by a colleague, and then

they completely disappeared.

NARRATOR: On August 26, 2018, 911 dispatchers

received a disturbing call from Danielle's

brother, Kevin Marzejka.

Police responded to the scene, recording on body-worn cameras.

Kevin Marzejka and his father Robert Sr.

met them on the steps of their home.

The patrol officers prepared to deal with potentially

sensitive evidence.

They see inside these large plastic bags,

two really large plastic bags shoved at the back,

and they see a leg.

NARRATOR: The home was considered a crime scene.

An investigation was launched to find out

who the body parts belonged to and how

they ended up in the shed.

They searched inside the home for evidence.

In Danielle and Seren's bedroom were key items

Danielle would normally carry with her.

ROBERTA BABB: Danielle's phone charger was still there.

Danielle was someone who was always on her phone to the point

that she needed to have a phone charger to top up her battery,

and it was something that she would never leave home without.

NARRATOR: Danielle had diabetes and was dependent on insulin

to maintain her blood sugar levels.

Not only was her phone charger still there,

but also, her insulin was still there.

NARRATOR: Outside, police guarded the shed.

The bags of what appeared to be human remains

couldn't be removed until the scene had been fully documented.

Danielle's father Robert Sr. and brother Kevin

could only watch and wait for the police

to confirm who was inside the bags.

The police needed to work out what happened.

Kevin Marzejka was convinced that the human remains

in the shed were his 18-year-old sister Danielle

and her boyfriend Seren.

But the police still had to confirm it was Danielle

and Seren's remains in the shed.

Forensic investigators use luminol, a chemical

that reacts with hemoglobin, to detect

blood under black UV light.

A luminol test inside the bedroom

that Danielle and Seren had shared

found evidence of blood spatter.

Extensive blood spatter, in fact.

And then also, cleaning fluids that had been

used to try and eliminate it.

NARRATOR: As they removed furniture and carpet,

it became clear that there had been

a violent struggle in Danielle and Seren's bedroom.

Danielle's father Robert Sr. and her brother Kevin

were taken to the police station for questioning.

Kevin was asked about the strength of Danielle

and Seren's relationship.

During the police interview, it became clear that Danielle's

brother Robert Jr. was missing.

Dr. Roberta Babb is a clinical psychologist.

Robert Jr. in 2011 developed symptoms of mental illness

to the point that his family became incredibly concerned

and sought medical intervention.

After evaluations and discussions

with medical professionals, Robert Jr.

was diagnosed with schizophrenia,

bipolar disorder, and paranoia.

What we also know is that from 2011 onwards,

due to his erratic behavior, he was hospitalized two or three

times over a nine-year period.

NARRATOR: Kevin had no idea where his elder brother was.

The police spoke with Robert Sr. to try and work

out where Robert Jr. had gone.

Robert Jr.'s phone records revealed

that he'd called a cab to pick him

up from the home on Thursday, August 23,

the same day Danielle and Seren went missing.

The cab driver told detectives that he'd taken Robert Jr.

to Walgreens and then Wendy's.

By analyzing the route the cab took,

the police found surveillance footage that

tracked Robert Jr.'s movements.

After going to Wendy's on August 23,

he was caught on camera taking a bus.

He traveled for an hour and 20 minutes before getting off.

Five minutes later, he was picked up on surveillance

cameras entering a Tim Hortons.

Shortly afterwards, Robert Jr. returned home.

The video footage of Robert Marzejka Jr.

was incredibly helpful.

Every place he was picked up on camera,

he was obviously not injured.

He was obviously not kidnapped.

He was shopping, and he was eating.

He wasn't a victim.

NARRATOR: Robert Jr. was last seen by one

of Danielle's friends at home on the 24th of August,

two days before the human remains were found in the shed.

The police urgently needed to find him.

NEWS PRESENTER: 26-year-old Robert Marzejka is a person

of interest in this case.

He was driving a white 1999 Ford E250

van with blue duct tape around the driver's side rear window.

NARRATOR: Police circulated Robert Jr.'s

photograph across the country.

Meanwhile, the medical examiner's report

confirmed the bodies in the black bags in the shed

were Danielle and Seren.

It also revealed exactly how they died.

Both Danielle and Seren had been violently beaten.

A rubber hammer covered in blood was found along

with the plastic bags, and they believe that was the weapon

that they'd been attacked with.

They were both wearing T-shirts and underwear.

So authorities believed they'd been

asleep when they were attacked.

They didn't die from the violent blunt force trauma

that they suffered.

According to forensic analysis, they actually suffocated.

They were wrapped in plastic and their mouths

and nose duct-taped.

And then the plastic bag was duct-taped around their necks.

NARRATOR: On August 27, Robert's white van

was spotted in Toledo, Ohio, 80 miles south of Clinton Township.

The police found the van, but it was abandoned.

Robert Jr. was nowhere to be seen.

When the police got the DNA and fingerprint results back

from the crime scene, they were a match

for Robert Jr. The police were now on the hunt

for Danielle's brother.

Police notified employees and security

at bus stations and airports, warning

them to be on the lookout for a potential m*rder suspect.

NARRATOR: August 28, two days after the bodies were found,

Danielle's brother was caught on camera but looked different.

Robert Jr. develops, creates, finds a disguise.

It's a sort of rudimentary disguise-- a wig,

a baseball cap or a hat of some sort, and sunglasses.

NARRATOR: The next day, he walked into a bus station

in Toledo and bought a ticket to Cincinnati.

People working there believed it was Robert Jr.

and reported him to the police.

AVA GLASS: These attempts to disguise his identity

had the unintended opposite effect

of making everybody notice him because he looked so strange.

NARRATOR: When Robert Jr. arrived

at Cincinnati Bus Station, he asked employees

for access to a computer.

They directed him to the library.

He was relaxed and friendly.

He scanned the news, unaware how closely he was being watched.

In reception, the police were waiting.

Unmasked and identified, Robert Jr. was taken back to Detroit.

In search of answers, Robert Jr.'s brother Kevin

called to speak with him in the interview room.

Psychiatric reports declared Robert Jr. was

sane and fit to stand trial.

AVA GLASS: He pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity.

Despite his long mental health struggle,

the argument of the state in this case

was he covered up his crime.

He attempted to hide all evidence of it.

And then he fled.

And they said those were not the actions of an insane person.

NARRATOR: Robert Jr. did not offer up an explanation.

All the surveillance footage could provide

was an insight into his state of mind.

AVA GLASS: He doesn't seem panicked.

He doesn't seem deranged.

He doesn't seem to be lost or confused.

In fact, he seems calm and rational.

He seems to know where he's going.

There's nothing in the footage that

seems to indicate his mental illness is so severe he should

be forgiven for beating his sister and her boyfriend

to death with a hammer and suffocating

them in plastic bags.

NARRATOR: Defense counsel claimed Robert k*lled his sister

and her boyfriend because he thought they were conduits

for voices in his head.

The jury deliberated for just 40 minutes

before finding Robert Jr. guilty--

m*rder in the first degree.

He was sentenced to life in prison without parole.

The family never got a full explanation.

But Dr. Roberta Babb feels the family

dynamic offers some insight.

From what we know, the children responded differently

to the loss of their mother.

Kevin and Danielle appeared to grieve

but managed to continue with their life.

It didn't disrupt it unduly.

Robert Sr. had lost his wife.

He was sleeping on the sofa, drinking excessively.

Robert Jr. had lost his mother and was

sleeping in his own room on his own, left with his own thoughts.

And that must have been incredibly

lonely and isolating for him.

It may not have been that Robert Jr. felt a physical sense

of threat from his younger sister,

but her presence, her relationship, her getting on

with life did pose a threat to his own sense

of his identity, his agency, potentially his own masculinity.

And that may have been something that

activated very murderous thoughts in Robert Jr.

AVA GLASS: They were heartbroken.

They were devastated.

Danielle's brother Kevin, he said, I don't hate Robert,

but he's not my brother anymore.

And I think that gives us a very good picture of how strongly

he felt about what happened.

[theme music]