(eerie music)
- My name is Kelly Ferchau.
I've worked for the public libraries
of Saginaw for 35 years.
Working in a library as old as this
or any building as old as this, I guess,
you always hear about oh, is it haunted?
Are there ghosts?
Do you ever experienced anything
out of the ordinary?
(eerie music)
Every once in awhile, while
we're looking at old newspapers,
we might read something
where someone actually died
in the library, so you
know, then you think
well, maybe that's that
person's spirit is here.
(eerie music)
- I know there are portions of the library
that some of the employees
either try to avoid
or absolutely avoid
because they have experienced
paranormal activity
and were very upset by it.
(eerie music)
- To me, this is one of the
creepiest areas of the library.
I cannot come down here
without getting goose bumps
on my arms and the back of my neck.
One time I was walking
down one of the aisles
and there was someone in front of me,
no one behind me, and I felt something
tugging on the back of my sweater.
And that is a feeling that
you know what that is.
It couldn't have been anything else.
There was no one there.
I turned around, nothing but darkness.
(creepy music)
- Hoyt library has a colorful past.
People talked about some
of the paranormal activity
that was happening at Hoyt.
You didn't hear it all the
time, but one of the things
that I heard was that there was a video,
a short clip online from Hoyt library,
of a chair in the basement,
and it was just spinning.
And so I did go out on the
Internet and I looked at that
and I was quite amazed by it.
Because at that time I
wasn't terribly interested
the paranormal.
I can't really say that
I believed in ghosts,
but I didn't disbelieve.
I'm a believer now.
(drum booms)
- Right now, we're headed
into the fiction room.
This originally was the reading room.
I've only heard one
story about there being
an encounter here.
A patron a few years ago
was down here looking
at works of fiction,
and there was a little girl
sitting here, a little blond girl,
about four years old.
And all I could think is
that maybe it's a little girl
who's waiting for story time.
When this section of the
library was the children's
department, and the
librarian would sit here
on the floor with the children
and read them a story.
(eerie music)
- The area that we're in now
is called the tech attic.
This is really a storage
area for the library.
This is probably the most active
and most disturbing of all
the places in the library
where people have experienced
some kind of haunting.
This particular room has
had everything happen
from books moving by
themselves on the shelf,
footsteps that sound like
someone with hobnail shoes
walking around, when
there's no one in the room,
to lights being messed around with,
turned on, turned off.
When you hit the switch,
the lights go on one way,
and then they go off, and
the only other light switch
is at the bottom of the stairs.
- [Man] When was the
last time that happened?
- Just now, actually, when
we came in the room. (laughs)
Yeah, I'm a little bit
creeped out by it right now.
- This the Michigan room.
Several people who work here
don't like going into this room.
In 2010, I was here.
It was late at night.
The library was about ready to close,
and I was working at the desk.
I looked up and going across
inside the room
was the shadow figure of a woman
in a long dress.
She just went from this side to that side
and that's all there was.
Here on the grand staircase
when I leave at night and
other people leave at night
we always had a feeling that somebody is
up on the landing,
just staring at us,
waiting for us to leave.
And I never look back
and I never look at the window,
just in case there's a reflection.
We always get this feeling
that we, the living,
we have the building during the day
and there's like a shift change when
we close the building at night.
And sometimes I think they're a little bit
more anxious to get the
building to themselves
and you just feel it when
I walk down the stairs
that it's time for us all to leave.
(haunting music)
(eerie music)
- One of the things that
I find so fascinating
about this location specifically
is how many different spirits are said
to haunt the Hoyt library.
How many different apparitions
have been identified.
And one has to wonder, how
could there be so many ghosts
trapped within the walls
of one building like that.
What's the cause of that?
And one of the theories I have is
you gotta consider multiple things.
The land that the Hoyt was built on
at one point used to be a jail
where many people were m*rder*d violently
in the 1800s.
On top of that, people have died here
since it's been a library, so you've got
to wonder if that plays a part.
And it's also a theory that
spirits can be attached
to certain objects, and the Hoyt
has one of the biggest collections,
if not the biggest
collection of Saginaw history
and Saginaw's past.
So all of this together
could really account for why
there's been so many different things
seen within this building.
We just want to find the answers.
We want to document and get some evidence.
- The hard drives on all
the digital recorders
have been wiped clean.
We're ready to record all night.
We've got fully charged infrared lights
and fresh batteries in
all the rest of the gear.
The tripod cameras have been set up.
And that's actually one
of the biggest challenges
that we have this evening
is the building itself
is so large, we have more
rooms than we have cameras.
But we've got the live
feed broadcasting in here.
And with all the stories that we've heard
about this building, with
all the history behind it,
I know it's gonna be a good investigation.
I'm ready to go.
- Looking at this picture, I can imagine
the amount of blood, sweat, and tears
that went into creating this building.
Especially when you get
into all these little
detailed carvings in the archway
and all on the exterior of this building.
Kind of makes you wonder
if any of these gentlemen
have returned and they're the source
of the paranormal activity that
the staff here at the
library are experiencing.
- I'm really excited
about this investigation.
I've heard rumors that this
place is haunted for years.
Read all kinds of articles in the paper.
Heard all kinds of stories.
We've got employees who have
given us eyewitness claims.
We just want to validate
those on both audio and video.
We owe it to them.
One of the things that's
most exciting about this is
we've never had a place
where there's so many
professional people who've come forward
and stake their reputation
on the stories that
they're telling us, being
in our documentary and all.
I can't wait to see what we find.
(haunting music)
(drum booms)
(dramatic orchestral music)
- Alright, guys, this is
one of the biggest places
we've ever investigated.
Thousands of square feet, multiple floors,
and dozens of different rooms.
The only possible way
that we're gonna cover
all this ground before the sun comes up,
we all need to split
up and go our own way.
Just be cautious.
Be careful walking
around here in the dark.
Stay in radio communication.
Now, this is important.
Severe thunderstorm warnings
have been issued for tonight.
There's warnings all
over the radio and TV.
We all know that thunderstorms
cause a huge spike
in the electromagnetic field,
giving spirits more energy to manifest.
Alright, that being said,
we're all geared up.
We've got the guys on the monitors here.
I'm ready to go.
You ready?
- Good.
- [Steve] Tim?
Josh?
- Ready.
- Alright, let's go.
Hoyt Library investigation.
Let's do it.
(intense orchestral music)
(spooky music)
(haunting music)
(drum booms)
- This is Tim.
EVP session on the mezzanine.
Do you enjoy seeing
people come through here?
Remind you of when you worked here?
Or remind you of when you frequented here?
I gotta say, this is a
pretty cool building.
A lot of photographs in here.
Lots of generations
have been through here.
- The reports of activity in
this vicinity of the building
is that an angry man
has been sighted on this staircase
and up on the landing as well.
They say that they hear his boots
stomping up and down the stairs,
just really heavy footsteps
and they get a negative vibe
and just kind of feel
unwanted in this area
when he's around.
So let's try and establish contact
and figure out what's happening here.
(spooky music)
(equipment humming)
- Hello?
(equipment humming)
Is there anyone down here with me?
- I can only imagine how
lonely it would be in here,
year after year, wandering.
Maybe you're confused.
Maybe you don't realize
that you're in a cycle
of day after day.
I couldn't imagine that.
- People that have to use this stairwell
have complained that you make them feel
nervous, anxious,
and flat out frightened.
Being that they work here
and that they have to use these stairs,
you can see where that's a problem.
Some of them like to
refer to you as the bully.
They say that you make
them feel intimidated.
So I'm not going to label you that way
until I have some kind
of interaction with you.
And at the same time,
I do want to tell you
that you're not gonna
bully me off these stairs.
- Heard a lot about this room.
(equipment humming)
Tools get moved around.
Are you working on something?
(spooky silence)
- Are you playing games?
I enjoy games.
(switch clicks)
Okay.
- They say by the period-type
clothing they've seen you in
and the heavy boots, they feel like
you're one of the older spirits here
at the Hoyt Library.
That being said, you
probably have more of a right
to be here than I,
so if I seem confrontational
it's only because I want
to maybe provoke you
to come out.
(spooky silence)
Do you like having the
reputation of being a creeper?
(static and garbled voices from stereo)
(silence)
- That was creepy.
(drum booms)
(static)
(distorted pulsing)
(drum booms)
(creepy music)
(police siren)
- This is the microfiche room.
What microfiche is is an archival system
that was developed for
documenting and chronicling
newspapers from the last century on film.
People can use it to do
research on their family,
burial plots, obituaries,
and things of that nature.
This is one of the most active
rooms in the entire library.
In fact, one year during
their annual fundraiser,
A Haunting at the Hoyt,
there was a tour that came through
and the tour guide
brought a group in here.
And while he was describing to them
some of the activity that would happen,
sure enough, computers started turning on,
electronics went haywire.
And the people in the
group got so frightened,
they left the room, got in
their cars, and went home.
- The people that work
down here have told us
they know you're here.
That somebody's here.
They feel that you're always
standing right behind them
while they're working.
Even walking behind them as
they travel through this space.
They'd like us to try
and obtain some answers
on who you are, what
you're doing down here.
- Librarians have stated
that they can hear
floorboards creaking up here when they're
getting ready to close down for the day,
almost as if someone is
pacing back an forth.
Some have even said they've
heard a female voice.
(camera shutter clicks)
- I'm here to document some of the claims
(camera shutter clicks)
that I've heard about this room.
Computers turning on.
Screens being activated.
Pretty outrageous claims.
But if you could do that for me tonight,
that'd be pretty special.
(camera shutter clicks)
Could you move something for me?
(camera shutter clicks)
- Do you like the employees down here?
(eerie silence)
Or perhaps maybe you feel
like this is your space
and you don't like them being down here?
(eerie silence)
You know, I've got a feeling
you've been here a lot
longer than all these computers
and all this technology.
If you could try to
tell me what this portion of the basement
used to be used for
or why it's important to you,
that could help tell us a lot.
Maybe resolve a conflict,
if indeed there is one.
- Maybe you can tell me why
you're pacing back and forth.
(creepy music)
Are you waiting for someone?
Or something?
- [Man] Upon the initial
review of this footage,
we believed the flickering lights
to be lightning from the storm outside.
Taking a second look,
we realized something
was actually tampering with the lights
in the fiction room down below.
Observe the slow motion replay.
(creepy music)
(static)
- You know, one thing I
gotta point out here is,
especially looking at this tower,
there's a lot of high voltage
electronics down here.
And side effects of a high
EMF field such as this
is paranoia, feeling of being watched,
and if you're supersensitive
to it, even nausea.
So if you're down here putting
in eight, nine hour shifts
five, six days a week, it could
probably be pretty intense.
That could describe why they feel that way
or why I feel that way right now even.
But on the other hand,
there's definitely--
(fluorescent bulb buzzes)
(switch clicks)
You getting this?
(eerie silence)
(drum booms)
(distorted pulsing)
(thunder booming)
(suspenseful orchestral music)
(cymbals crashing)
(drum booms)
(footsteps)
- This is Prozak now
entering the fiction room.
(switch clicks)
Stormy Weather, tell me about it.
(floor creaks)
(haunting music)
So, as I said, this is now
known as the fiction room,
but nearly 100 years
ago, this was referred to
as the children's section.
Over here by the fireplace,
you'd have a teacher
or possibly a librarian
who would be over here
reading stories to a
small group of children
who would be gathered over here
in front of the fireplace,
listening to stories and playing games.
How that really correlates to modern day
is employees will swear
they hear giggling,
laughter, they'll hear little
feet running up and down
the aisles here when
they're about to close.
And an apparition of a
little girl in a white dress
has been seen by dozens of
employees over the decades.
Let's see if we can make contact.
(elevator doors rumbling)
- We got a motion
detector going off in the
government documents room, let's go.
(door handle clicks)
(intensifying creepy music)
(door slams)
(intensifying creepy music)
(alarm siren gets louder)
(silence)
Nothing looks out of place.
I don't see any books that have fallen.
Something must have crossed
in front of that beam
to set off the alarm.
(haunting music)
It looks like someone was a little curious
about this device that was set up
by one of our team members earlier.
I imagine it must have
startled you when it went off.
Let's reset it.
(beep)
- You're probably wondering
who the big stranger is
here shining a bright light around.
I don't mean to shine it
in your face, if I am.
Then again, I can't see you.
Can you tell me what stories
used to be read here?
And in front of the old fireplace?
Maybe what your favorite book was?
What kind of games did
you guys used to play?
It's a pretty big room.
It'd be perfect for a good
ole game of hide-and-seek.
(eerie silence)
I feel like we've been playing
hide and seek all night.
Door over here.
I tell you what.
We can play a game.
I'm gonna knock on something
and if one of you can knock back,
I've got a present here on my shoulder
that I'll leave for you guys to play with.
Sound fun?
Let's try it.
I'm gonna knock.
If you can knock back,
I'm gonna leave this gift.
(knocking)
- Are you avoiding me?
(thumping)
(paper rustling)
- Come on.
You know, just before
we came in this room,
I was grabbing my flashlight
here and my recorder
to come in here and we heard little feet
running through the room,
much like many of the people
at the Hoyt have heard,
so we know somebody's in here.
I'm gonna knock one more time.
If you knock back, like I said,
I'm gonna give you a present, okay?
I promise.
It's toy, you'll love it.
Let's try it one more time.
(knocking)
- Is there something about
this book in particular
that you wanted me to see?
Maybe (switch clicks)
you're just trying to get my attention.
(alarm wailing)
(silence)
(intensifying music)
Really?
- You guys must not want--
(thump)
Okay.
So maybe we are playing hide-and-go-seek.
Can you do that one more time
so I can tell where it's coming from?
(knocking)
(total silence)
(distant voice)
(drum booms)
The childlike laugh had
actually startled me.
Catching the audio evidence solidified
that there was indeed a spirit interacting
with me in the fiction room.
Perhaps this was the infamous little girl
in the white dress seen by
staff and patrons alike.
(distorted voice)
Okay, well, a deal's a deal.
As promised,
I got a gift
that I'm gonna leave
over by the fireplace.
I'm not sure who's knocking, but if it's
the little girl in the white dress,
(unzipping)
I think I have something real special.
I have a little girl in a
white dress here in my hand.
She's over 100 years old.
(music box playing)
The only problem is I don't have a name
picked out for her.
She didn't come with one.
So I'm gonna leave this here
(music box playing)
and feel free to come play with her
or whatever you'd like to do.
(music box playing)
(drum booms)
(total silence)
(clicking)
(hum of monitor turning on)
(thunder booming)
(raining)
(eerie music)
(haunting music)
This is Prozak entering the local history
and genealogy department.
So, this is one of the
most active portions
of the library upstairs here.
There's been reports of
an apparition by many
that is said to haunt this location.
As well as many stories
of many paranormal events
that have taken place.
Let's see what we can find.
(elevator door thumps closed)
(drum booms)
So this is probably my favorite story
that I've heard about
this building, period.
They were doing some
renovations and they had
an electrician come in to
install some wire in here.
And as the electrician
stuck his hand in the hole
to connect these wires,
he felt an ice cold hand
grab his and just squeeze it.
The man screamed, threw his tools,
and just ran out of the building.
(haunting music)
- I'm here to establish contact
with the man who's said to
haunt this wing of the library.
(haunting music)
The staff described you
as a very well-dressed man
in a suit.
(haunting music)
Are you the architect?
Or the designer of the Hoyt?
- I'm told there's an apparition
that dwells up here that's referred to as
the helpful librarian.
The patrons of the Hoyt
Library will come up here
to research or perhaps work on a project
and on the way out, they'd like to thank
the old woman who was so helpful and nice.
The only problem with
this is there is no woman
that works up here.
So I'd like to ask you if
you could perhaps help me.
Me and my friends are working
on a project ourselves
about the strange and
unusual things that happen
at the historic Hoyt Library.
- You can answer some questions for me.
Maybe help me and the staff
better understand who you are,
what draws you here.
(thump)
Is that you in the corner?
You don't have to be frightened.
I'm not trying to corner you.
Come toward the sound of my voice.
Or maybe come take a seat
and the two of us could--
(haunting music)
Dude!
(drum booms)
(static)
- [Man] Nobody was in the auditorium
except Tim and the cameraman.
Recall Tim sliding the
chair out from the desk
upon entering and facing
it toward the room
before conducting his EVP session.
(haunting music)
When he turns back to his
seat, he is astonished
to find it returned to its original place.
(haunting music)
- Jesse Hoyt was president
of the Pere Marquette Railroad
for eight years, until he passed away.
That's better known as
the Potter Street Station.
I know it's late.
It's after hours.
But I could sure use some
advice or some direction.
Where might I search in this
building for the answers
that myself, my team, and
the staff are looking for?
CK Eddy,
very prominent member of
early Saginaw society.
This room is dedicated to the memory
of Harriet Hough Ames,
the first librarian of the Hoyt Library.
Harriet, is that you?
Are you in fact the helpful librarian?
I apologize for making assumptions.
If that's not your
name, please correct me.
Did you hear that?
(drum booms)
It seems my talking aloud
had disgruntled the spirit
that is said to haunt the
history and genealogy department
of the Hoyt Library.
(distant distorted hushing)
(static)
(switch clicks)
(switch clicks)
(switch clicks)
(switch clicks)
(drum booms)
(drum booms)
(thumping)
(thumping)
(drum booms)
This is crazy.
- [Adam] Yeah.
- I mean, I expected a lot
of of the Hoyt Library,
but I cannot believe how much
evidence we've already caught.
I don't know if it's
the storm or what it is.
So I called you up here because I want
to send you up to the attic.
- [Adam] Okay.
- [Steve] Okay, now the attic
has been virtually untouched
for the last 125 years.
- [Adam] Perfect.
- [Steve] So therefore,
if there are spirits
in that part of the building, they're not
used to people walking around
and going through there.
So really dig in that attic
and go in all the nooks
and crannies and see what
you can kick loose up there.
- Definitely.
- Also, that being said,
be careful up there.
Because I'm not sure about
how it is structurally.
I'm gonna head down into the basement
into the archive.
That's where all the things
are collected and stored
here at the Hoyt, and for
that reason I feel like
who knows what I might encounter?
But keep in contact with me on the radio,
let me know how it is,
and let's keep it going.
- Let's do it.
(thunder cracks and rumbles)
(raining)
(clanking)
(intense creepy music)
- So we're down to the archives right now.
This is the most feared
location in the Hoyt Library.
Employees will make almost any excuse
to not come down here for any reason.
Could be attributed to the old
relics that were stored here,
the oldest things that the
Hoyt has in their collection
is stored here, a lot of
things symbolic to death.
Obituaries, funeral
directories, grave plots,
the list goes on.
It's also tucked away in
the darkest corner, so I can
understand why people would
be afraid to come back here.
However, they believe
there is something here.
Let's see what we can find.
(creepy music)
Is anybody here with me?
(creepy music)
(camera beeping and shutter clicking)
Pardon my intrusion.
Got flashing lights and somebody talking
in a loud tone in a library.
I could understand how that
would seem disrespectful,
but I assure you it's not.
Saginaw evening news, 1890.
- This is Adam heading into
the attic of the Hoyt library.
(creaking)
Oh, really watch your head in here.
(clanking)
sh**t, I just dropped my recorder.
(shuffling)
(grunting)
I can't even feel it down there.
I think it goes down pretty far.
(sighing)
I don't know if I'm
gonna be able to get it.
I found it!
Sorry, did I scare you?
Sorry, come on.
- People are very afraid
to come down here.
And I'm here to try to figure out why.
I know it's a spooky
portion of the building.
(camera shutter clicking)
But the people that work here
swear it's more than just that.
They feel that they're not
alone when they are here.
Some of these dates on these books go back
150 years.
- Oh, wow.
This must be for the skylight.
Take a look in there.
(clank)
- Allow me to introduce myself.
My name is Steve.
And I'm here just for tonight.
I'm here to try to find answers
for the staff of the Hoyt library
who swear
there are supernatural events taking place
throughout the building,
and particularly this room.
(camera shutter clicking)
Can you show yourself to me?
I promise I won't be afraid,
nor will I be startled.
You can move an object.
You can use your voice to
try to speak or communicate.
Anything you feel comfortable with doing.
(thump)
(camera shutter clicking)
- You gotta be careful up here.
(clicking)
(static)
- You can follow me if you want.
You can stand in front of me.
You can tap me on the shoulder.
I'm here as a friend of the library
to try to reach out to you.
Maybe there's more than one of you.
That's fine, too.
- Hello?
(creepy music)
Who's up here?
(creepy music)
Did you want us to come in this room?
(creepy music)
Are you trying to lead us somewhere?
- Oh my god.
(eerie music)
It's got plastic on it,
so I think I can touch it.
(rustling)
Carried by a BC Carter
through the Civil w*r.
He was a member of the First Michigan
Engineer and Mechanic's Regiment.
Wow, look at this, the history
that we're in right now.
I mean, somebody carried this object
through the entire Civil w*r.
Just a little piece of home.
Imagine the sentimental
value that this has,
that all these objects
have, and you wonder why
this is the most active
portion of the building.
(eerie music)
(drum booms)
(total silence)
(drum booms)
(spooky silence)
(raining)
That's weird.
Just felt like something kind
of brushing in the face here.
Kind of felt like cobwebs,
but not quite cobwebs.
But I don't feel anything.
I don't see anything here.
Felt weird.
Hello?
The folks that work down here,
there's only three offices
in this particular department
and they're all pretty
nervous about working here.
This is known to be
definitely one of the most
haunted sections.
I know we say that a lot
during this investigation,
but there are so many spots
and so many rooms with activity here.
So many different claims.
So this is one of the older
parts of the building.
I'm guessing it has some
of the oldest spirits.
A lot of things from the past here
collected and stored.
Maybe you have some interest?
Maybe these things remind you
of your particular time frame?
Things that you're familiar with?
(switch clicks)
East Saginaw.
- I've had the opportunity
to speak with several
of the nice people that work down here.
They say they can sense your presence.
(spooky silence)
Sometimes their belongings
will go missing.
Turn up in a different part of the office.
Sometimes never at all.
- Look at this, old dumbwaiter.
All the old buildings had these.
Made people's lives a lot easier,
sending things up and
down the little elevator
instead of carrying heavy
things up the steps.
(clanking)
Makes perfect sense in a library
with all those heavy books.
- Earlier in the night,
when we were given the tour,
I guess one of the employees
that work in this office here
was digitizing some old film cans
that were donated by a private collector
of Old Saginaw City.
And while he was processing,
digitizing these films,
a very prominent figure of Saginaw's past,
when his name would be
mentioned, this light here
above where he was seated,
would begin to flicker.
At first, he thought okay well,
maybe it's just a coincidence.
Well, after five or six
times of this happening,
he started to get pretty spooked out.
And the gentleman told us
that about another dozen times
throughout these films, it
would continue to happen,
only when his name was mentioned.
So that's pretty spooky.
- Do you like having the
company of the staff down here?
Or maybe you like it
better when they leave?
(clicking)
Typing?
(clicking)
Hello?
It stopped.
- Now that is real creepy.
Look at this.
These are all the collections of where
people are buried, all the old cemeteries.
We have Forest Lawn, see
several others down here.
(haunting music)
Even got some film cans here.
Saginaw city cemeteries.
It's amazing.
You're literally looking at thousands
of people's resting places.
- Excuse me.
(curtain rustling)
- I'm sure you've witnessed
quite a bit of change
in this library.
Do you like change?
Or do you prefer things
the way they used to be?
(static)
(pulsing)
(creepy music)
(creaking)
(drum booms)
- [Man] After reviewing all the footage
from the infrared stationary cameras,
we found ourselves in total disbelief.
Finally, after all the
stories and eyewitness claims,
we had visual evidence
of the spirit referred to
as the helpful librarian.
(distorted pulsing)
(drum booms)
- I know a lot of heart and soul
was put into the creation
of this building.
I say building, it's much
more than just a building
to the community, to myself, the staff.
It's a big part of our
history here in Saginaw.
So I know some of that heart
and soul has to remain,
the energy has to remain here.
If there's anything that anyone
would like to say
or a message perhaps,
please feel free to speak to me
and trust that I am a friend here.
We're only going to be
visiting just for tonight.
And then I promise you,
the nights will go back
to being quiet, peaceful,
and most of all go back to being yours.
I know there's been others
that have come here,
probably asked you similar questions
and asked you to do similar things.
(drum booms)
(distorted pulsing)
(drum booms)
(distorted pulsing)
This would be a beautiful place to spend
eternity.
(eerie music)
And I could understand that.
(eerie music)
The people that work here,
it's not that they're afraid,
they would just love to know more about
why you're here.
They love the building as much as you do.
And I think if you guys
could somehow connect
it could be even a better
experience for both.
They definitely respect you.
They view the spirits, for the most part,
of the Hoyt to be very kind
and part of the building that it is,
the historic Hoyt library.
(drum booms)
(eerie music)
(drum booms)
A Haunting at the Hoyt Library (2015)
Moderator: Maskath3